Sean Salisbury Walter Payton Walter Payton's success was more about his mind and his heart than his muscle. He's as phenomenal a running back as there ever was, and he's one of the best people ever to put on a uniform. Payton was as humble an athlete as you'll ever be around, and teammates loved to be around him. He wasn't a speed-burner, but he had enough speed to beat you. His toughness was remarkable. Payton never went out of bounds -- he looked you up. What's perhaps most amazing about his record is that for many years he played behind a less-than-stellar line on less-than-stellar teams. Payton's training regimen was second to none. God rest his soul, he's certainly missed. If you want to know how to play football like a gentleman, and how to play with heart, intelligence and guts, all you have to do is watch videotape of No. 34 running the football. There were some who may have caught or blocked better, but Payton did everything. He was unselfish, which is hard to find these days.
Mark Schlereth Jim Brown Jim Brown was the first running back with the size-and-speed combination. He had the ability to break long gains with his speed at any time and from any place on the field. Some backs could break one from 40 or 50 yards, but with his speed, he could break one from anywhere. Brown is the yardstick by which every other running back is measured. He set the bar as far as power and his ability to run over people and his nasty attitude. He brought the power and intimidation game to the running-back position. I don't think anyone before or since -- Earl Campbell would be the closest -- has had such a combination of size, power, speed and quickness. He encompassed all of those virtues and packaged it in one running back. I didn't grow up watching him play, but judging by the highlights on ESPN Classic, he must have been one of the most feared men to play against in the NFL.
Andrea Kremer Jim Brown In nine short seasons, the impact Jim Brown made on the league and in the record books is insurmountable. Culminated with his unique decision to walk away from the game while still in his prime, Brown's ability to amass great numbers in short career, defines his greatness on the field. A bulldozing force, Brown ran over people. If he played today, I still believe he'd be a dominant back.
Mark Malone Jim Brown First of all, any time you compare guys from different eras, you're charting dangerous territory. But from a physical standpoint, no one could take over a game like Jim Brown. He was just so physical, with great speed and strength -- it always took several players to tackle him. Though comparatively his career was short, he was still far and away the most dominant running back. Brown stands out to me as a running back before his time. He had great speed and was so punishing. Today's style of football looks for more versatile, Marshall Faulk-type backs who can run and catch. Brown wasn't asked to catch the ball often, but he was more physical than most linebackers and defensive linemen of his era. As great or as flashy as other backs may be -- and despite the numbers they post or the time span they played -- none were more productive or dominant than Jim Brown.
Merril Hoge Walter Payton Pound-for-pound, Walter Payton was the best, most complete back ever to play the game. Payton did more with less than any running back in NFL history. For the first eight or nine years of his career, opponents had one objective: stop Walter Payton. His proven durability -- he missed only one game in 13 years -- puts him in a special category. I played the position for 10 years, and I know that it's the most brutal position in football. No other position can compare. Payton missed only one game. He produced, and he never took a lick -- instead, he delivered hits. He believed in delivering and giving everything he had on every play. You never saw Payton stand there and take a hit. He dove and finished every run. He took people out for two-inch gains; he always finished runs and always delivered the blow.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jerry Rice, No one ever dominated his peers on a stat line over a career like this guy.
Wanted: Bell Brands FB and BB, Chiefs regionals especially those ugly milk cards, Coke caps, Topps and Fleer inserts and test issues from the 60's. 1981 FB Rack pack w/ Jan Stenerud on top.
<< <i>Jerry Rice, No one ever dominated his peers on a stat line over a career like this guy. >>
Don Hutson???He actually was further ahead of the #2 WRs in the stat lines of his era than Rice ever was...Tough to compare the 2 though, as passing game has evolved so much since Hutson's era in the 1940s..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
A 'warm and fuzzy' holiday season to u and your families!
edit:
I'd like to add Steve Largent's name to the list, if not already there! How about Largent and Rice to build your offense around, yeah, with "Sweetness" as your back?
<< <i>Barry Sanders. The greatest running back in the history of the NFL!!! A 5.1 CAREER rushing average running behind horrendous offensive lines. >>
5.1??? And the legend grows..lol
Facts:
Barry Sanders... 3062 carries, 15269 yds...That's a 4.98661 career average..Not even 5.0...
Jim Brown... 2359 carries, 12,312 yds...That's a 5.21916 career average...
What is your criteria for bad line vs. good line? Pro Bowls and All-Pro player comparisons don't work...When Jim Brown played there were between 12-14 teams in the league, yet the Pro Bowl and All-Pro teams were essentially the same size..During Barry's years between 28-30 teams to find Pro Bowlers from, so making the Pro Bowl in the 90's was about 2.5 times tougher than the 60s..That being said, Barry DID run behind 4 different Pro Bowl caliber O-lineman during his carrer:
Lomas Brown Kevin Glover Bill Fralic Jeff Hartings
I would hardly call that horrendous...
Fred Taylor is averaging 5.1 per carry this season, and the Jags haven't sent O-lineman to the Pro Bowl since 1999...He didn't even make the Pro Bowl this year...He must be your #3 all-time back?
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jim Brown was a man amongst boys in his day, there is no way to compare the two as they played in two different eras. Nobody can deny that Sanders was a top 5 running back all time as far as Im concerned though.
<< <i>Jim Brown was a man amongst boys in his day, there is no way to compare the two as they played in two different eras. Nobody can deny that Sanders was a top 5 running back all time as far as Im concerned though. >>
100% agreed...Top 5 absolutely..Maybe even the best of the 90's...But how does anyone put him #1 who's watched more than 5 minutes of Jim Brown or Walter Payton???
