Are First Strike Coins A Myth?
YaHa
Posts: 4,220 ✭
I had a talk with a director at the West Point mint a few months ago and this is what she said when I complained about my damaged 2006 Anniversary Reverse Proof Sets that I returned.
I asked her how can a collector like myself get quality coins like dealers and huge coin companies get. I told her I order the coins I want when they first come out to have a chance at 1st strikes. He told me that the mint changes 'Dies' every 2500 strikes and 1st strikes coins that are being sold after the grading companies deemed them so with the their certification label is totally against the law.
The director tells me after the federal government finally stops the illegal practices by the grading companies using such first Strikes or any mention of "First" on their labels there will be a huge fine and all coins deem "First Strikes" will be a myth as originally stated in the complaint.
Collectors will still have beautiful mint coins but will lose money by paying premium dollars for the "Myth"
Has anyone else ever heard this. Does it make sense to you if the dies are changed every 2500 strikes that is why there are so many high grades and more 70's on modern coins in the past 10 years.
Lastly, I have seen many different labels on coins in the past 5 years. First Strikes, First Day Of Issue, First Releases, First 50,000 coins, Early Releases, On and On. Thanks For any comments to this question. Yaha
I asked her how can a collector like myself get quality coins like dealers and huge coin companies get. I told her I order the coins I want when they first come out to have a chance at 1st strikes. He told me that the mint changes 'Dies' every 2500 strikes and 1st strikes coins that are being sold after the grading companies deemed them so with the their certification label is totally against the law.
The director tells me after the federal government finally stops the illegal practices by the grading companies using such first Strikes or any mention of "First" on their labels there will be a huge fine and all coins deem "First Strikes" will be a myth as originally stated in the complaint.
Collectors will still have beautiful mint coins but will lose money by paying premium dollars for the "Myth"
Has anyone else ever heard this. Does it make sense to you if the dies are changed every 2500 strikes that is why there are so many high grades and more 70's on modern coins in the past 10 years.
Lastly, I have seen many different labels on coins in the past 5 years. First Strikes, First Day Of Issue, First Releases, First 50,000 coins, Early Releases, On and On. Thanks For any comments to this question. Yaha
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Comments
rarity such as a FS, will impart added value.
Camelot
The amount of MS70's being produced hasn't changed. The only thing that has is the number of MS70 labels that PCGS and NGC are churning out.
Now that being said, if I see a coin I like, and it's first strike and it's at a reasonable price below GS, than it makes it all more the better of a deal when its time to resell.
I would never, never, in a million years pay extra for a coin because it's a first strike. To pay above spot on a bullion coin simply because of a marketing tool is ridiculous.
I know this sound contradictory but, hey, that's the way it is.
<< <i>If I saw this slab at an auction 15 years from now I would be very interested because I would know that it was slabbed in the first 30 days of release. And it hasnt been sent in multiple times for grading. The desire wont be from the so-called First Strike, but from knowing it was only slabbed once in the first 30 days.
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Why would anyone send an MS70 coin in for regrade?
FirstStrike 70 or Non-FS 70 will not be resubmitted for any reason, ever. So it boils down to the vaule perceived or otherwise in the FS label.
Collector of Early 20th Century U.S. Coinage.
ANA Member R-3147111
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<< <i>If I saw this slab at an auction 15 years from now I would be very interested because I would know that it was slabbed in the first 30 days of release. And it hasnt been sent in multiple times for grading. The desire wont be from the so-called First Strike, but from knowing it was only slabbed once in the first 30 days.
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Why would anyone send an MS70 coin in for regrade?
FirstStrike 70 or Non-FS 70 will not be resubmitted for any reason, ever. So it boils down to the vaule perceived or otherwise in the FS label. >>
No, your right. No one would send in a 70 for a regrade. Bad example on my part. But ya know what I mean.
