Possible NGC & ANACS Counterfeit Slab Numbers *CONFIRMED FAKE BY NGC*

UtahCoinUtahCoin Posts: 5,274 ✭✭✭✭
The seller in China where that fake slab came from sent me some pictures of other slabs. I gave him the impression that I might want to buy "big" quantities of his admitted counterfeit slabs and coins. He sent lots of pictures and I transcribed the slab details and have posted them below. Take this information at face value for what it is. He is willing to sell me any of these at prices far below what a genuine coin would cost. Also attached is a picture of some of the slabs he claims are his.


NGC has confirmed that both the coin and slab shown here are counterfeit. Told you so, told you so.....

NGC
1795 Bust Dollar AU55 1871265-009
1795 Bust AU55 1515842-002
1795 Bust AU50 562290-001
1795 Bust AU55 1925095-002
1796 Bust XF40 398818-005
Trade Dollars
1877 S Trade Dollar AU55 562449-008
1877 S MS62 1500053-004
1876 S MS61 3003606-008
1875 S MS61 3003606-008
1877 S MS60 3022418-004
1877 S MS63 1850580-010
1875 S XF45 2068372-004

ANACS
1801 Bust Dollar VF20 2727654 All Old Style Slab
1800 Bust VF35 2820185
1875 CC Trade AU58 Details Cleaned 2951037
1877 S MS60 Details Cleaned DDR 2965234
1878 S AU55 Details Cleaned 2964950
1878 S AU58 Details Cleaned 2951825
1878 S AU55 Details Cleaned 2951825
ANACS Trade Dollars (Cont.)
1878 S EF40 Details Cleaned 2951835
1875 CC AU55 Details Cleaned 2909411
1873 S EF45 Details Cleaned 1504664
1878 S EF45 2731036
1873 CC EF40 Details Cleaned 2950086
1875 CC AU50 Details Corroded 1504683
image
I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector.
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5 for $260. And again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902 for $27!
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Comments

  • SeattleSlammerSeattleSlammer Posts: 8,885 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image
  • Jesus.
    image
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  • seateddimeseateddime Posts: 6,171 ✭✭✭
    here we go!!!
    I seldom check PM's but do check emails often [email protected]

    Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.

    Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
  • DoogyDoogy Posts: 4,573
    I'm not all that shocked, China is starting to churn out quite a bit of fake NGC, ANACS and PCGS slabs. it won't be long until we start seeing a lot of them here.

    it is sad however that our hobby is coming to this.

    Fart and the world farts with you, smile and you smile alone.
  • It was just a matter of time. Thanks for the post UtahCoin.
  • STONESTONE Posts: 15,431
    Now we just need to be that much more careful or the grading services need to add extra security (tamper proof) on their slabs.

    Sad, sad , sad
  • I knew this was coming. recent posts and threads were filled with the signs. wow. this could get ugly for us all. did you send the info to the graders that have slabbs faked? if not, you should. someone should. this is our hobby, and we should not stand for this. fake coins are 1 thing, fake slabs, WTF!
    image
    "America is all about speed. Hot, nasty, bad @-- speed."
    Eleanor Roosevelt, 1936
  • FrankcoinsFrankcoins Posts: 4,569 ✭✭✭
    All the fake coins in the photo have that "dull dead gray" look. Collectors who have learned to "buy the coin, not the slab" will not be fooled.

    The parasite "dealers" who base their business model on flipping plastic based on a number on the label, without having a clue how to grade or detect fakes are understandably messing their pants over this.
    Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
  • Well, it's good to see that no one is calling on pcgs or ngc to fix it. It's happening to them to, and harming them even more. But, I wouldn't be surprised if someone harboring ill will towards them thinks they should solve this.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image
  • There are times when I wish I wasn't (almost) always right image I recall discussing this very issue with some board members at a show quite a few years ago, with one additional caveat. I am also waiting, heck it may be already upon us, when some slimeballs get their hands on a latest generation CNC machine, and start making MS 64 65 and 66 quality Morgan and Peace Dollars that are virtually indistinguishable from the real thing. I hope that i am wrong, but the technology is available to do it, and I fear that once a group trying to accomplish this gets a numismatically intelligent member in their ranks it will happen.

    The slab issue is bad news. With so many millions of slabs extant, and with the great variation of fonts, colors, bar coding etc. that one runs across, once again I think this will be a problem that is only going to get worse.

    The greatest danger I see for the hobby is a nefarious group getting together that is capable of making both the coins and the slabs. If they were smart, they would proceed somewhat slowly, and over the longer term could polute the hobby in a big way. I know that I could easily find 1000 common date Morgans in say MS65, where the type of slab, from which company , with the proper grade for the coin inside matches. You buy silver @$15 US/ ounce and sell your "product" at close to even bluesheet and it can add up to a whole bunch of money quickly.

