<< <i>WHY WOULD ANYONE ASSUME that if a player isn't on the list that they are clean? It means either they are clean or simply they didn't get caught this time around! >>
That's true sagard...when I referred to Griffey Jr and Thomas, I was just saying that Im happy that they were not on the report, not that they definately didnt take steroids. Just keeps a bit of faith alive.
I know you are a big supporter of Bonds but these guys COULD be a glimmer of light in a very dark room.
<< <i>WHY WOULD ANYONE ASSUME that if a player isn't on the list that they are clean? It means either they are clean or simply they didn't get caught this time around! >>
That's true sagard...when I referred to Griffey Jr and Thomas, I was just saying that Im happy that they were not on the report, not that they definately didnt take steroids. Just keeps a bit of faith alive.
I know you are a big supporter of Bonds but these guys COULD be a glimmer of light in a very dark room. >>
exactley, better to not be listed than to be listed, no?
<< <i>exactley, better to not be listed than to be listed, no? >>
Better for an individual sure. Not better for the game and this generation of players if MLB pretends that this group of players is the extent of the problem. As for Bonds I have felt he is/was the best player in the game and that he has had little to any competitive advange over his peers. Over previous generations of players, he has enjoyed along with many others big time advantages not limited to steroid/HGH/etc...
Everyone here should read Jose Canseco's book along with Game of Shadows. Jose comes across as far more believable than anything I've heard from either MLB or the MLBPA.
My favorite player growing up was Kirby Puckett. I don't like him any less because he had some dramatic body changes during his career.
<< WHY WOULD ANYONE ASSUME that if a player isn't on the list that they are clean? It means either they are clean or simply they didn't get caught this time around! >>
I think what this would prove is that the players who did not get fingered had IQs that were bigger than their biceps. It is going to be interesting to watch all the apologists change their tune about who deserves asterisks/HOF etc. The fact is, nobody will ever know who took what and for how long. And nobody can determine precisely what impact any of this had on their numbers so either we exclude the entire era from the record books or you can't exclude anybody. If Gwynn got in the HOF and the rumors about him are true, do we strip the guy of his HOF status? I would think absolutely not.
Mark B.
Seeking primarily PSA graded pre-war "type" cards
My PSA Registry Sets
34 Goudey, 75 Topps Mini, Hall of Fame Complete Set, 1985 Topps Tiffany, Hall of Fame Players Complete Set
<< <i>...do we strip the guy of his HOF status? I would think absolutely not... >>
The Hall of Fame is 100% meaningless to me, I don't really care who is in and who is out. If MLB came out and banned people from MLB for their use it would be the indication that they were serious about stopping the issue. The only thing these people respect is money. Take that away and future coaching gigs and people will notice. No way Selig has the stones.
<< <i>Neifi Perez? Really, Neifi Perez? YOU WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THEY MIGHT HAVE HELPED WHEN HE WAS WITH MY GIANTS!!!! >>
Lots of former Dodgers on the list. Gagne was a no-brainer. 'Roids sure didn't help Valdez, Mota (I remember the fight he got into with Piazza - it musta been 'roid rage; no way he tangles with Piazza if he's in his right mind) or Offerman.
Milton Bradley Eric Gagne Nomar Garciaparra Raul Mondesi Guillermo Mota Jose Offerman Gary Sheffield Ismael Valdez
Clearly darkhorse wasn't "maliciously smearing someones reputation falsly." Yes, the list has now proven false and probably should be edited to show what we know now, but I don't think he's on the FBI's most wanted list or anything.
he clearly states where he got the list so i don't think he should edit it. it will be a good reference for the future (in case this false list gets buried)
edited to add... maybe he should just add the word FALSE to the title though?
White Whales: 1996 Select Certified Mirror Gold Ozzie Smith 2006 Bowman Chrome Orange Refractor Chris Carpenter
<< <i>maliciously smearing someones reputation falsly is a crime in many states >>
Get a life, man. This a baseball card message board. Your idolatry towards Pujols approaches creepy. Do you have any semen samples from him for your personal collection, too?
<< <i>he clearly states where he got the list so i don't think he should edit it. it will be a good reference for the future (in case this false list gets buried)
edited to add... maybe he should just add the word FALSE to the title though? >>
Yeah, and when we compile the final list, maybe add it to the bottom of the OP.
Yeah, after listening to sports radio for the last 3 hours and hearing no mention of Pujols, I was pretty sure I'd come back to find out he wasn't really named in the report. I really glad for him and his fans (myself included)... nice to know a guy really can put up monster numbers without juicing!
btw... cdnuts, can you change your profile pic back to that crazy karate kid dude? I really miss seeing that cheesy smile
Jim G All-time favorite athletes: Steve Sax, Steve Garvey, Larry Bird, Jerry Rice, Joe Montana, Andre Agassi, Karch Kiraly, Wayne Gretzky, Ichiro Suzuki, Andres Galarraga, Greg Maddux. "Make the world a better place... punch both A-Rods in the face (Alex Rodriguez and Andy Roddick)!"
Well, I'm saddened to see that one player I collect is on the list--or maybe I should be happy that only one player I collect is on the list.