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<< <i>If I saw this slab at an auction 15 years from now I would be very interested because I would know that it was slabbed in the first 30 days of release. And it hasnt been sent in multiple times for grading. The desire wont be from the so-called First Strike, but from knowing it was only slabbed once in the first 30 days. >>
Why would anyone send an MS70 coin in for regrade?
FirstStrike 70 or Non-FS 70 will not be resubmitted for any reason, ever. So it boils down to the vaule perceived or otherwise in the FS label. >>
No, your right. No one would send in a 70 for a regrade. Bad example on my part. But ya know what I mean. >>
Most people won't bother sending in UM-NCLT for a regrade, 69s or 70s.
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
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<< <i>If I saw this slab at an auction 15 years from now I would be very interested because I would know that it was slabbed in the first 30 days of release. And it hasnt been sent in multiple times for grading. The desire wont be from the so-called First Strike, but from knowing it was only slabbed once in the first 30 days. >>
Why would anyone send an MS70 coin in for regrade?
FirstStrike 70 or Non-FS 70 will not be resubmitted for any reason, ever. So it boils down to the vaule perceived or otherwise in the FS label. >>
No, your right. No one would send in a 70 for a regrade. Bad example on my part. But ya know what I mean. >>
Most people won't bother sending in UM-NCLT for a regrade, 69s or 70s. >>
Ok. So what is your point?
Collector of Early 20th Century U.S. Coinage.
ANA Member R-3147111
<< <i>Most people won't bother sending in UM-NCLT for a regrade, 69s or 70s. >>
I've cracked out a few, and have obtained the upgrade from 69 to 70.
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<< <i>If I saw this slab at an auction 15 years from now I would be very interested because I would know that it was slabbed in the first 30 days of release. And it hasnt been sent in multiple times for grading. The desire wont be from the so-called First Strike, but from knowing it was only slabbed once in the first 30 days. >>
Why would anyone send an MS70 coin in for regrade?
FirstStrike 70 or Non-FS 70 will not be resubmitted for any reason, ever. So it boils down to the vaule perceived or otherwise in the FS label. >>
No, your right. No one would send in a 70 for a regrade. Bad example on my part. But ya know what I mean. >>
Most people won't bother sending in UM-NCLT for a regrade, 69s or 70s. >>
Ok. So what is your point? >>
I thought my point would be obvious but I guess not. It's that no one needs a slab to say a modern hasn't been cracked and resubmitted because the practice really doesn't happen that much. People don't try to upgrade 69s to 70s the same way they try to upgrade 58s to 63s.
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<< <i>Most people won't bother sending in UM-NCLT for a regrade, 69s or 70s. >>
I've cracked out a few, and have obtained the upgrade from 69 to 70. >>
While there will always be outliers, my impression is that this practice for UM-NCLT is orders of magnitude less than for classics.
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<< <i>If I saw this slab at an auction 15 years from now I would be very interested because I would know that it was slabbed in the first 30 days of release. And it hasnt been sent in multiple times for grading. The desire wont be from the so-called First Strike, but from knowing it was only slabbed once in the first 30 days. >>
Why would anyone send an MS70 coin in for regrade?
FirstStrike 70 or Non-FS 70 will not be resubmitted for any reason, ever. So it boils down to the vaule perceived or otherwise in the FS label. >>
No, your right. No one would send in a 70 for a regrade. Bad example on my part. But ya know what I mean. >>
Most people won't bother sending in UM-NCLT for a regrade, 69s or 70s. >>
Ok. So what is your point? >>
I thought my point would be obvious but I guess not. It's that no one needs a slab to say a modern hasn't been cracked and resubmitted because the practice just doesn't happen. People don't try to upgrade 69s to 70s the same way they try to upgrade 58s to 63s. >>
People were trying to upgrade the 20th Anniversary Gold 69DCAMS to get 70DCAMS by the hundreds !
Ask me no questions, I'll tell you no lies.