    Then again maybe I'm totally off base.

    Greg
  • If I had the know how to manufacture fake slabs and counterfeit coins, I would certainly be able to replicate the Pamp Suisse and Credit Suisse one and ten ounce gold bars that come with an Assay Card. The number of such bullion bars dwarfs the certified coin marketplace and the customer base for the bars is huge and is less likely to spot a fake than a coin collector can.
  • True, but once it was suspected, all you would have to do is toss it on a scale, and the fakes are instantly busted. I think so anyhow image
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 21,602 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thank goodness there are no PCGS coins in there. At least we're safe!
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • This sucks!!! Thanks for the info!!!
    SEE the BULL!! BUY the BULL!! BE the BULL!! Do your homework first. And, you will learn alot!!
  • UtahCoinUtahCoin Posts: 5,274 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>There are times when I wish I wasn't (almost) always right image I recall discussing this very issue with some board members at a show quite a few years ago, with one additional caveat. I am also waiting, heck it may be already upon us, when some slimeballs get their hands on a latest generation CNC machine, and start making MS 64 65 and 66 quality Morgan and Peace Dollars that are virtually indistinguishable from the real thing. I hope that i am wrong, but the technology is available to do it, and I fear that once a group trying to accomplish this gets a numismatically intelligent member in their ranks it will happen.

    The slab issue is bad news. With so many millions of slabs extant, and with the great variation of fonts, colors, bar coding etc. that one runs across, once again I think this will be a problem that is only going to get worse.

    The greatest danger I see for the hobby is a nefarious group getting together that is capable of making both the coins and the slabs. If they were smart, they would proceed somewhat slowly, and over the longer term could polute the hobby in a big way. I know that I could easily find 1000 common date Morgans in say MS65, where the type of slab, from which company , with the proper grade for the coin inside matches. You buy silver @$15 US/ ounce and sell your "product" at close to even bluesheet and it can add up to a whole bunch of money quickly.

    Then again maybe I'm totally off base.

    Greg >>



    A CNC won't give you the flow lines that you want in a MS coin. The private mints around the country could certainly make coins if they wanted. We looked into buying a private mint in Las Vegas a couple of years ago. They had a few coin presses that came from the SF mint. I asked what would prevent them from making rare date Morgan Dollars. The reply, "Prison".
    I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector.
    Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5 for $260. And again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902 for $27!
  • Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear that the "group" would manufacture coin dies and then use presses to make the coins.

    Greg
  • BECOKABECOKA Posts: 17,115
    Wow, have you contacted ANACS and NGC about this?

    I assume this is why you asked a lawyer to PM you?
  • Wow what a sad day.

    imageimageimageimage
  • thanks for posting and for looking out for fellow collectors.
    image
    ----------------------------------------
    jr
  • IGWTIGWT Posts: 5,057
    -- "this is our hobby, and we should not stand for this. fake coins are 1 thing, fake slabs, WTF!" --

    Interesting priority.
  • Let's just see them try to make a CAC sticker.
    Select Rarities -- DMPLs and VAMs
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  • RussRuss Posts: 50,068 ✭✭


    << <i>Well, it's good to see that no one is calling on pcgs or ngc to fix it. >>



    What does PCGS need to fix?

    Russ, NCNE
  • UtahCoinUtahCoin Posts: 5,274 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Well, it's good to see that no one is calling on pcgs or ngc to fix it. >>



    What does PCGS need to fix?

    Russ, NCNE >>



    NGC & ANACS have been notified and PCGS was given a heads up.
    I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector.
    Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5 for $260. And again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902 for $27!
  • robkoolrobkool Posts: 5,440 ✭✭✭
    WOW !!! Not only these are fake, but I also came across fake PCGS (old rattler) holders too... Not good for the collectors...


  • << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>Well, it's good to see that no one is calling on pcgs or ngc to fix it. >>



    What does PCGS need to fix?

    Russ, NCNE >>



    NGC & ANACS have been notified and PCGS was given a heads up. >>



    PCGS is next.
    image
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  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 21,325 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Well, it's good to see that no one is calling on pcgs or ngc to fix it. >>



    What does PCGS need to fix?

    Russ, NCNE >>



    Russ, they don't have to fix anything and that I agree with. Perhaps however, they could imbed a security thread
    or such in their slabs that CANNOT be counterfeited (is that possible). Or perhaps they can redesign their label so that
    the background print cannot be duplicated. Now I'm talking like the Bureau of Engraving now does with our paper
    money. Some such imbedding, etc would help from now forward.
    bob
    BST deals: Dozens of buys/sells. Will provide a list upon request.
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), [email protected]


  • << <i>

    << <i>Well, it's good to see that no one is calling on pcgs or ngc to fix it. >>



    What does PCGS need to fix?

