HOF Mistakes
markj111
Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭
in Sports Talk
I do not know anything about the author, but I enjoyed reading it. Neyer was in general agreement, but took issue with a couple of names-Rizzuto and Lyons.
33 Men (and one Woman) Out: The All-Time Worst Hall of Famers Posted by Nick Kapur on Wednesday January 02nd 2008, 2:48 pm, filed in Featury
A few weeks back, I made the bold claim that I could easily think of at least 20 Hall of Famers who should not be in the Hall, upon which Coley promptly challenged me to write a post naming names. At first I was a bit worried as to whether I would be able to deliver the goods, but as I went down the list I was amazed at how many unworthy players had somehow snuck their way into the Hall over the years. I tried to give the benefit of the doubt as often as possible, and with many players there was at least an argument that could be made, but in the end, I was still left with 34 people who simply have no place in the Baseball Hall of Fame. It’s not that some of these guys weren’t good players, or nice people, but awarding them baseball’s highest honor and putting their names and plaques along side the true immortals of the game makes a mockery of everything that the Hall stands for. If I were commissioner of baseball, I would immediately call a one-time election to de-elect unworthy Hall of Famers, and these 34 names would top the ballot…
1. Dave Bancroft, SS - Nobody can think of a good reason why the Veteran’s Committee elected Bancroft to the Hall in 1971, other than the fact that Bancroft had been a good friend and teammate of then-presiding Committee poobah Frankie Frisch. Although it is important to recognize that Bancroft was a shortstop, his numbers compare very poorly to almost all other middle-infielders in the Hall, with the exceptions of Phil Rizzuto, an equally questionable selection who also appears on this list, and Bill Mazeroski, who was perhaps the greatest fielding second baseman of all time, and thus gets more of a pass on his offense.
2. Jake Beckley, 1B - Anyone ever heard of Jake Beckley? Anyone at all? There is a reason why you haven’t, which is that he really wasn’t all that great, especially for a first baseman. But he was elected by the Veterans Committee nearly a century after he played because the Veterans like people who hit over .300, and Beckley sometimes hit over .300.
3. Jim Bunning, P - His big accomplishment was that he won 100 games and had 1000 strikeouts in each of the two leagues. But overall he was just 224-184. He was, however, a powerful and influential US Congressman when the Veterans Committee elected him in 1996.
4. Morgan Bulkeley, Executive - Served as president of the National League for one (1) year. Yep, that is what he did.
5. Orlando Cepeda, OF - Nobody would deny that Cepeda was a pretty good hitter, but for an first baseman his numbers are poor compared with the rest of the guys in the Hall. His career stats have become a popular low-end benchmark for people to compare with when trying to make the case for putting other marginal outfielders in to the Hall.
6. Red Faber, P - Had a few decent seasons along with numerous mediocre to terrible seasons. He did win over 20 games four different times, but that was only because he was pitching 40-50 games those years. In his four 20-win seasons he also lost 14, 13, 15, and 17 games. That is not quality, just quantity. And it is certainly not Hall of Fame level dominance.
7. Rick Farrell, C - A very popular pick for the worst Hall of Famer of them all, Farrell’s top comps according to Baseball Reference are some dudes named Deacon McGuire, Jim Gantner, Claude Ritchey, Tony Cuccinello, and Billy Jurges. Um. Yeah. Top catcher comp is Tony Pena. Anyone for putting Tony Pena in the Hall?
8. Chick Hafey, OF - A kind of okay player when he was actually on the field, Hafey only played one or two complete seasons, and only had three seasons of hitting even 20 home runs. But damn! This man has a career batting average of .317!! Clearly, that means he must have been awesome!!!
9. Jesse Haines, P - Unbelievably mediocre pitcher who is one of the most baffling Hall selections of all time
10. Harry Hooper - I defy you to give me any justification at all for why Harry Hooper is in the Hall of Fame. Playing in the Dead Ball Era, he posted a career batting average of only .281 as an outfielder. He doesn’t seem to have been particularly good at anything.
11. Waite Hoyt, P - 237-182, 3.59 ERA, only won 20 games twice. Only in the Hall of Fame because he was a New York Yankee.
12. Travis Jackson, SS - With a career OPS+ of 102, I guess he must be in for his defense or something, but then again, we are talking about the same Travis Jackson who once made 58 errors in a season. A most befuddling selection.