<< <i>People were trying to upgrade the 20th Anniversary Gold 69DCAMS to get 70DCAMS by the hundreds ! >>
Are there many obviously over graded 70DCAMs?
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<< <i>If I saw this slab at an auction 15 years from now I would be very interested because I would know that it was slabbed in the first 30 days of release. And it hasnt been sent in multiple times for grading. The desire wont be from the so-called First Strike, but from knowing it was only slabbed once in the first 30 days. >>
Why would anyone send an MS70 coin in for regrade?
FirstStrike 70 or Non-FS 70 will not be resubmitted for any reason, ever. So it boils down to the vaule perceived or otherwise in the FS label. >>
No, your right. No one would send in a 70 for a regrade. Bad example on my part. But ya know what I mean. >>
Most people won't bother sending in UM-NCLT for a regrade, 69s or 70s. >>
Ok. So what is your point? >>
I thought my point would be obvious but I guess not. It's that no one needs a slab to say a modern hasn't been cracked and resubmitted because the practice just doesn't happen. People don't try to upgrade 69s to 70s the same way they try to upgrade 58s to 63s. >>
Wow. Lot's of quotes here.
The issue isn't who is going to crack-out a 69 for an upgrade but rather the value that the FS label adds to an MS 70 coin. Perhaps the market adds a premium to the FS label today, but the future of that premium remains to be seen. An MS70 is an MS70 from today through infinity irrespective of FS or Non-FS. Capiche?
Collector of Early 20th Century U.S. Coinage.
ANA Member R-3147111
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<< <i>People were trying to upgrade the 20th Anniversary Gold 69DCAMS to get 70DCAMS by the hundreds ! >>
Are there many obviously over graded 70DCAMs? >>
Last time I looked the 2006-W First Strike 20th Anniversary Gold PCGS PR70DCAM was a $8000.00 coin and the non-First Strike was quite lower
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<< <i>People were trying to upgrade the 20th Anniversary Gold 69DCAMS to get 70DCAMS by the hundreds ! >>
Are there many obviously over graded 70DCAMs? >>
Last time I looked the 2006-W First Strike 20th Anniversary Gold PCGS PR70DCAM was a $8000.00 coin >>
Was it over graded?
<< <i>The coins themselves are not myths, as they do exist. However, the idea that they are anything special is in fact, a myth. Anyone who says otherwise is only fooling themselves. >>
I guess that would apply to me then.
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<< <i>People were trying to upgrade the 20th Anniversary Gold 69DCAMS to get 70DCAMS by the hundreds ! >>
Are there many obviously over graded 70DCAMs? >>
Last time I looked the 2006-W First Strike 20th Anniversary Gold PCGS PR70DCAM was a $8000.00 coin >>
Last time I looked an MS65 Red 1914-D Lincoln was at $30K and it wasn't a FS. So what?
Prove that the FS label adds long-term value.
Collector of Early 20th Century U.S. Coinage.
ANA Member R-3147111
~ Artist
>>>My Collection
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<< <i>People were trying to upgrade the 20th Anniversary Gold 69DCAMS to get 70DCAMS by the hundreds ! >>
Are there many obviously over graded 70DCAMs? >>
Last time I looked the 2006-W First Strike 20th Anniversary Gold PCGS PR70DCAM was a $8000.00 coin and the non-First Strike was quite lower >>
They've come down since then. This one did not sell at $7,000 OBO.
<< <i>Tell ya what Zoins. Research the First Strikes and the Non First Strikes. Save the data. In 10 years do the same, and compare your data >>
I'm not arguing FS has no value. The paper and registry set points definitely have value, at least for 70s. I've looked at many FS69s where there was no premium for the FS. Just don't crack out your coin
<< <i>If I saw this slab at an auction 15 years from now I would be very interested because I would know that it was slabbed in the first 30 days of release. And it hasnt been sent in multiple times for grading. The desire wont be from the so-called First Strike, but from knowing it was only slabbed once in the first 30 days.