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I dont know who i would pick, but it would either be a QB or a MLB. I think a running back is obviously important, but i would rather build my team around a strong QB. Maybe a strong safety as well.
Andrea Kremer Jim Brown In nine short seasons, the impact Jim Brown made on the league and in the record books is insurmountable. Culminated with his unique decision to walk away from the game while still in his prime, Brown's ability to amass great numbers in short career, defines his greatness on the field. A bulldozing force, Brown ran over people. If he played today, I still believe he'd be a dominant back.
Well if Andrea Kremer says the best is Jim Brown, then who can argue with that? Case closed.
Barry was great fun to watch. Numbers don't mean nothing if they don't support Winning. You put Jim Brown on that same Lion Team Barry had and they win more games period. Possiblly even go deeper in the playoffs they years the lions made it. Jim Brown would have MADE that "Oh so bad offensive line" All-Pro's just by his presence.
I put Barry Sanders in the same catagory as Dan Marino. Big numbers but never great enough to make those around them better and demand a winning attitude. All the excuses don't hold snot with me.
The Offensive line excuse. come on get that a rest. You surely don't get those kind of numbers without some help. Jason is right on the money with his explanation of how Barry's inproper undisapline running confused and cost his own team. To many "IF BARRY'S" is growning thin. If Baryy had a line, If Barry Had still played, IF , If, If..... Theres no IF's with Jim Brown.
Ok boys here comes the bomshell. As fun as a circus act as if was watch Barry, I don't even place him in my top 10 Greatest backs ever.
I would never take him over Emmitt who's shear heart and soul determination to win like all the other Great Back is what Barry Sanders did not seem to have. Had Sanders been a cowboy his undisipline style would have cost the cowboys as well. Emmitt got the tough yards when the chip were down. Barry loses another 3 yards or is not even in the game during crunch time. NO WAY ON THIS PLANET I give up Emmitt Smith for a circus act like Barry Sanders(boy he was fun to watch!)
How is it that if your the "GREATEST BACK EVER" Your not even in the game on come crunch time? You can bet your ass Jim Brown was never taken out of the game on third and short.
Numbers are Overrated and ARE NOT the true tale of the tape for Greatness.
I'll stick with the REAL Legends
#1 JIM BROWN #2 JIM THORPE #3 GALE SAYERS #4 WALTER PAYTON #5 STEVE VAN BUREN #6 EARL CAMPBELL #7 OJ SIMPSON #8 EMMITT SMITH #9 BARRY SANDERS (ok I was kidding Barry is a Top 10 guy) #10 ROGER CRAIG
Nice to see Roger Craig get a mention..While he's not THE all-time greatest, I think he is extremely overlooked. He never gets HOF mention even though he was a key cog on those great 49ers teams and he became the blueprint for the Ricky Watters, Marshall Faulks of the world..
I think he's going to get his day in front of the HOF voters, but most likely not until he is a senior candidate in the future..A shame, because I think he's better than a few of the RBs already in the HOF...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
sorry bigredone, while I think it is a given Jim Brown was a better football player and probably the greatest ever, to say Barry didn't have a huge impact on the Lions is not accurate. Check the win-loss of those teams when Barry was there compared to when he left.
<< <i>Tom Brady Jim Brown Barry Sanders Jerry Rice Randy Moss Antonio Gates
Given equal O-lines and defenses, This would be my lineup >>
Antonio Gates???Over Ditka, Mackey, Winslow??? WOW..Hes good, but he's not all that...
Can't really argue with any of the other choices...Would be a great pairing of Jim Brown and Barry in the backfield..Thunder and lightning..lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Barry was great fun to watch. Numbers don't mean nothing if they don't support Winning. You put Jim Brown on that same Lion Team Barry had and they win more games period. Possiblly even go deeper in the playoffs they years the lions made it. Jim Brown would have MADE that "Oh so bad offensive line" All-Pro's just by his presence.
I put Barry Sanders in the same catagory as Dan Marino. Big numbers but never great enough to make those around them better and demand a winning attitude. All the excuses don't hold snot with me.
The Offensive line excuse. come on get that a rest. You surely don't get those kind of numbers without some help. Jason is right on the money with his explanation of how Barry's inproper undisapline running confused and cost his own team. To many "IF BARRY'S" is growning thin. If Baryy had a line, If Barry Had still played, IF , If, If..... Theres no IF's with Jim Brown.
Ok boys here comes the bomshell. As fun as a circus act as if was watch Barry, I don't even place him in my top 10 Greatest backs ever.
I would never take him over Emmitt who's shear heart and soul determination to win like all the other Great Back is what Barry Sanders did not seem to have. Had Sanders been a cowboy his undisipline style would have cost the cowboys as well. Emmitt got the tough yards when the chip were down. Barry loses another 3 yards or is not even in the game during crunch time. NO WAY ON THIS PLANET I give up Emmitt Smith for a circus act like Barry Sanders(boy he was fun to watch!)
How is it that if your the "GREATEST BACK EVER" Your not even in the game on come crunch time? You can bet your ass Jim Brown was never taken out of the game on third and short.
Numbers are Overrated and ARE NOT the true tale of the tape for Greatness.
