If genuine, the sale for under $20K was a bargain. Perhaps the buyer was the owner of the coin. I believe you can bid on your own coin if you made the mistake of failing to set a reserve when you listed it or just want to go that route as an alternative to setting a reserve. Of course we don't know what the full reserve was in the TT auction, but if it was only $30 k (and IF the coin is genuine) that would still be a bargain. I guess it all comes down to how much faith one has in the PCGS "Genuine" designation. Is there any other half disme that is in a PCGS holder that has sold in the last few years, regardless of grade, for less than $25,000.00?
<< <i>One last crazy thought for the night. What if the coin was not flattened and is in fact a counterfeit? Specifically, I'm wondering what might happen if two very soft false dies were used to strike false 1792 half dismes. Could the dies actually spread this dramatically through use? And if so, could the product look like this coin? >>
I would never say never, but I strongly suspect that if a very soft pair of false dies were used to make this piece, then there would be noticable distortion. I still think it is an expanded genuine coin, made using the leather technique. Just a hunch. TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I would never say never, but I strongly suspect that if a very soft pair of false dies were used to make this piece, then there would be noticable distortion. I still think it is an expanded genuine coin, made using the leather technique. Just a hunch.
You're probably right, but I'd still sure like to know the weight of the damned thing! (If it's way overweight, it really may have been struck from large or enlarged dies.)
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I would feel that the XF Disme is definitely larger as the air gap around the outer edge of the coin and the holder, while prevalent in the other three is nonexistent in this coin which might be due to the larger size of the plancet/stamped coin or whatever caused the difference in size. I think Heritage would be wise to remove this coin from its auction until more is learned about this coin, such as; 1) Is this an undiscovered die pair 2) Is the coin actually larger inhand 3) Is it a fake/counterfeit 4) Are their others like it It would be in Heritage's best interest regardless of how it came about. Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
<< <i>One last crazy thought for the night. What if the coin was not flattened and is in fact a counterfeit? Specifically, I'm wondering what might happen if two very soft false dies were used to strike false 1792 half dismes. Could the dies actually spread this dramatically through use? And if so, could the product look like this coin? >>
I would never say never, but I strongly suspect that if a very soft pair of false dies were used to make this piece, then there would be noticable distortion. I still think it is an expanded genuine coin, made using the leather technique. Just a hunch. TD >>
Makes sense. Expand the diameter and try to pass it as a disme.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
According to the scuttlebutt I heard on the FUN bourse floor from an expert dealer, the “large” half disme turned out to be a counterfeit and PCGS made good on it and bought it back.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
<< <i>According to the scuttlebutt I heard on the FUN bourse floor from an expert dealer, the “large” half disme turned out to be a counterfeit and PCGS made good on it and bought it back. >>
Not true. The coin was deemed "Genuine", but flattened, and it was reholdered in a PCGS Genuine holder.
<< <i>I think Heritage would be wise to remove this coin from its auction >>
I agree.
Russ, NCNE >>
AS to the current stautus I am confused. I thought after it got reholdered by PCGS into a "Genuine" (but no grade) holder, that it first was put up for sale at FUN where it either sold for $20,000 (or didn't sell) and then was put up for sale on Teletrade where a $30,000 or more reserve was not met. Has it now been listed for a pending Heritage sale? In any event, as to the weight of the coin, when PCGS reholdered it into a "Genuine" holder wouldn't they have taken the precaution of at least weighing it? Perhaps (assuming the coin is now in an auction) it would be prudent to either confirm that it was weighed and the weight matches an original OR if that information was not recorded by PCGS to just have PCGS crack it open and weigh it now. If that is not practical then the new buyer should be given the opportunity to have it weighed and if it is found wanting then the buyer should be allowed to return the coin and that should be part of the auction description given all the controversy.
Comments
Another thought/question
this item sold at Heritage for under $20K
and the reserve was over $30K in this TT auction
do items occasionally sell like that?
<< <i>
Another thought/question
this item sold at Heritage for under $20K
and the reserve was over $30K in this TT auction
do items occasionally sell like that? >>
If genuine, the sale for under $20K was a bargain. Perhaps the buyer was the owner of the coin. I believe you can bid on your own coin if you made the mistake of failing to set a reserve when you listed it or just want to go that route as an alternative to setting a reserve. Of course we don't know what the full reserve was in the TT auction, but if it was only $30 k (and IF the coin is genuine) that would still be a bargain. I guess it all comes down to how much faith one has in the PCGS "Genuine" designation. Is there any other half disme that is in a PCGS holder that has sold in the last few years, regardless of grade, for less than $25,000.00?
<< <i>One last crazy thought for the night. What if the coin was not flattened and is in fact a counterfeit? Specifically, I'm wondering what might happen if two very soft false dies were used to strike false 1792 half dismes. Could the dies actually spread this dramatically through use? And if so, could the product look like this coin? >>
I would never say never, but I strongly suspect that if a very soft pair of false dies were used to make this piece, then there would be noticable distortion. I still think it is an expanded genuine coin, made using the leather technique.
Just a hunch.
TD
You're probably right, but I'd still sure like to know the weight of the damned thing! (If it's way overweight, it really may have been struck from large or enlarged dies.)
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I think Heritage would be wise to remove this coin from its auction until more is learned about this coin, such as;
1) Is this an undiscovered die pair
2) Is the coin actually larger inhand
3) Is it a fake/counterfeit
4) Are their others like it
It would be in Heritage's best interest regardless of how it came about.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
<< <i>
<< <i>One last crazy thought for the night. What if the coin was not flattened and is in fact a counterfeit? Specifically, I'm wondering what might happen if two very soft false dies were used to strike false 1792 half dismes. Could the dies actually spread this dramatically through use? And if so, could the product look like this coin? >>
I would never say never, but I strongly suspect that if a very soft pair of false dies were used to make this piece, then there would be noticable distortion. I still think it is an expanded genuine coin, made using the leather technique.
Just a hunch.
TD >>
Makes sense. Expand the diameter and try to pass it as a disme.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>According to the scuttlebutt I heard on the FUN bourse floor from an expert dealer, the “large” half disme turned out to be a counterfeit and PCGS made good on it and bought it back. >>
Not true. The coin was deemed "Genuine", but flattened, and it was reholdered in a PCGS Genuine holder.
<< <i>I think Heritage would be wise to remove this coin from its auction >>
I agree.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I calculated the diameter of the coin in the XF45 holder to be 19.4 mm >>
IGWT was pretty damned close considering he was making the determination based on images.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>I think Heritage would be wise to remove this coin from its auction >>
I agree.
Russ, NCNE >>
AS to the current stautus I am confused. I thought after it got reholdered by PCGS into a "Genuine" (but no grade) holder, that it first was put up for sale at FUN where it either sold for $20,000 (or didn't sell) and then was put up for sale on Teletrade where a $30,000 or more reserve was not met. Has it now been listed for a pending Heritage sale? In any event, as to the weight of the coin, when PCGS reholdered it into a "Genuine" holder wouldn't they have taken the precaution of at least weighing it? Perhaps (assuming the coin is now in an auction) it would be prudent to either confirm that it was weighed and the weight matches an original OR if that information was not recorded by PCGS to just have PCGS crack it open and weigh it now. If that is not practical then the new buyer should be given the opportunity to have it weighed and if it is found wanting then the buyer should be allowed to return the coin and that should be part of the auction description given all the controversy.
<< <i>Has it now been listed for a pending Heritage sale? >>
No. The poster I was responding to didn't bother to read the date this thread was started.
Russ, NCNE