Why would anyone send an MS70 coin in for regrade?
FirstStrike 70 or Non-FS 70 will not be resubmitted for any reason, ever. So it boils down to the vaule perceived or otherwise in the FS label. >>
Actually, an MS69 First Strike™ can be submitted for regrade and still retain the First Strike™ label. Heck, even an MS68 can because once the coins designation has been establish, it doesn't have to re-qualify for that designation.
That Platinum coin could very well have been submitted multiple times until it did get an MS70 label provided the owner felt that it was an appripriate MS70 candidate and was worth the resubmission effort.
When PCGS was NOT giving out MS70 grades for the SIlver Eagles and then REVERSED that decision earlier this year, many folks sent in their MS69 First Strike™ 2006-W to try and get the MS70 grade. I'm certain that PCGS was bombarded with MS69 regrades!
My take on the whole scenario is that the First Strike™ Slab is just another variant on labels much the same as the 20th Anniversary Labels which is why I purchase them.
The 2006-W Proof coin in the 20th Anniversary "set" only gets the label if it is submitted as an "as sealed and shipped from the mint" set. The proof itself is no different than any other 2006-W SAE Proof. The same holds true with the 2006-W Uncirculated SAE. Same coin as sold individually by the mint, different label, higher value. Why? Because people just collect them. That, in and of itself, is what causes the "collectible value" to rise above the "intrinsic value". The same holds true for an MS70 or PR70. Same coin, different grading "opinion", higher value.
I fully understand that there is no way that any of the coins could actually be true First Strikes unless they are 70's. Those could possibly be true First Strike coins. As an old timer, I never heard the term First Strike until PCGS came up with it in 2005. However, just because the term wasn't used, doesn't mean that the condition didn't exist. Specifically speaking, Deep Cameo proofs prior to the 70's I believe were a result of being the first coins off of a new die or die set. At least, thats my take on it.
PCGS is very clear on the label designation on this page and offers links to that page on the actual First Strike™ labels. Its up to the consumer to review that page before making any assumptions on what they are purchasing or investing their money into.
For the OP, this US Mint web page states:
<< <i>The United States Mint has received inquiries from consumers regarding use of the term "first strike." The term has appeared in connection with the advertising and grading of 2005 and 2006 silver, gold, and platinum proof and bullion American Eagle Coins, and the new 2006 24-karat proof and bullion American Buffalo Gold Coins. Currently, there is no widely-accepted and standardized numismatic industry definition of "first strike." Coin dealers and grading services may use this term in varying ways. Some base its use on dates appearing on United States Mint product packaging or packing slips, or on the dates of product releases or ceremonial coin strike events. Consumers should carefully review the following information along with each dealer’s or grading service’s definition of "first strike" when considering a purchase of coins with this designation. >>
Nowhere does it say that the practice is illegal and will be shut down.
Perhaps the Director you spoke to should review the US Mints own policies and Consumer Alert's before stating that the Federal Government will be shutting anything down.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Actually, an MS69 First Strike™ can be submitted for regrade and still retain the First Strike™ label. Heck, even an MS68 can because once the coins designation has been establish, it doesn't have to re-qualify for that designation. >>
Good point. So there's no guarantee it hasn't been resubmitted after all.
<< <i>Same coin as sold individually by the mint, different label, higher value. Why? Because people just collect them. That, in and of itself, is what causes the "collectible value" to rise above the "intrinsic value". The same holds true for an MS70 or PR70. Same coin, different grading "opinion", higher value. >>
I agree. Why does any coin have a collector premium over face or bullion value? Because of collector preferences.
<< <i>I never heard the term First Strike until PCGS came up with it in 2005. However, just because the term wasn't used, doesn't mean that the condition didn't exist. >>
PCGS had a different definition on their lingo page for a very long time...