13. George Kell, 3B - Kell’s Hall of Fame plaque calls him “solid” hitter and a “sure-handed” fielder. Huh. Well, that sounds good and all, but it doesn’t exactly bespeak Hall of Fame awesomeness. He did lead the AL in batting average one season. I guess that’s kind of cool.
14. George Kelly, 1B - A 109 career OPS+ is simply terrible for a first baseman. Terrible!
15. Bowie Kuhn, Commissioner - Fought the advent of free agency tooth and nail, but failed anyway. Proposed putting black players in a separate and unequal wing of the Hall of Fame. Tried to ban Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle from baseball forever in 1983. Only known achievement in 15 years as commish: introducing nighttime World Series games, which everyone hates now anyway. Perhaps worst of all, his induction makes Bud Selig a lock for the Hall by comparison.
16. Tony Lazzeri, 2B - Elected in 1991 at a time when the Veterans Committee was going through a phase where it thought it had better elect any player who was ever associated with the 1927 Yankees.
17. Ted Lyons, P - Had a few good seasons, and many, many mediocre ones. His ERA was as often above 4.00 as not. Compiled a very uninspiring record of 260-230, despite pitching for 21 seasons.
18. Freddie Lindstrom, 3B/OF - Only played until age 30. Only collected 1747 hits. Seems to have been elected by the Veterans Committee solely because he once hit .379 in a season, in 1930.
19. Effa Manley, Executive - Apparently picked entirely for PC reasons, she was the wife of the owner of a Negro League team, and is currently the only woman in the Hall of Fame. She was a civil rights activist, which is honorable, but her primary baseball-related activity was her well-documented hobby of sleeping with many of the players on the team.
20. Tommy McCarthy, OF - His statistics were pretty poor by the standards of his day. He really only had three good seasons, and nobody with a 102 OPS+ should be allowed anywhere near the Hall of Fame, at least not without paying admission like everyone else.
21. Rube Marquard, P - Had three great seasons in a row from ages 24-26. Problem was, he kept pitching until he was 38, while struggling to be even league average, compiling a career ERA+ of only 103.
22. Hal Newhouser, P - Newhouser was a mediocre pitcher who suddenly had three seasons for the ages from 1944-1946, while all the good hitters were away fighting in World War II. Once they they returned, and Newhouser was no longer pitching against minor leaguers, he went back to being mediocre. A classic example of the Veteran’s committee paying no attention whatsoever to context.
23. Tony Perez, 1B - First basemen are vastly over-represented in the Hall of Fame, and Tony Perez is arguably the worst first baseman in the Hall. But Joe Morgan will not rest until the entire Big Red Machine is in the Hall, and Joe Morgan has a lot of friends.
24. Herb Pennock, P - 240 wins, 3.60 ERA, 106 career ERA+
25. Eppa Rixey, P - Career record of 266-251. Ouch.
26. Phil Rizzuto, SS - His top comp is Jose Offerman. The only other Hall of Famer in his top ten comps is the even more undeserving Johnny Evers. Even Phil Rizzuto didn’t think he should have been in the Hall of Fame. But he had the unbeatable combo of being a Yankee and also being a lovable Yankee. Eventually, the Veteran’s Committee just couldn’t resist.
27. Red Ruffing, P - His 3.80 career ERA is one of the worst in the Hall. Only in because he was a New York Yankee.
28. Red Schoendienst, 2B - It’s really, really hard to think of any career accomplishments for Red Schoendienst. Um, I guess he once had a season of 200 hits. Oh, and he led the national league twice in at-bats. And he does hold the record for most doubles in a three-game span! But he also had a career OBP of .337 and a terrible career OPS+ of only 93. His selection is another oozing black sore on the sorry history of the Veteran’s Committee.
29-31. Joe Tinker, Johnny Evers, Frank Chance, SS-2B-1B - These guys are ONLY in the Hall because somebody happened to write a catchy poem about them. Tinker’s top 20th century comp is Ozzie Guillen; Evers has Mark McLemore on his list; and Chance (a first baseman) has Darryl Hamilton among his top comps. And statistically, they weren’t even good at turning double plays!
32. Lloyd Waner, OF - Let’s face it: Lloyd Waner is only in the Hall of Fame because he played alongside his much more talented brother, and once they put Paul in the Hall, it seemed only fair to put Lloyd in too. Lloyd did manage to finish with a career average over .300, but he only played 5 full seasons without significant injury or benching, and had a career OPS+ of 99, meaning he was actually a below average hitter for his era!
