"Problem" Coins

gecko109

When one looks at the greysheet bid/ask on a given coin, that price reflects a properly graded, original coin. In other words, one that would grade out at PCGS/NGC. My question is, how does a person evaluate and come to a price value of a problem coin? Im painfully aware that there are alot of variables starting with the type of problem, and from there, the varying degree of that particular problem. Does anyone have any "personal rules" to follow when negotiating a deal for a problem coin? Many of you will correctly advise me to just stay away from them altogether, but thats not the answer im looking for. Basically I just want a quick/dirty way of determining the dollar value of problem coins. Thanks.

MrSpud

Problem Coin = melt, unless it is a cool variety or is really rare

gecko109

<< <i>Problem Coin = melt, unless it is a cool variety or is really rare >>



So this coin is worth $5.04? It is not really rare, or a "cool variety" whatever that means.

MrSpud

Maybe a bit more for that one, because to me it is rare enough for a premium even if damaged. If it was a Morgan it would be worth melt though.

gecko109

What about an 1854 half cent that was dipped and retoned? Melt value? Your answer applies to a tiny fraction of coins rather than to what im refering to. I wouldnt waste my time asking what a cleaned, scratched 1962 roosevelt dime was worth. Anybody else want to chime in on this topic?

MrSpud

I guess what I am trying to say is, unless a coin is not available other than damaged (like if it is a very rare coin or a hard to find variety) a problem coin isn't worth buying for your personal collection.

astrorat

It really depends on the severity of the problem. I know that's not a very insightful answer, but a "rule of thumb" is a bit difficult when encompassing all problem coins. One way to help learn this is to view ANACS net graded coins (those in the small white holders with NET grades, not DETAILS grades). ANACS did a reasonably good job at "netting" the problem coin to its appropriate "grade." But keep in mind, that what ANACS was doing was pricing the coin. So for example, a "cleaned" EF coin may be net graded to a VF-20 which means that in ANACS opinion the cleaned EF would sell for a "no problem" VF-20 price. ANACS no longer does this but instead lists the technical grade with the appropriate problem noted on the holder.

I would suggest that you try and view as many problem coins as possible to get a feel for how they are priced. Try your local B&M dealer and have them show you known problem coins and then use their pricing to get a gauge on how they are discounted from problem-free coins.

Recently I have added a little over 100 problem coins for review when I teach the ANA Fundamentals grading course. They are very useful for the students to see what is deemed a problem coin and how they are net graded.

Lane

gecko109

<< <i>I guess what I am trying to say is, unless a coin is not available other than damaged (like if it is a very rare coin or a hard to find variety) a problem coin isn't worth buying for your personal collection. >>




Im not trying to debate with you, or pick on you, but if you read my OP, you would see that im looking for answers other than "dont buy them". Also, there are plenty of nice draped bust halves in PCGS plastic in VG-F condition at VERY affordable prices. However, is the coin that I used as an example, worth $200? $100? $350? Thats the whole point of my thread. There are alot of decent looking "problem coins" on the market, and no standardized way to place a proper value on them. Lets say I have a monthly coin budget of $100 as an example. And lets also say I like accumulating alot of different coins for my collection. Waiting to buy that DBH in a PCGS F12 would set me back about 4-5 months in my budget. Buying the coin pictured (which to me looks rather nice) might only set me back 2 months. So again, does anyone have a decent method to determine the "value" of a coin like the one pictured above?

gecko109

<< <i>It really depends on the severity of the problem. I know that's not a very insightful answer, but a "rule of thumb" is a bit difficult when encompassing all problem coins. One way to help learn this is to view ANACS net graded coins (those in the small white holders with NET grades, not DETAILS grades). ANACS did a reasonably good job at "netting" the problem coin to its appropriate "grade." But keep in mind, that what ANACS was doing was pricing the coin. So for example, a "cleaned" EF coin may be net graded to a VF-20 which means that in ANACS opinion the cleaned EF would sell for a "no problem" VF-20 price. ANACS no longer does this but instead lists the technical grade with the appropriate problem noted on the holder.

I would suggest that you try and view as many problem coins as possible to get a feel for how they are priced. Try your local B&M dealer and have them show you known problem coins and then use their pricing to get a gauge on how they are discounted from problem-free coins.

Recently I have added a little over 100 problem coins for review when I teach the ANA Fundamentals grading course. They are very useful for the students to see what is deemed a problem coin and how they are net graded.

