The King of Siam set looks like a mere souvenir ?
firstmint
Posts: 1,171 ✭
...when compared to a set of silver Comitia Americana medals.
This is what is printed in an article by a respected forum member in "the Numismatist" for January 2008, p. 72.
Souvenir: "Something serving as a token of rememberance, as of a place, occasion, or experience; a momento".
As a numismatist, I take exception to the classification of this important diplomatic gift set, which brought about significant trade agreements, being equated to a token or momento.
The King of Siam presentation set is currently insured for $10 million dollars, and holds the record for any American numismatic item, last selling for over $8 Mil.
Do you agree with the souvenir comparison?
This is what is printed in an article by a respected forum member in "the Numismatist" for January 2008, p. 72.
Souvenir: "Something serving as a token of rememberance, as of a place, occasion, or experience; a momento".
As a numismatist, I take exception to the classification of this important diplomatic gift set, which brought about significant trade agreements, being equated to a token or momento.
The King of Siam presentation set is currently insured for $10 million dollars, and holds the record for any American numismatic item, last selling for over $8 Mil.
Do you agree with the souvenir comparison?
PM me if you are looking for U.S. auction catalogs
0
Comments
Russ, NCNE
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
you can keep the rest
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
But then I don't consider a 1999 proof Kennedy half dollar a souvenir either.
The King of Siam proof set is what it is and so long as people value it as nu-
mismatically important then it is. There are certainly good reasons to think
of it this way since a great deal of thought and individual effort from many
people went into the concept and execution.
I often slam the 1804 dollar but that's just to use as an example of what many
find objectionable about moderns. I actually hold it in high regard (and the
set even moreso).
<< <i>I often slam the 1804 dollar but that's just to use as an example of what many
find objectionable about moderns. >>
I just do not see how anyone could slam a coin like the 1804 dollar.
<< <i>
I just do not see how anyone could slam a coin like the 1804 dollar.
>>
...Not, and mean it. But, then I can't understand why anyone would slam a 1999 Kennedy either.
<< <i>The 1804 Class I dollar is one of my dream coins. It's one of the few goals I have left in numismatics. With that said, I'm not so sure I'd want to achieve my goal with one that started as a PR65, went PF66 and then PR67 ... >>
I think the grade on that coin means almost nothing.
Is there a serious numismatist out there who would pay more for it in a 67 holder than he would have when it was graded 65?
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
<< <i>I often slam the 1804 dollar but that's just to use as an example of what many
find objectionable about moderns. >>
I just do not see how anyone could slam a coin like the 1804 dollar.
no sticker
Imagine the possibilities...
<< <i>And a nice souvenir, at that.
Imagine the possibilities...
AaRrrrGggHhhhhhhhh. The horror.
One does, however, worry that at some point, after so much handling, so many crackouts and resubmissions, the coins themselves will be compromised and damaged by the needless, incessant, unwarranted, abusive and even obnoxious excess handling. This comment applies to many many great U.S. coins, which are subjected to more game-playing than anyone could imagine.
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
You mean that someone
here gets respect? WOW!
Aint that sumthing.
WHA TAGOO SIAM!
Camelot
<< <i>Let's separate the glorious coins themselves from the hype and hucksterism of their promoters. The King of Siam set is a great American treasure. It is no less so for having been cross-dressed into multiple slabs and kited up to ever higher insured values. The same may be said of the Amon Carter 1794 dollar, which has also been accorded unprecedented hype since passing into the hands of its current owner. However, that in no way diminishes the coin itself.
One does, however, worry that at some point, after so much handling, so many crackouts and resubmissions, the coins themselves will be compromised and damaged by the needless, incessant, unwarranted, abusive and even obnoxious excess handling. This comment applies to many many great U.S. coins, which are subjected to more game-playing than anyone could imagine.
Best,
Sunnywood >>
How very sad, but true.
While the KoS is very important, I'd just as soon have the complete metal set of Libertas Americana medals (assuming the gold Libertas is still in hiding, oui ?
P.S. I never saw the actual coin, but the color images of the Childs 1804 looked nice.
<< <i>And a nice souvenir, at that.
Imagine the possibilities...
<< <i>The 1804 Class I dollar is one of my dream coins. It's one of the few goals I have left in numismatics. With that said, I'm not so sure I'd want to achieve my goal with one that started as a PR65, went PF66 and then PR67 ... >>
Hey TDN...
Seriously, is the grade of the Siam 1804 relevant? The provenance of the coin will dictate the selling price (and market, etc...). I have always been amused by people's reactions as the grades of marquee coins change when the plastic changes. It's funny how a coin gets "better" as it moves amongst the services.
And good luck picking up an 1804...I imagine it will be a great feeling when one is yours!
Lane
P.S. In case it came across wrong, I am not trying to be a smart a$$. People's changing perception of coins based on the current plastic have always fascinated me. I love the psychology of it.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>
<< <i>
I just do not see how anyone could slam a coin like the 1804 dollar.