<< <i>Prove that the FS label adds long-term value. >>
Well first, since the FS program started in 2005 it would be impossible to show long term value but you knew that before you posed your stupid statement.
NSDR - Life Member
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<< <i>FS = First Shipped, nothing more or less. >>
I disagree.
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<< <i>FS = First Shipped, nothing more or less. >>
I disagree. >>
OK. I am listening....
First Strike (TM)
Beginning in 2004, PCGS began designating coins delivered by the U.S. Mint in the 30 day period following the initial sales date of a new product as "First Strike". For instance, new American Silver Eagles typically go on sale each January 1st, thus any coins delivered between January 1 and January 31 qualify for the First Strike (TM) designation.
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SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
the truth,........believe the myth".
Camelot
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
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<< <i>If I saw this slab at an auction 15 years from now I would be very interested because I would know that it was slabbed in the first 30 days of release. And it hasnt been sent in multiple times for grading. The desire wont be from the so-called First Strike, but from knowing it was only slabbed once in the first 30 days.
Why would anyone send an MS70 coin in for regrade?
FirstStrike 70 or Non-FS 70 will not be resubmitted for any reason, ever. So it boils down to the vaule perceived or otherwise in the FS label. >>
Actually, an MS69 First Strike™ can be submitted for regrade and still retain the First Strike™ label. Heck, even an MS68 can because once the coins designation has been establish, it doesn't have to re-qualify for that designation.
That Platinum coin could very well have been submitted multiple times until it did get an MS70 label provided the owner felt that it was an appripriate MS70 candidate and was worth the resubmission effort.
When PCGS was NOT giving out MS70 grades for the SIlver Eagles and then REVERSED that decision earlier this year, many folks sent in their MS69 First Strike™ 2006-W to try and get the MS70 grade. I'm certain that PCGS was bombarded with MS69 regrades!
My take on the whole scenario is that the First Strike™ Slab is just another variant on labels much the same as the 20th Anniversary Labels which is why I purchase them.
The 2006-W Proof coin in the 20th Anniversary "set" only gets the label if it is submitted as an "as sealed and shipped from the mint" set. The proof itself is no different than any other 2006-W SAE Proof. The same holds true with the 2006-W Uncirculated SAE. Same coin as sold individually by the mint, different label, higher value. Why? Because people just collect them. That, in and of itself, is what causes the "collectible value" to rise above the "intrinsic value". The same holds true for an MS70 or PR70. Same coin, different grading "opinion", higher value.
I fully understand that there is no way that any of the coins could actually be true First Strikes unless they are 70's. Those could possibly be true First Strike coins. As an old timer, I never heard the term First Strike until PCGS came up with it in 2005. However, just because the term wasn't used, doesn't mean that the condition didn't exist. Specifically speaking, Deep Cameo proofs prior to the 70's I believe were a result of being the first coins off of a new die or die set. At least, thats my take on it.
PCGS is very clear on the label designation on this page and offers links to that page on the actual First Strike™ labels. Its up to the consumer to review that page before making any assumptions on what they are purchasing or investing their money into.
For the OP, this US Mint web page states:
<< <i>The United States Mint has received inquiries from consumers regarding use of the term "first strike." The term has appeared in connection with the advertising and grading of 2005 and 2006 silver, gold, and platinum proof and bullion American Eagle Coins, and the new 2006 24-karat proof and bullion American Buffalo Gold Coins. Currently, there is no widely-accepted and standardized numismatic industry definition of "first strike." Coin dealers and grading services may use this term in varying ways. Some base its use on dates appearing on United States Mint product packaging or packing slips, or on the dates of product releases or ceremonial coin strike events. Consumers should carefully review the following information along with each dealer’s or grading service’s definition of "first strike" when considering a purchase of coins with this designation. >>
Nowhere does it say that the practice is illegal and will be shut down.