I'll stick with the REAL Legends
#1 JIM BROWN #2 JIM THORPE #3 GALE SAYERS #4 WALTER PAYTON #5 STEVE VAN BUREN #6 EARL CAMPBELL #7 OJ SIMPSON #8 EMMITT SMITH #9 BARRY SANDERS (ok I was kidding Barry is a Top 10 guy) #10 ROGER CRAIG >>
I really take offense to your statement about Dan Marino that "Big numbers but never great enough to make those around them better and demand a winning attitude." Dan Marino was a leader on and off the field who ALWAYS put the team first. How can you blame Dan Marino when he simply didn't have the talent around him (or the coaching - as I've always contended that Shula retied 10 years too late)? How many HOFers played with Marino? A grand total of 1 - Dwight Stephenson who retired in 1987 - in Marino's 5th year in the league. If it wasn't for Marino, the 80's and 90's Dolphins would have been a .500 team at best.
It's easy to say that Montana or Elway or Fouts or Manning, ect ... are/were better QBs but look at the teams they played on vs. Marino. The only real comparison is Elway who didn't win a SB until Terrell Davis was on the team.
Regards,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
How many routes did Rice develop that were new?? Nearly all the routes that are run today are the ones that Hutson help bring into the league.
<< <i>
<< <i>Jerry Rice, No one ever dominated his peers on a stat line over a career like this guy. >>
Don Hutson???He actually was further ahead of the #2 WRs in the stat lines of his era than Rice ever was...Tough to compare the 2 though, as passing game has evolved so much since Hutson's era in the 1940s..
Jason >>
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
You are right... the Bears defensive line was awesome as their entire defense those 3-4 years. Pittsburgh, Dallas and San Francisco ran the table for several years at a time. The Bears defense won them a Super Bowl and I would agree they should be considered one of the best defensive lines ever.
Danny
Collecting Dallas Cowboys Rookies and Team Sets 1960-1989
Jim Brown ran against a bunch of slow, fat guys. The level of competition gets higher every year.
Jerry Rice played with Joe Montana + Steve Young and vice versa. That said, if only Barry Sanders had a team around him, the mind boggles as to what he may have done ...
<< <i>I think anyone would have a hard time arguing against #78 Bruce Smith in his hey day . . . >>
I'll take Reggie White all day..Bruce Smith was not very good against the run and tended to get outmuscled anytime he matched up with an extra large OT..His game was speed and quickness..If a big Tackle got his hands on Smith play over...
Reggie White on the other hand could overpower, outmanuver, or outquick pretty much any OT in the league...Oh yeah and he was a great run defender as well..
Smith is a first ballot HOFer though, no doubt about that...When he around the corner it was either going to be a sack or a QB knockdown everytime...One of the best pure pass rushers of all-time.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
My mistake according to NFL.com Barry Sanders has a lifetime 5.0 average. He is simply the best because of the quality of he defensive players that he competed against. And again, his lines couldn't open holes for him if their lives depended on it. Jim Brown completed against a lot smaller and slower defenses. If Barry ran behind the Dallas Cowboy lines of the 90's he might have a CAREER 6.0 average. Barry Sanders was a once-in-a lifetime running back that had the best pure natural ability of any football player in the NFL, PERIOD.
<< <i>My mistake according to NFL.com Barry Sanders has a lifetime 5.0 average. He is simply the best because of the quality of he defensive players that he competed against. And again, his lines couldn't open holes for him if their lives depended on it. Jim Brown completed against a lot smaller and slower defenses. If Barry ran behind the Dallas Cowboy lines of the 90's he might have a CAREER 6.0 average. Barry Sanders was a once-in-a lifetime running back that had the best pure natural ability of any football player in the NFL, PERIOD. >>
Ummm ok..Pretty much everything you said in this post was inaccurate.
1-MANY MANY times Barry had holes open that he didn't hit because he only saw a 4-5 yard gain. Even his own teammates will tell you that...He was a home run hitter, and he swung for the fences every play..Unfortunately that hurt his team by putting them in 3rd and 8s, 3rd and 9s constantly...
2-When Jim Brown played, players were not as large as they were today, agreed..But to say the quality of defense is better with 30 teams in the league vs. 14 teams in the league is laughable...The league today is VERY diluted talent wise..Not to mention, the rules now are MUCH MORE geared towards the offense..Back in the Jim Brown days, defensive players got away with a a lot more than they do today...If Sanders played in the 60's he wouldn't have lasted 10 seasons..Toughness wasn't exactly his calling card...
3-The Cowboys blocking scheme was built for the Emmitt Smith type back..If they employed the same blocking scheme with Barry in the backfield, he wouldn't have done any better (if not worse) than he did in Detroit..Yes, the O-line talent was better in Dallas, but it also had a lot to do with the scheme meeting the strengths of the player personnel. Barry would not have been a good fit in the Dallas scheme, because his game (in college AND the pros) was to create opportunities using his unique skill set rather than look for opportunities from his O-line...
4-Pure natural ability of any football player? He was the most elusive RB in NFL history, I wouldn't argue that..But he ran over no one..He wasn't exactly the fastest guy either, and was caught from behind many times in his career...Was an average receiver and below average blocker...As someone said before, how can you call a guy the greatest ever when Touchdown Tommy Vardell replaced him in the lineup every time his team got inside the 5 yard line??????lololol
If you want to say he was the most elusive player in NFL history..I wouldn't debate that..Greatest highlight reel player? Probably wouldn't argue that either...But he was a one trick pony..For me, IMO, to be the "greatest" player, you need to be great in all facets of the game..And/or be far better, above and beyond your peers, like Jim Brown or Don Hutson or Jerry Rice...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
If Jim Brown played with Barry Sanders he would be his blocking Fullback. He could probably open some nice holes for him. Your stuck in the 60's my friend.