Lane >>



That is a perfect reply to my question!!! I'd like to hear other people's ideas/opinions on how you go about negotiating prices for problem coins.

astrorat

I'll buy all ANACS net-graded (or details graded) problem coins for melt...except gold (out of my budget!). They are great educational tools.

I do get your point, Mr. Spud, problem coins should be avoided unless they are "needed" (for a set or education).

Lane

gecko109

On a side note, a forum member suggested that the above pictured coin would be worth around $75. I'd like input from all members as to whether that is about right, if it would be worth more, or if it would be worth less.

Baley

I'll take a shot at your question, gecko

Generally, the weight of the damage on the value is is proportional to the extent of the damage and the resulting overall eye appeal.

Your little scratched graffito, on the reverse and fairly well hidden on an otherwise nice coin, might cost an average of a grade and a half in an auction venue like eBay, so if it would be a Fine worth $300 without them, it might bring between a good and very good price, a G6 might bring $225 or so. If the mark were on the obverse on her face or in the fields, that would hurt the price more, on average, but the market varies depending on the collector, some won't buy problems at any price, other don't mind them as much

Net grading can be tricky and selling problem coins, even keys, is harder than selling problem free coins. However, early and rare coins and seekers of the tougher years and varieties sometimes have to settle for netting out various problems.

here's a draped bust half I have which has a lot of detail but must be net graded



maybe VF details, but some scratches on both sides. For comparison, here 's a VG. Which coin would you prefer?





Some collectors would prefer the detail and the damage, others would prefer the wear and the freedom of scratches.

To me they're worth roughly the same.

gecko109

Thanks for your 2 cents Baley. Im assuming its safe to say you think the pictured coin is worth more than $75, correct? Anyone else care to answer my original question, or at least guess the pictured (1806) coin's value, above, at, or below $75?

moosesr

I agree with what you said that there are a lot of variables starting with the type of problem. But, I wonder if most problem coins could be restored by some procedure similar to carrying the coin in your pocket just like might have been done during normal circulation.

rbf

Tough question. The general "rule of thumb" for problem coins is to deduct one full grade point, i.e. a damaged EF45 is worth VF30 money. But as other posters have mentioned, problem coins fall under a very wide range, just as wide as the grade itself. The aforementioned rule of thumb generally applies to "average" damage that is noticeable but not too bad, such as light cleaning, scratch, minor rim nick/bruise, etc. It's all about the eye-appeal. If the damage is really minor and not in a prime focal area of the coin, then that coin should lose no more than 1/2 a grade point in its value. Sometimes these minor problems are overlooked altogether and you can get full market value for the grade. But in the case of badly damaged coins (culls), the whole grading system pretty much gets thrown out the window... most culls sell for less than the Good price, regardless of the numerical grade.

gecko, in the case of your coin, which has moderate but relatively minor damage in my opinion, I would say the fair market value should be about one grade point lower than it's technical grade.

JRocco

<< <i>Problem Coin = melt, unless it is a cool variety or is really rare >>



Hey Mr Spud....you are a smart guy but you totally dropped the pooch on this one.

jdillane

The 1806, aside from the damage, which I agree is moderate, has nice surfaces. That the damage is on the reverse is a plus. That it is in the center, is a minus. As far as whether it is worth more or less than $75, I would pay $75 without hesitation. Don't know that I would go over $200. It may well fetch that or more on the bay.

When it comes to early american coins, I think that minor to moderate problems have a place in the market. I have plenty myself that I enjoy. Heck I have a few coins with holes that I am fond of, including a 1798 DBHE dollar with a big, gaping hole. I think it gives a rare opportunity to see inside a coin.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>Maybe a bit more for that one, because to me it is rare enough for a premium even if damaged. If it was a Morgan it would be worth melt though. >>



I just sold roughly 10 counting wheel damaged BU 1885-S Morgans for over $100 a piece. That's way over melt, and BU 1885-S aren't rare.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>When one looks at the greysheet bid/ask on a given coin, that price reflects a properly graded, original coin. >>



greysheet prices aren't necessarily for strictly "original" coins. It's just for market acceptable raw pieces and coins in TPG holders.