    Russ, NCNE >>



    Correct.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image
  • RussRuss Posts: 50,068 ✭✭


    << <i>Not only these are fake, but I also came across fake PCGS (old rattler) holders too... >>



    Recently?

    Russ, NCNE
  • BECOKABECOKA Posts: 17,115


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>Well, it's good to see that no one is calling on pcgs or ngc to fix it. >>



    What does PCGS need to fix?

    Russ, NCNE >>



    NGC & ANACS have been notified and PCGS was given a heads up. >>



    PCGS is next. >>



    CRUD those look a lot like current PCGS slabs.

    Guess they will have to change them again and start doing the top view inserts.image
  • Now it comes to me that I will only buy PCGS SLABS,checking cert verification first!.even at coin shows is this kinda crap going on,sometimes I asked the dealer why the price of the slab is so low,he responds with"I'm just looking to get rid of it"...yea right knowing damn well he got suckerd into a counterfiet somewhere down the road or actually trying to make a fast buck on some innocent buyer who knows nothing about the situation yet out there in the real world..BUYER BEWARE,IF IT LOOKS TO BE GOOD TO BE TRUE,GET SOMEONE TO VERIFY IT FIRST!image
    achillesaero
  • BECOKABECOKA Posts: 17,115


    << <i>Now it comes to me that I will only buy PCGS SLABS,checking cert verification first!.even at coin shows is this kinda crap going on,sometimes I asked the dealer why the price of the slab is so low,he responds with"I'm just looking to get rid of it"...yea right knowing damn well he got suckerd into a counterfiet somewhere down the road or actually trying to make a fast buck on some innocent buyer who knows nothing about the situation yet out there in the real world..BUYER BEWARE,IF IT LOOKS TO BE GOOD TO BE TRUE,GET SOMEONE TO VERIFY IT FIRST!image >>



    Learning the series you collect and what to look for can't hurt either.
  • At a minimum, NGC may want to consider also adding a public cert verification on their website. The crooks could still get around it by using ones that verify to real coins, but will slow down the others.
    Select Rarities -- DMPLs and VAMs
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  • RussRuss Posts: 50,068 ✭✭


    << <i>CRUD those look a lot like current PCGS slabs. >>



    So do the slabs that Amos sells.



    << <i>Now it comes to me that I will only buy PCGS SLABS,checking cert verification first!. >>



    The counterfeiters are using legit cert numbers so, if they move to PCGS, checking won't do any good.

    Russ, NCNE
  • Than maybe PCGS and others should include in thier grading papers on file why the coin graded what it did,like some evident marks on the coin on file, only known by pcgs and other grading companies when asked by the ownwer with proof of the coin first.
    achillesaero
  • BECOKABECOKA Posts: 17,115


    << <i>Than maybe PCGS and others should include in thier grading papers on file why the coin graded what it did,like some evident marks on the coin on file, only known by pcgs and other grading companies when asked by the ownwer with proof of the coin first. >>



    It would not hurt if True View became a standard part of the grading service so when someone checks the cert number they can verify it is the same coin that was graded.


  • << <i>

    << <i>Than maybe PCGS and others should include in thier grading papers on file why the coin graded what it did,like some evident marks on the coin on file, only known by pcgs and other grading companies when asked by the ownwer with proof of the coin first. >>



    It would not hurt if True View became a standard part of the grading service so when someone checks the cert number they can verify it is the same coin that was graded. >>



    Considering how inexpensive it is to do digital imaging and store the files these days, would make sense to to at least do some basic imaging. A scan of each side may be adequate. The problem might be in the ease of adding a scratch or nick to make it match for a particularly expensive coin that is not very public, like in a registry set or dealer's inventory.
    Select Rarities -- DMPLs and VAMs
    NSDR - Life Member
    SSDC - Life Member
    ANA - Pay As I Go Member
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 17,621 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I wonder how many of these fake slabs are now making their way into the marketplace via the flea market route?
    All glory is fleeting.
  • BECOKABECOKA Posts: 17,115


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>Than maybe PCGS and others should include in thier grading papers on file why the coin graded what it did,like some evident marks on the coin on file, only known by pcgs and other grading companies when asked by the ownwer with proof of the coin first. >>



    It would not hurt if True View became a standard part of the grading service so when someone checks the cert number they can verify it is the same coin that was graded. >>



    Considering how inexpensive it is to do digital imaging and store the files these days, would make sense to to at least do some basic imaging. A scan of each side may be adequate. The problem might be in the ease of adding a scratch or nick to make it match for a particularly expensive coin that is not very public, like in a registry set or dealer's inventory. >>



    Yeah but for the average collector it would be not worth the trouble to forge all of the toning details etc...