33. Vic Willis, P - Sure he won over 20 games 8 different times. But this was from 1898 to 1910, and he was routinely starting 40 games and tossing over 350 innings a season. Compared to his peers of the day, he was thoroughly mediocre. This was long understood, and he was not tapped for the Hall until 1995, when a cook-eyed Veterans Committee looked back and saw only those 20-win seasons without any consideration of context or era.
34. Tom Yawkey, Owner - Last owner to sign a black player. Passed on chances to sign Jackie Robinson and Willie Mays. His team never won a World Series. Seriously, it’s time to rename that street already.
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Comments
For example...Who's the worst player on this list:
Michael Jordan
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Oscar Robertson
Magic Johnson
I say that whoever's the worst player on that list doesn't belong!
Steve
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
<< <i>The problem with this obsession with "who's the worst hall of famer", is that in any list, someone is going to be the worst!
For example...Who's the worst player on this list:
Michael Jordan
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Oscar Robertson
Magic Johnson
I say that whoever's the worst player on that list doesn't belong!
Steve >>
Huh? Come back when you sober up.
<< <i>
<< <i>The problem with this obsession with "who's the worst hall of famer", is that in any list, someone is going to be the worst!
For example...Who's the worst player on this list:
Michael Jordan
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Oscar Robertson
Magic Johnson
I say that whoever's the worst player on that list doesn't belong!
Steve >>
Huh? Come back when you sober up. >>
I happen to be completely sober.
The original post is a list of baseball's supposed "All-Time Worst Hall of Famers". All I meant by my post is that if the Basketball Hall of Fame were limited to only those six players, inevitably some one would come along and say that one of them is the worst, and doesn't belong. That is exactly what is wrong with this obsession with identifying "the worst" of anything, in my opinion.
Steve
While that may be true with your hypothetical six player NBA HOF, the difference is that the guys listed as the worst baseball HOFers have many average players in history that are just as comparable...and many BETTER players who are not in the HOF.
Mark Mclemore is comparable to one of the baseball HOFers. That is like saying Dave Corzine would be comparable to one of the NBA greats on your list.
<< <i>Because when it comes to the Hall of Fame, it's not always what you did, it's who you know. >>
As it is with everything in life.
Steve
http://sportsfansnews.com/author/andy-fischer/
thats the truth, i can think of several that arent even on that list,just depends on if the sports writers like you, kinda like bonds getting in, maybe when this entire generation dies off, he might get in on a senior ballot-hes not a real big fave or was ever very nice to sportwriters and press, and kharma's got him now,they are calling the shots, barring hes not in court still around 2012-13
< Jim Bunning> he prob made a big donation to the hall,tax deductable
Bill Russell sucked as an announcer---does that count???
haaaaaaaaaaa - yeah thats a +1
Goose Gossage
Lee Smith
Ron Santo
Jim Rice
Buck O'Neill
Jim Kaat
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Dale Murphy
Charlie Finley
Steve Garvey
A lot of the players on the list played a very long time ago, so unless I know the context, I won't know if 20 homers a season was poor or if 20 win seasons were no big deal.
At first glance, George Chance does not look like a HOF, but he played in an era I know nothing about, so my question would be how he distinguished himself from the crowd of his playing days. On cannot compare Chance with today's standards.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
I think the personal attack on Effa Manley was pretty tasteless in this type of debate.
See how it works? I understand my own behavior about Ashburn not deserving to be there, but I was still glad to see Ashburn in there.
Inducting as many players, etc. as possible which in my view is wrong and for sure dilutes the original intention of the Hall, however doing that generates interest and MONEY.
Professional sports is all about the money and the Hall of Fame, I don't care if it's considered non-profit or not (I'm not sure), is still about the money and generating as much money as possible.
-
Next week I'm going to present for your consideration a list of 10 deserving Hall of Famers, including a few ex-players, but mostly non-players (because that's where the process has truly failed for the last decade or two).
In the meantime, Nick Kapur presents a list of 33 men (and one woman) who are in the Hall of Fame … but shouldn't be. I can't run through the entire list in this space, but Kapur's right: Every name on the list is questionable, and most of them clearly were mistakes.