The players in Jim Brown's era were for the most part out of shape and not near as fast as today's players. Are you in Jim Brown's family??
<< <i>If Jim Brown played with Barry Sanders he would be his blocking Fullback. He could probably open some nice holes for him. Your stuck in the 60's my friend.
The players in Jim Brown's era were for the most part out of shape and not near as fast as today's players. Are you in Jim Brown's family?? >>
Stuck in the 60s? I was born in the 70s...lol...I just like to remember the past greats rather than overhype a guy just because he was on TV more often and more recently...You're right though Jim could block well for Barry...Although Barry wouldn't be the starter, he would come in every once and awhile to try and break his patented 50 yard run..But as an every down player, that team would want Jim Brown in to lead the team to victories...He was a TD machine, and far more unstoppable than Barry...
Just because today's athletes are artificially enhanced, that doesn't make them any better than the greats of the past...Just ask Babe Ruth or "Sey Hey" Willie Mays...Jim Brown was head and shoulders above his peers..Barry was not any faster or bigger or better at anything other than avoiding contact than any of the other great RBs of the 90's...
To each his own..Its a shame you aren't more well versed on the pre-90's players..You're really missing out on seeing some GREAT football..IMO, better football than you see today...That was real football...What you see today is the corporate fluffed up product meant to capture the casual fans attention..It has obviously worked, football is by far the most popular sport in the land..But there is no comparison of the violence level of then vs. now...This is the Peyton/Brady era...QBs are untouchable, receivers can't be touched after 5 yards, blockers can use their hands...Its really impossible to compare the 2 eras...Best way to judge a player is vs. his peers...vs. the other players who played during the same time frame..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
btw, i agree 100% on everything JasP has said about Sanders. He was a human highlight film but there are other runningbacks i'd put ahead of him IMO >>
Thats the funniest thing about this, we aren't even discussing greatest RB here..We are talking greatest PLAYER in NFL history, the one who you would choose 1st if building a team...Barry Sanders over every other player whos ever played the game???Thats just crazy IMO...
Lawrence Taylor is easily the #1 OLB to ever play the game, so would be a good choice to build around...Definitely better than Barry Sanders..lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Mr say hey...compared to jimmy....barry is just break dancing in a football helmet. After a 5 yard loss..which was often....seeing barry spinning on his back the announcers would say, "is that barry doing the turtle again." If they played on the same team....since barry couldn't block my 92 year old blind grandmother on crutches..he would have to sit and watch a real running back. Lucky for him the new fiberglass benches wouldn't give him the wood splinters in his ars that they would have in jimmies day. The question was originally best player to build a team around. A top producer surely qualifies. Lets see....jim brown played 9 years. Produced 9 probowls and 9 all pro selections. A 100% Production. He led the NFL in rushing 8 of those 9 years and was mvp twice. His last year was his 2nd best and was the MVP. That was despite him having a big target painted on his shirt. Defenses knew who was getting the ball and still couldn't stop him. Talk about leaving during his prime!!!!! If he has played another 5 to 7 years like he could have easily....his numbers would have been gargantuan. Look at his movies...he was still built like a brick ****house. In the history of all team sports I can't think of any other player who dominated his sport like jim brown did....maybe wayne gretzky or bobby orr. I agree barry was great and just slips in my top 10 rb's Its too bad barry retired early also. He was fun to watch.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>Barry Sanders IS the greatest NFL player ever. Period!! >>
Well, then I stand corrected...
Since we are all building franchises here, we all can't build championship caliber teams..I mean only one of us could win a ring each season, right??? Somebody's got to lose..Might as well be the Barry Sanders franchise, just like the real thing...I'd be interested to hear who you would select as O-lineman who's blocking would be conducive to Barry's style...Not to mention a coach and a QB who would put up with Barry consistently not running the play called in the huddle...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
If I can get a little bit off-track here, what position would you people consider the starting point of your team? I know some would like a shut down corner or menacing LB but I would have to go with the Quarterback position. Tom Brady would be my guy!
Best available player...Never draft for "need" for a specific position because you'll always pass up a better player to do so...If Brady is your #1 guy in NFL history, the thats who you should take...
You know it might be fun to run a fantasy draft here where we can pick from any player in history??? We'd need about 10-12 guys to make it worthwhile...At the end run a poll on who we all think had the best overall draft...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
As I write this I am lounging on the couch watching Tom Brady finish off the season undefeated...its half time and the pats have a considerable lead. I have been skeptical about brady being in the QB elite. I have become a believer after this year. You can make a decent point about Brady. He is playing on a well coached team that works together....and they don't beat themselves. IMO impact players like RB's and QB's can control a game individually. More so a RB I think.....a quality QB still needs a supporting caste. Jerry Rice ditto...would still need a decent QB. A lawrence Taylor can sometimes control a game's outcome.
In the end it's still a team sport and the great individual who can match his talents with those of his teamates will make the most difference. A good example was emmitt smith.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>Best available player...Never draft for "need" for a specific position because you'll always pass up a better player to do so...If Brady is your #1 guy in NFL history, the thats who you should take...
You know it might be fun to run a fantasy draft here where we can pick from any player in history??? We'd need about 10-12 guys to make it worthwhile...At the end run a poll on who we all think had the best overall draft...
Comments
Brown, Payton NFL's best running backs
ESPN.com
Who is the best running back of all time?