>>
...Not, and mean it. >>
Well...then perhaps you should read "The Fantastic 1804 Dollar" by Newman and Bressett.
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Oh, and Benjamin Franklin messed up and didn't manage to get the medals done while he was in Paris, so Jefferson had to do it later for him.
Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, and Daniel Webster all posessed the silver set of Comitia Americana Medals. All the medals are stunning in design, most with extraordinary high-relief allegorical designs. It includes a silver Libertas Americana and Washington Before Boston. Most of these medals are extremely rare, with less than 10 examples known in silver. The John Stewart Medal ( at 11:00) is the rarest in the set and has only 2 known examples.
Not too shabby. Worth 20 million I would guess?
The King of Siam set is not shabby either. I do agree with Pistareen though! King of Siam? Who cares?
For Goodness sakes! George Washington owned this set!
Here it is, a piece of American History:
<< <i>The silver set of Comitia Americana medals was personally commissioned by Thomas Jefferson, and in 1789 was personally carried by him on the Clermont, from Paris to the USA, where it was rescued from the burning Clermont shortly after arriving. He gave the set to George Washington in March of 1790, and after Washington's death, it eventually found it's way to Daniel Webster's personal collection.
Oh, and Benjamin Franklin messed up and didn't manage to get the medals done while he was in Paris, so Jefferson had to do it later for him.
Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, and Daniel Webster all posessed the silver set of Comitia Americana Medals. All the medals are stunning in design, most with extraordinary high-relief allegorical designs. It includes a silver Libertas Americana and Washington Before Boston. Most of these medals are extremely rare, with less than 10 examples known in silver. The John Stewart Medal ( at 11:00) is the rarest in the set and has only 2 known examples.
Not too shabby. Worth 20 million I would guess?
The King of Siam set is not shabby either. I do agree with Pistareen though! King of Siam? Who cares?
For Goodness sakes! George Washington owned this set!
Here it is, a piece of American History:
Who moved the medals? Ten years ago the John Stewart medal was at 6 o'clock.
And I agree that the Comitia Ameriana set presented to George Washington in 1790 is perhaps the most important American numismatic artifact of all time.
Interesting to note JK's point that the Comitia Americana medals are the closest thing we Americans have to a 'royal collection'
or to a Renaissance era collection that's been tucked away in a cabinet in some castle for all of these years.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
Professional numismatic researchers like the esteemed JK often delve deeply into related fields of exonumia that are rich in history and content. But those of us who are true coin collectors at heart will always have a magnetic attraction to the core numismatic artifacts.
Best,
Sunnywood
Edited to add: Yes, I know that some dictionaries extend "numismatics" to include tokens and medals, but I am a stickler for proper usage based on etymology. Those objects are more properly categorized as related exonumia, as there is a very clear distinction between authorized currency of the realm and other objects. Anyway, regardless of semantics, I maintain this is apples and oranges. And in this case, both the apples and the oranges are quite tasty indeed !!!
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>And I agree that the Comitia Ameriana set presented to George Washington in 1790 is perhaps the most important American numismatic artifact of all time. >>
I think that the Gold Washington Before Boston medal at the Boston Public Library is insured for $20 million....
<< <i>The silver set of Comitia Americana medals was personally commissioned by Thomas Jefferson, and in 1789 was personally carried by him on the Clermont, from Paris to the USA, where it was rescued from the burning Clermont shortly after arriving. He gave the set to George Washington in March of 1790, and after Washington's death, it eventually found it's way to Daniel Webster's personal collection.
Oh, and Benjamin Franklin messed up and didn't manage to get the medals done while he was in Paris, so Jefferson had to do it later for him.
Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, and Daniel Webster all posessed the silver set of Comitia Americana Medals. All the medals are stunning in design, most with extraordinary high-relief allegorical designs. It includes a silver Libertas Americana and Washington Before Boston. Most of these medals are extremely rare, with less than 10 examples known in silver. The John Stewart Medal ( at 11:00) is the rarest in the set and has only 2 known examples.
Not too shabby. Worth 20 million I would guess?
The King of Siam set is not shabby either. I do agree with Pistareen though! King of Siam? Who cares?
For Goodness sakes! George Washington owned this set!
Here it is, a piece of American History:
That set belongs in the Smithsonian, along with all the other important US numismatic collections. It is a stunning collection indeed...
<< <i>And I agree that the Comitia Ameriana set presented to George Washington in 1790 is perhaps the most important American numismatic artifact of all time. >>
These are medals and not coins. Hence, they are not numismatic. They are exonumismatic. There is a difference.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i> That set belongs in the Smithsonian, along with all the other important US numismatic collections. It is a stunning collection indeed... >>
It is at the Massachusetts Historical Society, under the watchful eyes of Anne Bentley. It is in good hands. If they sent it to the Smithsonian, it will end up in a drawer somewhere.
<< <i>These are medals and not coins. Hence, they are not numismatic. >>
It depends on the definition you use.
According to Random House, Houghton Mifflin and Webster's dictionaries, medals are covered under numismatics.