A few quibbles, though.
1. Here's the note about Phil Rizzuto:
26. Phil Rizzuto, SS - His top comp is Jose Offerman. The only other Hall of Famer in his top ten comps is the even more undeserving Johnny Evers. Even Phil Rizzuto didn't think he should have been in the Hall of Fame. But he had the unbeatable combo of being a Yankee and also being a lovable Yankee. Eventually, the Veteran's Committee just couldn't resist.
That's fair, mostly. I think it's true that if Rizzuto hadn't been a Yankee, and more to the point a longtime Yankee broadcaster, he wouldn't have finally been elected. That said, I think it's irresponsible to discuss Rizzuto's Hall of Fame credentials without mentioning World War II. Without checking, I'm pretty sure Jose Offerman didn't lose three full seasons of his career to a global conflict.
Absent the war, Rizzuto would have finished his career with roughly 2,000 hits (and probably a few more). Defensively, he was truly outstanding and would have won a bunch of Gold Gloves if they'd existed when he played. He did win the MVP Award in 1950 and might well have deserved it. I'm not saying Rizzuto's an obvious Hall of Famer even with the 2,000 hits. What I'm saying is that if not for the war, Rizzuto's right up there in career value with Hall of Famers Lou Boudreau and Luis Aparicio. And nobody's complaining about them.
2. Kapur lists Orlando Cepeda as an outfielder and writes, "His career stats have become a popular low-end benchmark for people to compare with when trying to make the case for putting other marginal outfielders in to the Hall." Cepeda spent the vast majority of his career as a first baseman. I agree with the general sentiment, though. Cepeda was a fantastic player, but no more fantastic than Keith Hernandez or Norm Cash.
3. Kapur lists 11 pitchers, and he's right: Most of them were poor choices. Ted Lyons, though? Lyons finished with 260 wins over 21 seasons with the White Sox. How many pennants did the White Sox win in those 21 seasons? Zero. How many winning seasons among those 21 seasons? Seven. How many second-place finishes? Zero. How many third-place finishes? Two.
If Lyons had pitched for a decent team instead of the White Sox he'd have won around 300 games. Oh, and then there was the war. When the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor in 1941, Lyons was three weeks shy of his 41st birthday. But he came back and pitched in '42, and -- this is one of my all-time favorite stats -- he started 20 games, completed 20 games, and went 14-6 with a 2.10 ERA that was No. 1 in the American League. By then Lyons was throwing mostly knuckleballs, and he looked like he might pitch forever.
Except he enlisted, and spent the next three seasons a United States Marine. He came back in the spring of '46 and started five games, posting a fine 2.32 ERA, but quit in late May when ownership asked him to take over as manager
You're going to kick that guy out of Cooperstown?
<< <i>Interesting topic. How about a list of 34 players who deserve to be in the hall, but have been denied? I'll throw out a few of my picks to get the ball rolling.
Goose Gossage
Lee Smith
Ron Santo
Jim Rice
Buck O'Neill
Jim Kaat
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Dale Murphy
Charlie Finley
Steve Garvey >>
I think you could add Tommy John to that list also. I think he has only two more cracks at it.
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
the team. As he said, when he left, that was basically the end.
Tony
All the players listed either in the hall that 'don't deserve it' or that should be in the hall are better baseball players than all of us writing about them!
In 1975 they ranked 1st in ERA and won 108 games. In 1976 they ranked 5th and won 102 games. Perez was then replaced basically by Driessen, and his offense picked up where Perez left off, and the Reds finished second in the league in runs scored.
But, they dropped to 10th in the league in ERA and won 88 games. The following year in 1979 was much the same, great offense, but they were 9th in ERA and finsihed with 92 wins.
There was the old poem back then...Roses are red violets are blue, If the Reds get some pitching, the Dodgers are through!
Steve
<< <i>This debate could be endless, but one thing I am pretty sure of.....
All the players listed either in the hall that 'don't deserve it' or that should be in the hall are better baseball players than all of us writing about them! >>
<< <i>This debate could be endless, but one thing I am pretty sure of.....
All the players listed either in the hall that 'don't deserve it' or that should be in the hall are better baseball players than all of us writing about them! >>
If this is the merit for HoF induction, then everyone who's ever played MLB should be in the hall? There's nothing wrong with pointing out obvious missteps when it comes to something as important as the Hall of Fame, if for nothing else to prevent additional errors in future selections. I think anyone would be able to easily point out at least one (if not more) HoFers who shouldn't be in the hall.