Sean Salisbury Walter Payton
Walter Payton's success was more about his mind and his heart than his muscle. He's as phenomenal a running back as there ever was, and he's one of the best people ever to put on a uniform. Payton was as humble an athlete as you'll ever be around, and teammates loved to be around him. He wasn't a speed-burner, but he had enough speed to beat you. His toughness was remarkable. Payton never went out of bounds -- he looked you up. What's perhaps most amazing about his record is that for many years he played behind a less-than-stellar line on less-than-stellar teams. Payton's training regimen was second to none. God rest his soul, he's certainly missed. If you want to know how to play football like a gentleman, and how to play with heart, intelligence and guts, all you have to do is watch videotape of No. 34 running the football. There were some who may have caught or blocked better, but Payton did everything. He was unselfish, which is hard to find these days.
Mark Schlereth Jim Brown
Jim Brown was the first running back with the size-and-speed combination. He had the ability to break long gains with his speed at any time and from any place on the field. Some backs could break one from 40 or 50 yards, but with his speed, he could break one from anywhere. Brown is the yardstick by which every other running back is measured. He set the bar as far as power and his ability to run over people and his nasty attitude. He brought the power and intimidation game to the running-back position. I don't think anyone before or since -- Earl Campbell would be the closest -- has had such a combination of size, power, speed and quickness. He encompassed all of those virtues and packaged it in one running back. I didn't grow up watching him play, but judging by the highlights on ESPN Classic, he must have been one of the most feared men to play against in the NFL.
Andrea Kremer Jim Brown
In nine short seasons, the impact Jim Brown made on the league and in the record books is insurmountable. Culminated with his unique decision to walk away from the game while still in his prime, Brown's ability to amass great numbers in short career, defines his greatness on the field. A bulldozing force, Brown ran over people. If he played today, I still believe he'd be a dominant back.
Mark Malone Jim Brown
First of all, any time you compare guys from different eras, you're charting dangerous territory. But from a physical standpoint, no one could take over a game like Jim Brown. He was just so physical, with great speed and strength -- it always took several players to tackle him. Though comparatively his career was short, he was still far and away the most dominant running back. Brown stands out to me as a running back before his time. He had great speed and was so punishing. Today's style of football looks for more versatile, Marshall Faulk-type backs who can run and catch. Brown wasn't asked to catch the ball often, but he was more physical than most linebackers and defensive linemen of his era. As great or as flashy as other backs may be -- and despite the numbers they post or the time span they played -- none were more productive or dominant than Jim Brown.
Merril Hoge Walter Payton
Pound-for-pound, Walter Payton was the best, most complete back ever to play the game. Payton did more with less than any running back in NFL history. For the first eight or nine years of his career, opponents had one objective: stop Walter Payton. His proven durability -- he missed only one game in 13 years -- puts him in a special category. I played the position for 10 years, and I know that it's the most brutal position in football. No other position can compare. Payton missed only one game. He produced, and he never took a lick -- instead, he delivered hits. He believed in delivering and giving everything he had on every play. You never saw Payton stand there and take a hit. He dove and finished every run. He took people out for two-inch gains; he always finished runs and always delivered the blow.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
No one ever dominated his peers on a stat line over a career like this guy.
<< <i>Jerry Rice,
No one ever dominated his peers on a stat line over a career like this guy. >>
Don Hutson???He actually was further ahead of the #2 WRs in the stat lines of his era than Rice ever was...Tough to compare the 2 though, as passing game has evolved so much since Hutson's era in the 1940s..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Can't quantify it and I won't try - he was/is the standard of excellence.
"Sweetness"
rd
A 'warm and fuzzy' holiday season to u and your families!
edit:
I'd like to add Steve Largent's name to the list, if not already there! How about Largent and Rice to build your offense around, yeah, with "Sweetness" as your back?
Quicksilver Messenger Service - Smokestack Lightning (Live) 1968
Quicksilver Messenger Service - The Hat (Live) 1971
2500 games
3 hours per game
7500 hours watching pro Football
312 days worth
Or, 10 month's of my life watching pro football. I need help.......
Great debate guys. Looks like everyone has a solid opinion here
on who they feel is the greatest.
Maybe we should start another thread asking, 'Who is your favorite player of all-time in Football history?'
edited for grammar.
Offense
#1 Roger Staubach
#2 Earl Campbell
#3 Jerry Rice
Defense
#1 Lawrence Taylor
#2 Randy White
#3 Deion Sanders
Special Teams
#1 Morten Anderson
#2 Ray Guy
Offensive Line
#1 80s Redskins
#2 90s Cowboys
#3 80s 49ers
Defensive Line
#1 70s Steelers
#2 70s Cowboys
#3 80s 49ers
Now, that team may have won a few games!
Danny
<< <i>Barry Sanders. The greatest running back in the history of the NFL!!! A 5.1 CAREER rushing average running behind horrendous offensive lines. >>
5.1??? And the legend grows..lol
Facts:
Barry Sanders...
3062 carries, 15269 yds...That's a 4.98661 career average..Not even 5.0...
Jim Brown...
2359 carries, 12,312 yds...That's a 5.21916 career average...
What is your criteria for bad line vs. good line? Pro Bowls and All-Pro player comparisons don't work...When Jim Brown played there were between 12-14 teams in the league, yet the Pro Bowl and All-Pro teams were essentially the same size..During Barry's years between 28-30 teams to find Pro Bowlers from, so making the Pro Bowl in the 90's was about 2.5 times tougher than the 60s..That being said, Barry DID run behind 4 different Pro Bowl caliber O-lineman during his carrer:
Lomas Brown
Kevin Glover
Bill Fralic
Jeff Hartings
I would hardly call that horrendous...