I'll still keep collecting his cards anyway--maybe I can get them for a cheaper price now.
I collect Vintage Cards, Commemorative Sets, and way too many vintage and modern player collections in Baseball (180 players), Football (175 players), and Basketball (87 players). Also have a Dallas Cowboy team collection.
<< <i>Yeah, after listening to sports radio for the last 3 hours and hearing no mention of Pujols, I was pretty sure I'd come back to find out he wasn't really named in the report. I really glad for him and his fans (myself included)... nice to know a guy really can put up monster numbers without juicing!
btw... cdnuts, can you change your profile pic back to that crazy karate kid dude? I really miss seeing that cheesy smile >>
So, you're 100% convinced that if players are not on this report, they're clean?
<< <i>I look at the list and see names that edged Frank Thomas out on All-Star appearances and MVPs...I wish that weren't the case. >>
Giambi's 2000 MVP should be yanked and it should go to #2 (i.e., thomas). >>
This would depend on a) the percentatage of Giambi's output that is directly attributable to steroids, and b) the percentile margin between he and Thomas in the voting.
You guys all know, of course that "The Bagwell Conspiracy" was a piece written by someone for amusement?
This was talked about a while back and was totally NOT true at all.
Your real clue on that (ATTENTION: "HOOPSTER") should have been that TONY GWYNN was on the steroid list.
Come on folks, do you really believe GWYNN did roids? YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING!
I don't think anyone ever worked harder WITHOUT THE ROIDS than Gwynn did, studying films, hitting thousands of baseballs day after day after day, including the off season.
COME ON FOLKS, get a grip. Let's wait for the real report, please!
As I said in another thread, no Bagwell nor Biggio means good times
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
<< <i>I look at the list and see names that edged Frank Thomas out on All-Star appearances and MVPs...I wish that weren't the case. >>
Giambi's 2000 MVP should be yanked and it should go to #2 (i.e., thomas). >>
This would depend on a) the percentatage of Giambi's output that is directly attributable to steroids, and b) the percentile margin between he and Thomas in the voting. >>
haha!! This from a philosophy teacher?
I won't get to the problems logic here (too busy at work), but I don't think it is the kind of information you can know. In any case, Giambi is an ADMITTED cheater and should have his MVP yanked. Period. Or at least be given an "*."
<< <i>I look at the list and see names that edged Frank Thomas out on All-Star appearances and MVPs...I wish that weren't the case. >>
Giambi's 2000 MVP should be yanked and it should go to #2 (i.e., thomas). >>
This would depend on a) the percentatage of Giambi's output that is directly attributable to steroids, and b) the percentile margin between he and Thomas in the voting. >>
haha!! This from a philosophy teacher?
I won't get to the problems logic here (too busy at work), but I don't think it is the kind of information you can know. In any case, Giambi is an ADMITTED cheater and should have his MVP yanked. Period. Or at least be given an "*." >>
Logic lessons from a doctor who believes there's a big man in the sky who's watching over all of us. Needless to say, I wll be awaiting your tutorial in logical frameworks with bated breath.
My biggest problem with the names mentioned is that some are going by a clubhouse boy's/drug dealer's word alone. There are guys there with a paper trail and deserve to be mentioned. Anyone where the proof wasnt there never should have been named. I think it was irresponsible to name names just for the sake of naming them.
Comments
Steve
Jim Rice and Goose Gossage are looking more and more deserving of the HOF every day.
<< <i>WHY WOULD ANYONE ASSUME that if a player isn't on the list that they are clean? It means either they are clean or simply they didn't get caught this time around! >>
That's true sagard...when I referred to Griffey Jr and Thomas, I was just saying that Im happy that they were not on the report, not that they definately didnt take steroids. Just keeps a bit of faith alive.
I know you are a big supporter of Bonds but these guys COULD be a glimmer of light in a very dark room.
<< <i>
<< <i>WHY WOULD ANYONE ASSUME that if a player isn't on the list that they are clean? It means either they are clean or simply they didn't get caught this time around! >>
That's true sagard...when I referred to Griffey Jr and Thomas, I was just saying that Im happy that they were not on the report, not that they definately didnt take steroids. Just keeps a bit of faith alive.
I know you are a big supporter of Bonds but these guys COULD be a glimmer of light in a very dark room. >>
exactley, better to not be listed than to be listed, no?
http://sportsfansnews.com/author/andy-fischer/
<< <i>exactley, better to not be listed than to be listed, no? >>
Better for an individual sure. Not better for the game and this generation of players if MLB pretends that this group of players is the extent of the problem. As for Bonds I have felt he is/was the best player in the game and that he has had little to any competitive advange over his peers. Over previous generations of players, he has enjoyed along with many others big time advantages not limited to steroid/HGH/etc...
Everyone here should read Jose Canseco's book along with Game of Shadows. Jose comes across as far more believable than anything I've heard from either MLB or the MLBPA.
My favorite player growing up was Kirby Puckett. I don't like him any less because he had some dramatic body changes during his career.