1. Frank White (914)
2. Bob Boone (910)
3. Leo Cardenas (904)
4. Royce Clayton (903)
5. Chris Speier (897)
6. Tony Pena (897)
7. Bill Russell (887)
8. Garry Templeton (884)
9. Tony Taylor (878)
10. Jim Fregosi (876)
The above are the players that Maz compares too. He epitomizes the weakness that became of the VC selection. The early selections were strong.
OH, by the way i am not a Yankee fan
And we have this:
Black Ink: Batting - 2 (582) (Average HOFer ≈ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting - 12 (1247) (Average HOFer ≈ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 14.9 (1019) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 71.0 (249) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Overall Rank in parentheses.
Steve
But I take extreme exception to the idea that Phil Niekro doesn't belong. I do not disagree that he was not generally considered a "top" pitcher in his day, but he was a top pitcher which should count for more than misinformed considerations. Consider the years 1967, 1974, 1976, 1978 and 1979; a strong case can be made that Phil Niekro should have won the Cy Young Award in each and every one of those years; it is almost impossible to construct a case that he shouldn't have won it in a few of those years. His W/L in those five seasons was "only" 88-71, on teams where all of the other pitchers were 282-367; Niekro was 120 points better than his awful teams. If Niekro had had the good fortune to play his best seasons on an average team, he would have won 350 games; if he had the great fortune to play on a really good team he might very well be the all-time NL wins leader (and he'd have 3 or 4 Cy Young Awards as a bonus).
As most of you already know, I think it belittles the HOF that Bert Blyleven has not been inducted. I think he is clearly the best pitcher to be excluded and clearly better than most of the pitchers that have been voted in. But as huge a supporter as I am of Blyleven, I think it is even more clear that Phil Niekro was better. Niekro's name doesn't belong anywhere near a discussion of undeserving HOFers.
Regarding Newhouser, I understand the complaints about the level of competition he faced in his prime, but I'm not convinced that he doesn't belong in the HOF. MLB could have shut down for the war, but they didn't; every game that was played in those years "counts" just as much as any other game. Leaving Newhouser out of the HOF is essentially the same thing as retroactively declaring that those seasons were just exhibitions and that the awards Newhouser won don't count. They DO count, Newhouser WAS the best pitcher in baseball for a long time, and I think that deservedly gets him in the HOF.
Maz is in the HOF (I feel that he is one of many that do not belong) you have your opinion, which is fine. Please never compare any Maz card to a Mar's attacks card though as they blow every Maz card away in Value.
Steve
<< <i>Interesting topic. How about a list of 34 players who deserve to be in the hall, but have been denied? I'll throw out a few of my picks to get the ball rolling. >>
If there are 10, 20, or 33 better players not in the Hall-of-Fame that are better, they do not deserve to be in at all. By design, there should be no more than four or five eligible players maximum who are not in who should be
The idea of playing favorites, making up new standards, and ignoring history and already set standards is what created the mess in the first place. It cannot be undone, but it can be avoided in the future. . .
<< <i>Mazeroski doesn't hit that HR and he's not in the Hall of Fame - Period. Being a great fielding 2nd baseman is like being the tallest midget in the circus. >>
On your first point, I agree; without that HR he probably doesn't get in. But I still believe he belongs there. I know many people want the HOF to be for "the best of the best"; that's a valid thing to want, but that's not what the HOF is, and it's not what it ever was. Calling Mazeroski the best fielding 2nd baseman is about the same as calling whales the biggest mammals; it's true, but it hardly captures the scale. Mazeroski was, by several methods, the greatest fielder ever - better than Ozzie, better than Brooks, better than anybody who ever played the game. I don't know if the people who voted him in even appreciated that, nor do I care; I'm just glad the HOF has a place for him. He deserves it.
The tallest midget standard, on the other hand, I think works exceptionally well for evaluating relief pitchers, pinch runners, or anyone else who appears in less than 5% of the season. Hoyt Wilhelm being in the HOF is borderline, Rivera making it in will be fine; no other relief pitcher is even remotely close by any measurable standard. And if you think about it, you just have to laugh when Mattingly or Puckett or whoever is deemed unworthy for the HOF because their career was too short, and then the same person will argue that some relief pitcher who played in less than 1/10th as many innings should be in.