Fred Taylor is averaging 5.1 per carry this season, and the Jags haven't sent O-lineman to the Pro Bowl since 1999...He didn't even make the Pro Bowl this year...He must be your #3 all-time back?
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Jim Brown was a man amongst boys in his day, there is no way to compare the two as they played in two different eras. Nobody can deny that Sanders was a top 5 running back all time as far as Im concerned though. >>
100% agreed...Top 5 absolutely..Maybe even the best of the 90's...But how does anyone put him #1 who's watched more than 5 minutes of Jim Brown or Walter Payton???
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
http://sportsfansnews.com/author/andy-fischer/
In nine short seasons, the impact Jim Brown made on the league and in the record books is insurmountable. Culminated with his unique decision to walk away from the game while still in his prime, Brown's ability to amass great numbers in short career, defines his greatness on the field. A bulldozing force, Brown ran over people. If he played today, I still believe he'd be a dominant back.
Well if Andrea Kremer says the best is Jim Brown, then who can argue with that? Case closed.
Barry was great fun to watch. Numbers don't mean nothing if they don't support Winning. You put Jim Brown on that same Lion Team Barry had and they win more games period. Possiblly even go deeper in the playoffs they years the lions made it. Jim Brown would have MADE that "Oh so bad offensive line" All-Pro's just by his presence.
I put Barry Sanders in the same catagory as Dan Marino. Big numbers but never great enough to make those around them better and demand a winning attitude. All the excuses don't hold snot with me.
The Offensive line excuse. come on get that a rest. You surely don't get those kind of numbers without some help. Jason is right on the money with his explanation of how Barry's inproper undisapline running confused and cost his own team.
To many "IF BARRY'S" is growning thin. If Baryy had a line, If Barry Had still played, IF , If, If.....
Theres no IF's with Jim Brown.
Ok boys here comes the bomshell. As fun as a circus act as if was watch Barry, I don't even place him in my top 10 Greatest backs ever.
I would never take him over Emmitt who's shear heart and soul determination to win like all the other Great Back is what Barry Sanders did not seem to have. Had Sanders been a cowboy his undisipline style would have cost the cowboys as well. Emmitt got the tough yards when the chip were down. Barry loses another 3 yards or is not even in the game during crunch time. NO WAY ON THIS PLANET I give up Emmitt Smith for a circus act like Barry Sanders(boy he was fun to watch!)
How is it that if your the "GREATEST BACK EVER" Your not even in the game on come crunch time? You can bet your ass Jim Brown was never taken out of the game on third and short.
Numbers are Overrated and ARE NOT the true tale of the tape for Greatness.
I'll stick with the REAL Legends
#1 JIM BROWN
#2 JIM THORPE
#3 GALE SAYERS
#4 WALTER PAYTON
#5 STEVE VAN BUREN
#6 EARL CAMPBELL
#7 OJ SIMPSON
#8 EMMITT SMITH
#9 BARRY SANDERS (ok I was kidding Barry is a Top 10 guy)
#10 ROGER CRAIG
I think he's going to get his day in front of the HOF voters, but most likely not until he is a senior candidate in the future..A shame, because I think he's better than a few of the RBs already in the HOF...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jim Brown
Barry Sanders
Jerry Rice
Randy Moss
Antonio Gates
Given equal O-lines and defenses, This would be my lineup
<< <i>Tom Brady
Jim Brown
Barry Sanders
Jerry Rice
Randy Moss
Antonio Gates
Given equal O-lines and defenses, This would be my lineup >>
Antonio Gates???Over Ditka, Mackey, Winslow??? WOW..Hes good, but he's not all that...
Can't really argue with any of the other choices...Would be a great pairing of Jim Brown and Barry in the backfield..Thunder and lightning..lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Im with Jason
Barry was great fun to watch. Numbers don't mean nothing if they don't support Winning. You put Jim Brown on that same Lion Team Barry had and they win more games period. Possiblly even go deeper in the playoffs they years the lions made it. Jim Brown would have MADE that "Oh so bad offensive line" All-Pro's just by his presence.
I put Barry Sanders in the same catagory as Dan Marino. Big numbers but never great enough to make those around them better and demand a winning attitude. All the excuses don't hold snot with me.
The Offensive line excuse. come on get that a rest. You surely don't get those kind of numbers without some help. Jason is right on the money with his explanation of how Barry's inproper undisapline running confused and cost his own team.
To many "IF BARRY'S" is growning thin. If Baryy had a line, If Barry Had still played, IF , If, If.....
Theres no IF's with Jim Brown.
Ok boys here comes the bomshell. As fun as a circus act as if was watch Barry, I don't even place him in my top 10 Greatest backs ever.
I would never take him over Emmitt who's shear heart and soul determination to win like all the other Great Back is what Barry Sanders did not seem to have. Had Sanders been a cowboy his undisipline style would have cost the cowboys as well. Emmitt got the tough yards when the chip were down. Barry loses another 3 yards or is not even in the game during crunch time. NO WAY ON THIS PLANET I give up Emmitt Smith for a circus act like Barry Sanders(boy he was fun to watch!)
How is it that if your the "GREATEST BACK EVER" Your not even in the game on come crunch time? You can bet your ass Jim Brown was never taken out of the game on third and short.
Numbers are Overrated and ARE NOT the true tale of the tape for Greatness.