According to PCGS, currency and tokens are covered under numismatics but medals are not listed.
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>"Capped Bust Dimes" ... it is the title of the thread that turned it into a "pi$$ing contest," as you so inelegantly put it. >>
touché
<< <i>Hey TDN...
Seriously, is the grade of the Siam 1804 relevant? The provenance of the coin will dictate the selling price (and market, etc...). I have always been amused by people's reactions as the grades of marquee coins change when the plastic changes. It's funny how a coin gets "better" as it moves amongst the services.
>>
In a way I agree & in a way I disagree. I'd love to own the coin, despite what appeared to me to be a partially effaced spot in the field. However, there ARE limits to one's imagination in the grading process. PR67? I think I'd have to crack it out and keep it raw.
<< <i>
In a way I agree & in a way I disagree. I'd love to own the coin, despite what appeared to me to be a partially effaced spot in the field. However, there ARE limits to one's imagination in the grading process. PR67? I think I'd have to crack it out and keep it raw.
I know what you mean. The next time it is in for some plastic replacement at the new ANACS, it will be PR-68...I am sure there will be some sort of incentive for the next company to slab it! I agree! Keep it raw along with the rest of the set!
While I am not a real fan of the 1804 (although I did like showing them to folks who visited the ANA Money Museum), I like this set because of its place in history.
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>. The same may be said of the Amon Carter 1794 dollar, which has also been accorded unprecedented hype since passing into the hands of its current owner. However, that in no way diminishes the coin itself.
. >>
Hype and ego, given he slapped his own name on the coin's pedigree.
<< <i>
<< <i>. The same may be said of the Amon Carter 1794 dollar, which has also been accorded unprecedented hype since passing into the hands of its current owner. However, that in no way diminishes the coin itself.
. >>
Hype and ego, given he slapped his own name on the coin's pedigree. >>
Let's not forget the experts hired to opine on what the coin MIGHT be! Namely, the first silver dollar struck. It is a monster coin, but nobody except Walter Breen could know for sure since he was the only modern numismatist who was there when it was struck (tongue-in-cheek!).
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>
<< <i>And I agree that the Comitia Ameriana set presented to George Washington in 1790 is perhaps the most important American numismatic artifact of all time. >>
These are medals and not coins. Hence, they are not numismatic. They are exonumismatic. There is a difference. >>
But the 1804 dollar in the King of Siam set was a regular issue "coin" that did circulate? And all of the 15 1804 dollars were struck in 1804 and not 30 or even 50 years later? And....let me guess...the later 1804 dollars were not clandestinely made either? Please.
If the Comitia American pieces are not numismatic in nature, then neither is the 1804 dollar. However, do not get me wrong, I love the King of Siam set as well, which is also extremely important to American numismatics.
The British Museum was begun in the 1750's after the death of Sir Hans Sloan, a former President of the Royal Society. The first housing of Sloan's various collections was in the Montagu House after that time.
The British Royal Mint Collection was officially begun in 1816 by Master of the Mint, William Wellesley Pole. Sir Joseph Banks, a member of the Privy Council Committee on Coin, and a coin collector himself, donated a small collection (100 or so) of coins and medals, together with some books in August 1818. He was, at the time, the distinguished President of the Royal Society.
The reference to America's national collection being started in 1838 by a nameless "mechanic" is the lowest opinion I have seen in numismatic literature regarding Adam Eckfeldt, then Chief Coiner since 1814. He had worked at the United States Mint continuously since 1795.
When Eckfeldt retired in 1839, his fellow workers respected him enough to present him with a large gold medal for his many years of service as an officer of that institution.
<< <i>
<< <i>And I agree that the Comitia Ameriana set presented to George Washington in 1790 is perhaps the most important American numismatic artifact of all time. >>
I think that the Gold Washington Before Boston medal at the Boston Public Library is insured for $20 million.... >>
Have we all forgotten about the Ephraim Brasher Gold Doubloon?
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
had in their pockets when they drafted the Articles of Confederation or the
Declaration of Independence, or (at least) The Constitution. They are very
uniquely American as well, even if they are relatively common.
Have we all forgotten about the Ephraim Brasher Gold Doubloon?
---------
How about a chain cent or a fugio. These are the coins the founding fathers
had in their pockets when they drafted the Articles of Confederation or the
Declaration of Independence, or (at least) The Constitution. They are very
uniquely American as well, even if they are relatively common.
Of course! There are many important coins/tokens/medals, like the issues mentioned above. But how many items can be positively connected to George Washington and Thomas Jefferson? I think that the "set" (in the original holder) is the most important factor with the 11 Comitia Americana medals that are the subject of this thread.
If this is the case, I would think any gold versions of the Comita Americana medals would be more significant than the entire set in silver. The silver sets given to Washington and Jefferson seem like they can be considered souvenirs compared to the gold versions that were individually awarded for service to the country.
The set of silver Comita Americana medals looks like a mere souvenir?
...when compared to a gold Comitia Americana medal.