I was and am.
I think you are needed over in the other forum, many are comparing MAZ with guys like Frank White.
AS for your earlier comment about how he is a true HOF'r, yes I always confuse him with the likes of Babe Ruth and Willie Mays and even Roberto Clemente.
Stop looking at this through the eyes of a FAN that collects his cards. The guy at best is marginal and should have been on that list.
Steve
Cobb, Ruth, Wagner, Mathewson, and Walter Johnson
It has added unquestionable stars like Ted Williams, Lou Gehrig, Willie Mays, Lefty Grove, and many more......
However it has also added some marginal ones, this unfortunate situation can not be made any better, or corrected, by adding more marginal or debateable ones.
A possible defense of some, not all, "marginal" inductees, might be the different time era and style of play they performed in. If one was, for example, one of the very best thirdbaseman of the first 70-75 years of baseball, that should be consideredin and of itself, therefore if in the next 40-50 years a few other 3Bmen may somewhat equal his stats, that should merely solidify the old "so and so is in, therefore such and such belongs", however a more total look at the circumstanses would help to see if induction is proper.
With the above long-winded blab about the dilution of the Hall aside, I must defend two pitchers who were mentioned as possibly not worthy.
Ted Lyons, had a career ERA + of 118, led in fewest walks per game four times, led in shutouts in 1925 AND in 1940, some 16 years apart, he won 260 games while pitching his entire career for a less than spectacular team. He was a major league hurler for 21 seasons. Longevity and skill surely qualify Lyons.
Vic Willis, also had a very impressive career ERA + of 118, twice the league leader in shutouts and complete games, in a time era when those were plentyfull. A tremendous 410 innings pitched in 1902. He also managed to win 20 games a truly still outstanding 8 different seasons.
This is an interesting philosophy that I hear often. A lot of fans believe that being a second baseman is not that hard, nor is anything special. While at the same time the Sabermatricians view their contribution as God-like.
Reality, as typical, it is probably somewhere in between.
I think most people view second base as an easy position because during little league days, it is a position where a weaker fielder is put(once the outfield is filled with the weakest ones). Why? Because in little league, a kid with a weak arm could actually man that position.
The job requirements of a MLB second baseman are quite different, and wheras a cannon for an arm is not needed, one still must posses a good enough arm to turn a double play, and be good enough to get to ground balls.
BUT, I believe Sabermatricians overrate the defensive value of a second baseman. The throw is still very easy to make on the majority of ground balls. It is still very easy to make on the beginning end of a double play. It is tough on the receving end from the SS on a double play.
In contrast, they totally degrade the defensive value of a first basseman. Their notion is that switch the two, and see how hard it would be for the first baseman to play second. Well, it may be hard for many...but not for all. But it may be just as hard for Joe Morgan to man first base!
How useful would Morgan be at five foot nothing, trying to reach all the wide or semi wide throws that make a difference in all those plays where a guy is beat by a step? I would imagine that many more throws would also simply get past him from his short reach. This would include the ability to stretch and dig balls out before they 'inbetween hop ya'! So there is a two way street that is COMPLETELY neglected in the Sabermatrician world.
If the HOF was, as some seem to believe, a place where only the very best get to go then Catfish Hunter would have trouble buying a ticket, Nolan Ryan would have gotten in, but he wouldn't have had close to the highest first-year ballot % ever for a pitcher, Tinker/Evers/Chance would just be a poem, and Dick Allen would have been in more than 25 years ago. The HOF is intended to be an honor for players who have had careers worth honoring; Mazeroski deserves to be remembered and honored for doing something better than enyone else. If the "tallest midget" analogy held up in this case as well as it does for relief pitching, then he wouldn't; but the analogy doesn't hold up, and Mazeroski does belong.
goose is gonna get in this year i think ,maybe dawson?
last year with cal & gwynn he has 71. something, cal and gwynn just blew everybody out,there is nobody really of their caliber on this years, i had to look a few of em up to see who they even were,only one new name i think they said on site-baines
two more seasons than the great HOF pitcher, Addie Joss,
also a better W-L %, a better ERA +, a higher pct. of complete games, and more K's per game, than Joss.
A remarkable 34-5 year back in 1912 !
A lifetime ERA of 2.03, fourth best in history.