But back on topic... the value of a problem coin changes from problem to problem. Understandily, a staple sratch will detract less value than a whiz. Heritage has a ton of ANACS graded problem coins in their auction archives, and they should help give you a great idea of what problem coins are worth for specific series and issues.

lkenefic

I think everyone's "rule of thumb" is a bit different. While I agree that the degree of "problem" will dictate the amount of net-grading (and thus the price), I also think that the individual making the purchase is a huge factor as well. I've seen some simply spectacular coins on this forum and obviously some people have deeper pockets than others. That's just one factor. Also, the adage "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" comes into play. I've seen quite a number of ANACS net-graded coppers that got dinged 10-15 points for an old cleaning that have since retoned which I'd be hard-pressed to detect without seeing the coin under a 30x stereomicroscope. If you're on a budget and the coin is priced favorably, I'd pull the trigger... especially if the coin is a rarer variety. The "problem" is another factor. I've seen "dings" that ran the gammut from barely perceptible to gouges... "cleaned" meaning everything from lightly cleaned 100 years ago to cleaned yesterday with a wire brush... "corroded" meaning been in the ground for 100 years to been in an oak roll-top desk for 60. My 1909-S IHC falls into this last category. I know the history of this piece and it was plucked from circulation some 50-60 years ago and kept in an oak desk the entire time. Unfortunately, the tanins and varnish in the oak put a dark patina on the surfaces. ANACS graded it AU50 details and netted it down to VF35... I ended up paying just over Fine money for it and have been offered more since so I'm happy. However, that being said... on down the line, I'll probably end up selling it and try for a no-problems XF

sinin1

My rule of thumb is the coin is worth 25-50% of what it would be worth without the damage

of course I have no great desire to buy problem coins since there are so many non-problem coins available


so depending on the coin, that may be melt value or much more


your coin shown (I am assuming it is a half, although if you told me it was a dime, I would not know)
doesn't look totally bad to me - cleaned on the reverse and that teepee grafitti

it probably is worth somewhere near $100

so $75 if you are buying and $125 if you are selling

PS, not sure what graysheet says, but doesn't matter does it?

Russ

Details grade - damage = net grade = value. The problem is that opinions will vary on how much a coin is netted down. One might see a specific problem as netting a coin down to nothing, while another might be more generous in their assessment.

Russ, NCNE

MrSpud

<< <i><< Problem Coin = melt, unless it is a cool variety or is really rare >> >>




<< <i>Hey Mr Spud....you are a smart guy but you totally dropped the pooch on this one. >>



Probably, especially since the Original Poster said he didn't want to hear from people who were going to say to just avoid them. I try to avoid problem coins and would rather have a problem free one that is a lower grade for the same price as a higher grade problem coin. Unless you pick up the problem coins for melt, you will have trouble selling a group of problem coins quickly except for a loss if you ever try and upgrade your set, but you can usually sell lower grade problem-free coins quicker and use the money towards the upgrade. That's been my experience at least.

rhedden

a forum member suggested that the above pictured coin would be worth around $75.


Sounds like a person who is hoping to buy it from you cheap. I say it goes for close to $175-200 if you put it on ebay. You quite simply can't buy anything in this series for $75 unless it's horribly mutilated.

shorecoll

You mentioned negotiating, depends on who you're negotiating with. There is an entire subclass of dealer on eBay and B&M who exist by selling problem coins as close to "list" as possible, then overgrade, they're not likely to take much off. If you are trying to pay someone what they're worth it's subjective based on eye appeal (to you). I say minor problems, 1 full grade level, major problems it's totally up to you. I've seen corroded coppers with XF details, net G4, 5 or 6. Offering this, however, will pi$$ some people off.

RedTiger

Problem coins are deeply discounted when selling to dealers. When selling to collectors, it depends on the collector. There are a large group of collectors that don't want them at any price.

The market price at auction is determined by the two highest bidders. Search the various auction archives at Ebay, Teletrade, Heritage to get an idea for specific series, specific problems. Many dealer will only bids about 50% of the auction prices, if an offer is made at all. Keep this in mind if you plan to sell the collection to a dealer. With collectors, the luck of the draw and the timing of an auction will often bring widely different prices for the exact same coin.

The rule of thumb is that problem coins are easy to buy, tough to sell. Only a subset of dealers and collectors are at all interested at competitive prices (within 20% of the auction prices realized). Buy them if you like them, but understand that they are harder to move.

UtahCoin

I do tend to pay a bit more for 1893 S Morgan Dollars with a hole than I do for 1921 Morgan dollars with a hole....

gecko109

Lets take the 1806 DBH that I posted a picture of as an example. How much would that particular coin be worth?

MrSpud

A similar 1806 with worse scratches went for $182.45 on e-bay recently (see item 280181887270)
A more circulated 1806 that was holed and plugged went for $113.86 (see item 180190853556)
But then a replica 1806 from China fetched $49.00 (see item 140189560513)
And this replica 1806 went for $133.00 (See 140188857182)