    For the big money collectors they will have either the knowledge or representation to verify the coin before purchasing.
  • LongacreLongacre Posts: 16,704 ✭✭✭
    I remember way back when we just had to worry about puttied coins. image
    Always took candy from strangers
    Didn't wanna get me no trade
    Never want to be like papa
    Working for the boss every night and day
    --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 27,028 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thank you, Sir!
    ... --- .-.. --- -. --. --..-- .- -. -.. - .... .- -. -.- ... ..-. --- .-. .- .-.. .-.. - .... . ..-. .. ... .... ..__.
  • John Dillinger was once asked "why do you rob banks?"
    His answer "because that's where the money is".
    Counterfeiters have concentrated their efforts on PCGS slabs
    for the same reason.
    How often have you seen the question "how did this get
    into a PCGS slab?
    image

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 27,028 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>Than maybe PCGS and others should include in thier grading papers on file why the coin graded what it did,like some evident marks on the coin on file, only known by pcgs and other grading companies when asked by the ownwer with proof of the coin first. >>



    It would not hurt if True View became a standard part of the grading service so when someone checks the cert number they can verify it is the same coin that was graded. >>



    Considering how inexpensive it is to do digital imaging and store the files these days, would make sense to to at least do some basic imaging. A scan of each side may be adequate. The problem might be in the ease of adding a scratch or nick to make it match for a particularly expensive coin that is not very public, like in a registry set or dealer's inventory. >>



    That's why our old ANACS certifications were printed on photographs of the actual coin, so that you could tell that it was the same coins that the authenticators had seen. Apparently when slabbing began it was decided that this was no longer necessary.
    TD
    ... --- .-.. --- -. --. --..-- .- -. -.. - .... .- -. -.- ... ..-. --- .-. .- .-.. .-.. - .... . ..-. .. ... .... ..__.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 27,028 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i><STRONG>John Dillinger was once asked "why do you rob banks?"
    His answer "because that's where the money is".
    Counterfeiters have concentrated their efforts on PCGS slabs
    for the same reason.
    How often have you seen the question "how did this get
    into a PCGS slab?</STRONG> >>



    That wasn't Dillinger, it was WIllie Sutton.
    Unlike Dillinger, he never harmed a victim, other than monetarily.
    TD
    ... --- .-.. --- -. --. --..-- .- -. -.. - .... .- -. -.- ... ..-. --- .-. .- .-.. .-.. - .... . ..-. .. ... .... ..__.
  • this forum could be a chinese fake before long...run for it.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 27,028 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I referred these threads to a colleague, who pointed out that had any collector inadvertantly purchased one of these fakes from a brick and mortar coin shop, instead of from some stranger in China and/or on eBay, he would have recourse from the seller.

    I am proud to be a member of the Professional Numismatists Guild, and suggest that you consider doing business with PNG members rather than strangers. I am also proud to have worked for Harlan Berk since 1989, and expect to do so for many more years. My retail prices may be slightly more than the stranger you've never met, but I do know what the heck I am doing, and if I ever do make a mistake I stand behind my work.

    Thomas K. DeLorey
    Professional Numismatist
    ... --- .-.. --- -. --. --..-- .- -. -.. - .... .- -. -.- ... ..-. --- .-. .- .-.. .-.. - .... . ..-. .. ... .... ..__.
  • CaptHenway, I agree with you totally and respect your knowlege.. However, we collectors have to sell
    at some point as well and do not have the reputation of you or a Harlan Berk
    image
    ----------------------------------------
    jr
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 27,028 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thank you.
    We do buy also, as well as most other PNG dealers and the hundreds of other reputable dealers who buy coins.
    TD
    ... --- .-.. --- -. --. --..-- .- -. -.. - .... .- -. -.- ... ..-. --- .-. .- .-.. .-.. - .... . ..-. .. ... .... ..__.
  • JZraritiesJZrarities Posts: 2,606 ✭✭✭
    Thanks for the info Wes.

    -Jeff
  • UtahCoinUtahCoin Posts: 5,274 ✭✭✭✭
    NGC has confirmed that both the coin and slab shown here are counterfeit. Told you so, told you so.....
    I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector.
    Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5 for $260. And again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902 for $27!


  • << <i>NGC has confirmed that both the coin and slab shown here are counterfeit. Told you so, told you so..... >>



    Are they gonna do anything???? Notify ebay??? Buy those coins (NGC) and see how they're made, so they can get a jump on what they need to change???
    my EBAY items
    Successful forum transactions: jessewvu, nankraut, tootawl, levinll, mistercoinman, metalsman, adamlaneus, chuckc, fivecents, kingplatinum, jdimmick, waterzooey, moderncoinmart, bige, steelielee,
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