A career ERA + of 146, below only Walter Johnson and Ed Walsh among HOF starters.
A lifetime win pct. ranking him 11th best of all time.
A career adjusted ERA +, below only Johnson, Walsh, and Lefty Grove among HOF starters.
Plenty of clamor for Goose Gossage, Jack Morris , Lee Smith, Tommy John, and perhaps the lone, though questionable, deserving hurler, Bert Blyleven to enter the Hall.
What about Smokey Joe Wood ?
His time spent during such a brief career was good with ERA+ finishes(in his OWN league) of 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, and 7th. His IP finishes were 3d and 5th. No other top ten finishes in either category.
Addie Joss had ERA+ finishes (In his own league) of 1,2,3,3,3,6,7,and 7. IP of 2, and 5. This clearly shows the better pitcher....though doesn't necessarily show that Joss belongs in the Hall of Fame.
Were Wood's circumstances for an early exit reason enough to get in? Did he shine bright enough in that short time? I would like to see some more top three finishes in ALL of MLB(not just his own league) before I would agree that he shined as bright as others.
<< <i>Smokey Joe Wood,
two more seasons than the great HOF pitcher, Addie Joss >>
C'mon Jack, 4 of those "seasons" he was off the roster except for a week here and there. When he did pitch, he was hurt more than he was healthy. Joss, who didn't actually pitch long enough to qualify for the HOF by current standards, still pitched 50% more innings than Wood. Given that Wood's major league career was effectively over at 25, comparing his "career" averages to other HOFers is apples/oranges.
I'll give you that I would rather see Wood in than Gossage, Smith or (gag!) Jack Morris, but - like these other guys - he's not even close to qualified.
Still,... 3rd best ERA + of all, 4th best lifetime ERA, 11th best Win pct. ?
I would certainly think him more qualified than many already in.
Blyleven suffers from a reverse type of predjudice, he had a fine, quite long career, but never was shining bright enough for even one season ( like the 34-5 of Wood's which might be the best single season ever ) to get a Cy Young award and/or be recognized as THE best pitcher any single year.
Steve, Joss pitched in only 27% more games than Wood, and did I mention Wood was a very much better hitter than Joss ?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
He was not a true single season awesome star however, and he did play on three different playoff teams, so though he was not on many juggernaughts, he didnt play on all horrible teams, I think the 79 Pirates were the best in all baseball that year.
Bert never led in wins, he never led in ERA, he did lead once in K's, also once in losses, not too much in the pitching triple crown stats. Things like ERA are, in reality, very much in the pitchers' control.
Over a long 22 year career he was selected to only two all star teams. If chosen by fans, peers, sportswriters or managers, that does not say much for his contemporaries' regard for his hurling prowess.
He did garner 287 wins, also led in innings and shutouts two separate seasons. Led in complete games and WHIP one time. He was a workhorse and had a long fine, though not brilliant, career.
I would vote for Joe Wood before Bly, though both, from my perspective, are HOF material.
Blyleven had the following league finishes in ERA+ for his career....
1,2,2,2,4,5,5,6,8,9,10,10.
He had the following IP finishes for his career....
1,1,4,4,4,5,7,7,9,10,10
Knowing the lofty rankings in ERA+, and IP, it was the poor teammates that resulted in lower wins totals...not his. I could see if he was only pitching 170 innings a year with the good ERA...resulting in lower wins. But that isn't the case.
In 1973 Blyleven edged out Palmer in ERA+, 158 to 156, and he threw 325 innings compard to Palmer's 296. He was the best pitcher in the league that season. He finished SEVENTH in the Cy Young voting because of low run support leading to a 20-17 record.
Jaxxr, how many pitchers would have a beter ERA plus than Wood if you only looked at the primes of THEIR CAREERS? There are plenty of pitchers who have better primes, so that 3rd place all time finsih is VERY misleading, and isn't representative of his dominance. Plus those pitchers went on to have many other productive seasons.
In a time where Starting pitchers routinely threw 300+ innings, he topped 200 innings only twice in his career.
Blyleven has an adjusted ERA + of 118 for his career. A poorer one than guys like Jimmy Key, Hippo Vaughn, Billy Pierce, David Cone, Dave Stieb, Bobby Shantz, Ron Guidry, Bret Saberhagen, Sal Maglie, and the aforementioned Jim Palmer, had for their respective careers, among others.