I'll stick with the REAL Legends
#1 JIM BROWN
#2 JIM THORPE
#3 GALE SAYERS
#4 WALTER PAYTON
#5 STEVE VAN BUREN
#6 EARL CAMPBELL
#7 OJ SIMPSON
#8 EMMITT SMITH
#9 BARRY SANDERS (ok I was kidding Barry is a Top 10 guy)
#10 ROGER CRAIG >>
I really take offense to your statement about Dan Marino that "Big numbers but never great enough to make those around them better and demand a winning attitude." Dan Marino was a leader on and off the field who ALWAYS put the team first. How can you blame Dan Marino when he simply didn't have the talent around him (or the coaching - as I've always contended that Shula retied 10 years too late)? How many HOFers played with Marino? A grand total of 1 - Dwight Stephenson who retired in 1987 - in Marino's 5th year in the league. If it wasn't for Marino, the 80's and 90's Dolphins would have been a .500 team at best.
It's easy to say that Montana or Elway or Fouts or Manning, ect ... are/were better QBs but look at the teams they played on vs. Marino. The only real comparison is Elway who didn't win a SB until Terrell Davis was on the team.
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>As a kid of the 70-80s, if I were starting an expansion team from scratch... my first few picks would look something like this...
Offense
#1 Roger Staubach
#2 Earl Campbell
#3 Jerry Rice
Defense
#1 Lawrence Taylor
#2 Randy White
#3 Deion Sanders
Special Teams
#1 Morten Anderson
#2 Ray Guy
Offensive Line
#1 80s Redskins
#2 90s Cowboys
#3 80s 49ers
Defensive Line
#1 70s Steelers
#2 70s Cowboys
#3 80s 49ers
Now, that team may have won a few games!
Danny >>
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>
<< <i>Jerry Rice,
No one ever dominated his peers on a stat line over a career like this guy. >>
Don Hutson???He actually was further ahead of the #2 WRs in the stat lines of his era than Rice ever was...Tough to compare the 2 though, as passing game has evolved so much since Hutson's era in the 1940s..
Jason >>
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
You are right... the Bears defensive line was awesome as their entire defense those 3-4 years. Pittsburgh, Dallas and San Francisco ran the table for several years at a time. The Bears defense won them a Super Bowl and I would agree they should be considered one of the best defensive lines ever.
Danny
G GS Att Yds TD Lng Y/A
Career 38 23 515 2782 16 92 5.4
Not bad for someone who played the game as a hobby.
The fulltimers include (in no particular order)
1. Walter Payton
2. Earl Campbell
3. Roger Staubach--you knew that was coming
4. Jack Lambert
5. Ed Too Tall Jones
6. Ronnie Lott
Dallas Cowboys
SuperBowl MVPs
Heisman Trophy Winers
Brian
Dallas Cowboys
SuperBowl MVPs
Heisman Trophy Winers
Thank you! This set is tough enough to complete... I can't imagine how the HOF FB guys do it!
Have a Merry Christmas!
Danny
-Randy Newman
Tom Brady, even though I hate him.
Jim Brown ran against a bunch of slow, fat guys.
The level of competition gets higher every year.
Jerry Rice played with Joe Montana + Steve Young and vice versa.
That said, if only Barry Sanders had a team around him, the mind boggles as to what he may have done ...
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
<< <i>I think anyone would have a hard time arguing against #78 Bruce Smith in his hey day . . .
I'll take Reggie White all day..Bruce Smith was not very good against the run and tended to get outmuscled anytime he matched up with an extra large OT..His game was speed and quickness..If a big Tackle got his hands on Smith play over...
Reggie White on the other hand could overpower, outmanuver, or outquick pretty much any OT in the league...Oh yeah and he was a great run defender as well..
Smith is a first ballot HOFer though, no doubt about that...When he around the corner it was either going to be a sack or a QB knockdown everytime...One of the best pure pass rushers of all-time.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>My mistake according to NFL.com Barry Sanders has a lifetime 5.0 average. He is simply the best because of the quality of he defensive players that he competed against. And again, his lines couldn't open holes for him if their lives depended on it. Jim Brown completed against a lot smaller and slower defenses. If Barry ran behind the Dallas Cowboy lines of the 90's he might have a CAREER 6.0 average. Barry Sanders was a once-in-a lifetime running back that had the best pure natural ability of any football player in the NFL, PERIOD. >>
Ummm ok..Pretty much everything you said in this post was inaccurate.
1-MANY MANY times Barry had holes open that he didn't hit because he only saw a 4-5 yard gain. Even his own teammates will tell you that...He was a home run hitter, and he swung for the fences every play..Unfortunately that hurt his team by putting them in 3rd and 8s, 3rd and 9s constantly...
2-When Jim Brown played, players were not as large as they were today, agreed..But to say the quality of defense is better with 30 teams in the league vs. 14 teams in the league is laughable...The league today is VERY diluted talent wise..Not to mention, the rules now are MUCH MORE geared towards the offense..Back in the Jim Brown days, defensive players got away with a a lot more than they do today...If Sanders played in the 60's he wouldn't have lasted 10 seasons..Toughness wasn't exactly his calling card...
3-The Cowboys blocking scheme was built for the Emmitt Smith type back..If they employed the same blocking scheme with Barry in the backfield, he wouldn't have done any better (if not worse) than he did in Detroit..Yes, the O-line talent was better in Dallas, but it also had a lot to do with the scheme meeting the strengths of the player personnel. Barry would not have been a good fit in the Dallas scheme, because his game (in college AND the pros) was to create opportunities using his unique skill set rather than look for opportunities from his O-line...
