I think PCGS and NGC are merely helping us make our coins more liquid. Why debate grading standards

Longacre

There's a reason why I don't buy raw rarities on Ebay. It comes down to whether the coin is authentic or not. Buying a rarity in a holder offered by PCGS or NGC, however, and the coin immediately assumes a measure of liquidity. Just like my reluctance to purchase a raw coin on Ebay, I get the opposite reaction when I try to sell a PCGS or NGC coin-- the coin is very easy to sell.

Should we stop wringing our hands over the current grading standards being used and whether we agree or disagree with them? Rather, should we finally all publicly admit that the main reason why we get our coins put in plastic is to ensure that they are as liquid as possible when we sell them? Does this hold particularly true for rarities? How liquid would a rarity truly be if it was not in a PCGS or NGC holder?

BECOKA

Liquidity is very important and I agree is probably a good percentage of the reason many have their coins slabbed.

On the other hand I find it far easier to look at my collection without worry because of these nice sturdy slabs. In addition I like the registry program and trying to share with photos .

BigRed

I like slabs ( PCGS-NGC) because of the guarantee, If I screw up bad that means they screwed up but they might foot the bill for the mistake. I am not perfect when it comes to coins and I know it and it helps to have 3 or 4 sets of eyes to help with my opinion. Counterfeits are getting very good and the last show I was at I was talking to a dealer who sent in 6 gold pieces and 4 of them come back counterfeit. This dealer has been in business for 35 years, it he cannot spot fakes I'm sure I can't.

7Jaguars

But the twin bugaboos of grade inflation and favoritism toward certain "vendors" is problematic with this scheme, especially with logarhythmic price differentials between single point mint state or proof levels.

tahoe98

<< <i>There's a reason why I don't buy raw rarities on Ebay. It comes down to whether the coin is authentic or not. Buying a rarity in a holder offered by PCGS or NGC, however, and the coin immediately assumes a measure of liquidity. Just like my reluctance to purchase a raw coin on Ebay, I get the opposite reaction when I try to sell a PCGS or NGC coin-- the coin is very easy to sell.

Should we stop wringing our hands over the current grading standards being used and whether we agree or disagree with them? Rather, should we finally all publicly admit that the main reason why we get our coins put in plastic is to ensure that they are as liquid as possible when we sell them? Does this hold particularly true for rarities? How liquid would a rarity truly be if it was not in a PCGS or NGC holder? >>

GoldenEyeNumismatics

You make some good points.

I do believe there is more to slabs than just liquidity, though. Sure, a PCGS MS65 coin about as liquid as a MS66, but if you crack out your MS65 and it get's into an MS66 holder, there is a big price jump to boot.

With rarities, I think people are mainly looking for an opinion of authenticity. Grade can certainly be important though, and there are a number of examples of rarities that have been upgraded and brought huge premiums over their previous sale price.

There's a lot more to be discussed regarding this topic, but it's hard to accurately put it in words.

ricko

Authenticity is extremely important... especially when rarities are involved. Grading becomes important for those who are selling.... the coin is important to collectors. Cheers, RickO

RedTiger

The grading companies are in business to make money. Period.

The grading companies are primarily marketing companies, grading is secondary.

Collectors can be an ornery bunch, and will debate anything and everything. Some dealers lost power and market share and have sour grapes. Some collectors prefer the bad old days and wax nostalgic about the days, not wanting to mention the many whizzed coins that passed for Unc, and many altered dates that were sold by dealers for the same prices as real coins.

The scary bridge the hobby is approaching is that the counterfeiters are now faking the slabs as well as the coins inside the slabs. This game is in its early stages. The next revision of counterfeit slabs may be frightening scary. I am already wary of buying certain types of "certified" coins on Ebay, and not just from foreign sellers. There is too much money to be made. Faking a piece of plastic, a label and a hologram are relatively easy tasks for someone with access to modern tools and equipment. The Chinese rolled out a fully functional fake I-phone within a week of release of the real one from Apple. Compare the resources needed for that fake, and compare it to a static piece of plastic with a metal disc inside.

PQMorgans

For me PCGS is a safety net and allows me to enjoy the hobby. In the 60's when I started there were only 2 coin shops in town one was great. If you bought a XF coin and went back a year later he bought back it as an XF but the other sold as an XF and then bought back as a VF every time. I am teaching my 2 young nephews about collecting. What better way to learn then to start out buying PCGS and studying the coins. When you buy a PCGS in MS65 you can always sell it as a MS65. Also I have come across a few dealers who will try and sell me a coin in a NGC and use the PCGS price guide.

I feel comfortable buying anything in a PCGS holder. As I get older and my need for glasses increases. I know PCGS will be my safety net.

When I or my wife has to sell them. It will be very easy to sell coins in PCGS holders. I do not have to worry about some dealer buying my coins from her at a lowball price telling her they are lower grades then they really are. She can sell them all thru an online auction. Same with any NGC I might have that I did not get a chance to crossover, selling at an online auction will bring a fair price for each coin.