Perhaps the Director you spoke to should review the US Mints own policies and Consumer Alert's before stating that the Federal Government will be shutting anything down. >>
Ok tell me then, if someone high up in the Mint tells me that there is legal action being taken against grading companies for this issue where might a collector find this!!
Furthermore "First Strike" being used by any grading company is a money chase, I read comments on here and elsewhere the policy is that you must submit your coins between Period A and Period B to get the label?
If I have a unopened box dated during or before the end of some grading companies time limit on a special label, I can see why this director had this conversation with me. It does seem a Myth. It doesn't make sense other than making more money off of the customer that is not up to date with knowledge in the hobby. Thats a shame.
I have numerous MS/Pr coins modern age that are Perfect in the 70 grade, but why would my coin be less valued if it doesn't have the First Strike label on it? This hurts the hobby people don't you agree. Yaha
Dennis
Looking for PCGS AU58 Washington's, 32-63.
Box of 20
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
It is a myth to think that a coin that grades 69 or lower could not be a first strike.
1. who says/verifies all dies are perfect when first placed in service?
2. After being minted "first" any number of things could happen to a coin to keep it from being a 70.
3. Feel free to add to the list.....
First struck coins are not a myth...as long as you were there when they were struck and have real documentation. Someone with the 1794 SP66 dollar feels it is first struck. Only problem is that no one from 1794 is still alive today to comment on it.
roadrunner
In coins produced for circulation, there are “early strike” pieces. These are the first coins struck by new dies before the dies begin to show wear and loose detail.
Wondercoin
concept as something worthy of "intellectual property."
But, it was certainly marketing genius.
roadrunner
<< <i>Ok tell me then, if someone high up in the Mint tells me that there is legal action being taken against grading companies for this issue where might a collector find this!! >>
On the US Mints Web Site. Read the Hot Item just before the First Strike item. You'll see where the US Mint actually calls the selling of NORFED Liberty Dollars as Legal Tender is against the law. Time and time again the US Mint has stated that certain practices are against Federal Law but in the case of using the term First Strike, they did not.
<< <i>Furthermore "First Strike" being used by any grading company is a money chase, I read comments on here and elsewhere the policy is that you must submit your coins between Period A and Period B to get the label? >>
Yes, First Strike is a money chase but the TPG's aren't the one's making the money. They only get an additional $10 per label. The real money chase is in the collectors that pay premium's for First Strike™ Slabs.
<< <i>If I have a unopened box dated during or before the end of some grading companies time limit on a special label, I can see why this director had this conversation with me. It does seem a Myth. It doesn't make sense other than making more money off of the customer that is not up to date with knowledge in the hobby. Thats a shame. >>
Folks can collect what they want and pay whatever premium they want and there is no shame in it. However, if someone were investing in First Strike coinage with the specific intent of making longterm gains on that coinage, then yes that would be a shame. But it would be no different than making an investment in some stock offering where the investor did not do his/her investigation on that offering to find out if it is a viable investment. Please do not confuse collecting with investing as many do. If you or anybody else is collecting coins as a long term investment with guaranteed profits then you are not a collector but an investor that should be finding out exactly what you are investing in instead of taking someone's word on its value.
<< <i>I have numerous MS/Pr coins modern age that are Perfect in the 70 grade, but why would my coin be less valued if it doesn't have the First Strike label on it? This hurts the hobby people don't you agree. Yaha >>
No. The only thing that hurts the hobby are folks who do not take the time to learn about the hobby and about what they are collecting. I'm sure that your MS/Pr coins are perfect 70's for you but they would not bring perfect 70 money unless they were in perfect 70 slabs. Even then, there will be negotiable differences in what one perfect 70 slab brings against another perfect 70 slab.
If folks are going to collect First Strike™ slabs and pay premiums for those slabs, they had better get a clear definition of what that slab label means and what value it has to them as a collector before paying big premiums on them. If not, then they will certainly be disappointed.
The name is LEE!