4-Pure natural ability of any football player? He was the most elusive RB in NFL history, I wouldn't argue that..But he ran over no one..He wasn't exactly the fastest guy either, and was caught from behind many times in his career...Was an average receiver and below average blocker...As someone said before, how can you call a guy the greatest ever when Touchdown Tommy Vardell replaced him in the lineup every time his team got inside the 5 yard line??????lololol
If you want to say he was the most elusive player in NFL history..I wouldn't debate that..Greatest highlight reel player? Probably wouldn't argue that either...But he was a one trick pony..For me, IMO, to be the "greatest" player, you need to be great in all facets of the game..And/or be far better, above and beyond your peers, like Jim Brown or Don Hutson or Jerry Rice...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
The players in Jim Brown's era were for the most part out of shape and not near as fast as today's players. Are you in Jim Brown's family??
<< <i>If Jim Brown played with Barry Sanders he would be his blocking Fullback. He could probably open some nice holes for him. Your stuck in the 60's my friend.
The players in Jim Brown's era were for the most part out of shape and not near as fast as today's players. Are you in Jim Brown's family?? >>
Stuck in the 60s? I was born in the 70s...lol...I just like to remember the past greats rather than overhype a guy just because he was on TV more often and more recently...You're right though Jim could block well for Barry...Although Barry wouldn't be the starter, he would come in every once and awhile to try and break his patented 50 yard run..But as an every down player, that team would want Jim Brown in to lead the team to victories...He was a TD machine, and far more unstoppable than Barry...
Just because today's athletes are artificially enhanced, that doesn't make them any better than the greats of the past...Just ask Babe Ruth or "Sey Hey" Willie Mays...Jim Brown was head and shoulders above his peers..Barry was not any faster or bigger or better at anything other than avoiding contact than any of the other great RBs of the 90's...
To each his own..Its a shame you aren't more well versed on the pre-90's players..You're really missing out on seeing some GREAT football..IMO, better football than you see today...That was real football...What you see today is the corporate fluffed up product meant to capture the casual fans attention..It has obviously worked, football is by far the most popular sport in the land..But there is no comparison of the violence level of then vs. now...This is the Peyton/Brady era...QBs are untouchable, receivers can't be touched after 5 yards, blockers can use their hands...Its really impossible to compare the 2 eras...Best way to judge a player is vs. his peers...vs. the other players who played during the same time frame..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Lawrence Taylor is the best defensive player i've ever seen. He could do it all and he gave opposing offensive cordinators nightmares
btw, i agree 100% on everything JasP has said about Sanders. He was a human highlight film but there are other runningbacks i'd put ahead of him IMO
<< <i>
btw, i agree 100% on everything JasP has said about Sanders. He was a human highlight film but there are other runningbacks i'd put ahead of him IMO >>
Thats the funniest thing about this, we aren't even discussing greatest RB here..We are talking greatest PLAYER in NFL history, the one who you would choose 1st if building a team...Barry Sanders over every other player whos ever played the game???Thats just crazy IMO...
Lawrence Taylor is easily the #1 OLB to ever play the game, so would be a good choice to build around...Definitely better than Barry Sanders..lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
If they played on the same team....since barry couldn't block my 92 year old blind grandmother on crutches..he would have to sit and watch a real running back. Lucky for him the new fiberglass benches wouldn't give him the wood splinters in his ars that they would have in jimmies day.
The question was originally best player to build a team around. A top producer surely qualifies. Lets see....jim brown played 9 years.
Produced 9 probowls and 9 all pro selections. A 100% Production. He led the NFL in rushing 8 of those 9 years and was mvp twice. His last year was his 2nd best and was the MVP. That was despite him having a big target painted on his shirt. Defenses knew who was getting the ball and still couldn't stop him. Talk about leaving during his prime!!!!! If he has played another 5 to 7 years like he could have easily....his numbers would have been gargantuan. Look at his movies...he was still built like a brick ****house.
In the history of all team sports I can't think of any other player who dominated his sport like jim brown did....maybe wayne gretzky or bobby orr.
I agree barry was great and just slips in my top 10 rb's Its too bad barry retired early also. He was fun to watch.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>Barry Sanders IS the greatest NFL player ever. Period!! >>
Awesome!
<< <i>Barry Sanders IS the greatest NFL player ever. Period!! >>
Well, then I stand corrected...
Since we are all building franchises here, we all can't build championship caliber teams..I mean only one of us could win a ring each season, right??? Somebody's got to lose..Might as well be the Barry Sanders franchise, just like the real thing...I'd be interested to hear who you would select as O-lineman who's blocking would be conducive to Barry's style...Not to mention a coach and a QB who would put up with Barry consistently not running the play called in the huddle...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
You know it might be fun to run a fantasy draft here where we can pick from any player in history??? We'd need about 10-12 guys to make it worthwhile...At the end run a poll on who we all think had the best overall draft...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
IMO impact players like RB's and QB's can control a game individually. More so a RB I think.....a quality QB still needs a supporting caste. Jerry Rice ditto...would still need a decent QB. A lawrence Taylor can sometimes control a game's outcome.
In the end it's still a team sport and the great individual who can match his talents with those of his teamates will make the most difference.
A good example was emmitt smith.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>Best available player...Never draft for "need" for a specific position because you'll always pass up a better player to do so...If Brady is your #1 guy in NFL history, the thats who you should take...
You know it might be fun to run a fantasy draft here where we can pick from any player in history??? We'd need about 10-12 guys to make it worthwhile...At the end run a poll on who we all think had the best overall draft...
Jason >>
I would be game for this!