Zoins

<< <i>The scary bridge the hobby is approaching is that the counterfeiters are now faking the slabs as well as the coins inside the slabs. This game is in its early stages. The next revision of counterfeit slabs may be frightening scary. I am already wary of buying certain types of "certified" coins on Ebay, and not just from foreign sellers. There is too much money to be made. Faking a piece of plastic, a label and a hologram are relatively easy tasks for someone with access to modern tools and equipment. >>

I agree it should not be difficult to make some injection molded plastic and a hologram. It will be interesting to see how slab technology evolves.

<< <i>The Chinese rolled out a fully functional fake I-phone within a week of release of the real one from Apple. >>

That's actually not that surprising since the real one from Apple is also made in China Compare that to a US shop trying to assemble one!

BlindedByEgo

<< <i>

Should we stop wringing our hands over the current grading standards being used and whether we agree or disagree with them? >>



I rather enjoy the wringing of hands, right along with the gnashing of teeth.

Unknown

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Trime

I believe that top TPG slabbed coins provide liquidity for the collector not only for authenticity but because of grade validation. The top end TPGs can provide grade validation only if standards are upheld. Thus it is in everyones benefit if grading standards are as precise and accurate as possible. Since grading is not a science but an art form there is plenty of room for complaints by the knowlegable or naive. Never the less, expert graders can judge a coin's grade by +/- 0.5 points by current standards most of the time. The situation is aggravated by the steepness of pricing by grade on unc and proof "rarities". A MS66 is usually priced much more than a MS65. Clearly repeated submissions allow maximum scoring even if standards were kept constant. It is this factor that is most likely to lead to gradeflation.
Many people want to believe their coins are plus one grade and other's coins are minus one grade. Even if they do not believe it, they want others to believe it. So keep wringing your hands; complacency is not a positive factor in the equation.

BAJJERFAN

Buying a slabbed coin is a big plus over buying the same coin raw, especially when the transaction is conducted over several thousand miles or otherwise sight unseen.

TwoSides2aCoin

My widgets are cheaper than your widgets
They're so cheap not even the Chinese mob wants to fake them

Newcomp103

<< <i>My widgets are cheaper than your widgets
They're so cheap not even the Chinese mob wants to fake them >>

ASUtodd

I like the fact that a holder helps to know for sure that a coin is authentic, HOWEVER.... I think that slabbed coins have driven the prices for coins through the roof. Those of us that are hobbyist find it harder and harder to obtain coins that have been slabbed. I can buy one of the new state quarters in pr70 for a certain price, however, once that coin is slabbed it almost triples in price. I don't understand this because the chances of a counterfeit in that genre is slim, I could be wrong though (just an oberservation). I'm not downing the slabbing of coins, like I said if I am buying a coin that is known to be counterfeited I will not buy it unless it is slabbed or it is from my local dealer. I do think that dealers and collectors have gone overboard with slabbing and much like our economy will crash in the future. Prices can only go so high before people refuse to pay them. I guess as a dealer you guys should get it while the getting is good! I know you guys must make a living so rock on while you can but I think there will be a shift in the hobby eventually. Who knows..I'm just a newbie to this. I will say this, slabbed or no slabbed coins, I want to thank you guys for your knowledge and input on the hobby!
Todd

fivecents

<< <i>Why debate grading standards? >>

Because grade = price or the value of the coin. It can be a little harder to sell a VF coin for XF money when the holder says VF. The grading standards can make your coin less liquid. Same can be said for the flip side or overgraded TPGS labels.

53BKid

There's much more to the grading than liquidity IMO LONGACRE, though I agree that it's a very significant element to their attraction. Like BECOKA, I feel that the PCGS slabs protect the coins very well. I 'handle' them more than if they were raw, particularly gold coins, and enjoy having my sons look at them without worry.

That said, I also agree with REALONE that in my experience the grading differs substantially between PCGS and NGC. Generally I have confidence that PCGS tneds to grade more accurately, and to higher standards compared with NGC graded coins. I think the market generally perceives this similarly as PCGS coins generally command higher premiums for coins of the same grades.

Mowgli

<< <i> Should we stop wringing our hands over the current grading standards being used and whether we agree or disagree with them? Rather, should we finally all publicly admit that the main reason why we get our coins put in plastic is to ensure that they are as liquid as possible when we sell them? Does this hold particularly true for rarities? How liquid would a rarity truly be if it was not in a PCGS or NGC holder? >>



I readily admit that coins in plastic are more easily sold. I do not agree that is why everyone buys a coin in plastic. I would think that more people buy them for assurances that they are authentic and graded accurately (or as accurately as we have come to expect). It does not follow, for me, that we should stop complaining about grading standards since grade drives price. When we have such a disparity among grading services, within the same service and even with the same grader, I think discussions about grading standards are going to happen. Yes plastic makes it more liquid but based on the discussions about NCG versus PCGS, this liquidity is affected by grading standards.

leothelyon

I think PCGS and NGC are merely helping us make our coins more liquid. Why debate grading standards?

Because we, as coin collectors, set the standards! A battle we're losing!

But since most will bitc about why their coins didn't grade higher, in the last year or so the ANA took the liberty in rewriting the standards along with the TGS, diminishing the relevance of the strike.


Leo