I think what this would prove is that the players who did not get fingered had IQs that were bigger than their biceps. It is going to be interesting to watch all the apologists change their tune about who deserves asterisks/HOF etc. The fact is, nobody will ever know who took what and for how long. And nobody can determine precisely what impact any of this had on their numbers so either we exclude the entire era from the record books or you can't exclude anybody. If Gwynn got in the HOF and the rumors about him are true, do we strip the guy of his HOF status? I would think absolutely not.
Seeking primarily PSA graded pre-war "type" cards
My PSA Registry Sets
34 Goudey, 75 Topps Mini, Hall of Fame Complete Set, 1985 Topps Tiffany, Hall of Fame Players Complete Set
<< <i>...do we strip the guy of his HOF status? I would think absolutely not... >>
The Hall of Fame is 100% meaningless to me, I don't really care who is in and who is out. If MLB came out and banned people from MLB for their use it would be the indication that they were serious about stopping the issue. The only thing these people respect is money. Take that away and future coaching gigs and people will notice. No way Selig has the stones.
Shane
<< <i>Pujols is NOT on the official list. I'm back!
Are there any shades of gray in your world Shane?
Congrats though, I am happy for you.
<< <i>Neifi Perez? Really, Neifi Perez? YOU WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THEY MIGHT HAVE HELPED WHEN HE WAS WITH MY GIANTS!!!! >>
Lots of former Dodgers on the list. Gagne was a no-brainer. 'Roids sure didn't help Valdez, Mota (I remember the fight he got into with Piazza - it musta been 'roid rage; no way he tangles with Piazza if he's in his right mind) or Offerman.
Milton Bradley
Eric Gagne
Nomar Garciaparra
Raul Mondesi
Guillermo Mota
Jose Offerman
Gary Sheffield
Ismael Valdez
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
<< <i>I look at the list and see names that edged Frank Thomas out on All-Star appearances and MVPs...I wish that weren't the case. >>
Giambi's 2000 MVP should be yanked and it should go to #2 (i.e., thomas).
Keep your collection organized on iTaggit
can we get a TRUE list???????
<< <i>
<< <i>Pujols is NOT on the official list. I'm back!
Are there any shades of gray in your world Shane?
Congrats though, I am happy for you. >>
Nope, just red!
Shane
the board game, figure that
What problem?
Keep your collection organized on iTaggit
edited to add... maybe he should just add the word FALSE to the title though?
1996 Select Certified Mirror Gold Ozzie Smith
2006 Bowman Chrome Orange Refractor Chris Carpenter
<< <i>maliciously smearing someones reputation falsly is a crime in many states >>
Get a life, man. This a baseball card message board. Your idolatry towards Pujols approaches creepy. Do you have any semen samples from him for your personal collection, too?
<< <i>he clearly states where he got the list so i don't think he should edit it. it will be a good reference for the future (in case this false list gets buried)
edited to add... maybe he should just add the word FALSE to the title though? >>
Yeah, and when we compile the final list, maybe add it to the bottom of the OP.
Crisis averted.
Keep your collection organized on iTaggit
btw... cdnuts, can you change your profile pic back to that crazy karate kid dude? I really miss seeing that cheesy smile
All-time favorite athletes:
Steve Sax, Steve Garvey, Larry Bird, Jerry Rice, Joe Montana, Andre Agassi, Karch Kiraly, Wayne Gretzky, Ichiro Suzuki, Andres Galarraga, Greg Maddux.
"Make the world a better place... punch both A-Rods in the face (Alex Rodriguez and Andy Roddick)!"
I'll still keep collecting his cards anyway--maybe I can get them for a cheaper price now.
<< <i>Yeah, after listening to sports radio for the last 3 hours and hearing no mention of Pujols, I was pretty sure I'd come back to find out he wasn't really named in the report. I really glad for him and his fans (myself included)... nice to know a guy really can put up monster numbers without juicing!
btw... cdnuts, can you change your profile pic back to that crazy karate kid dude? I really miss seeing that cheesy smile
So, you're 100% convinced that if players are not on this report, they're clean?
<< <i>
<< <i>I look at the list and see names that edged Frank Thomas out on All-Star appearances and MVPs...I wish that weren't the case. >>
Giambi's 2000 MVP should be yanked and it should go to #2 (i.e., thomas). >>
This would depend on a) the percentatage of Giambi's output that is directly attributable to steroids, and b) the percentile margin between he and Thomas in the voting.
This was talked about a while back and was totally NOT true at all.
Your real clue on that (ATTENTION: "HOOPSTER") should have been that TONY GWYNN was on the steroid list.
Come on folks, do you really believe GWYNN did roids? YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING!
I don't think anyone ever worked harder WITHOUT THE ROIDS than Gwynn did, studying films, hitting
thousands of baseballs day after day after day, including the off season.
COME ON FOLKS, get a grip. Let's wait for the real report, please!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I look at the list and see names that edged Frank Thomas out on All-Star appearances and MVPs...I wish that weren't the case. >>
Giambi's 2000 MVP should be yanked and it should go to #2 (i.e., thomas). >>
This would depend on a) the percentatage of Giambi's output that is directly attributable to steroids, and b) the percentile margin between he and Thomas in the voting. >>
haha!! This from a philosophy teacher?
I won't get to the problems logic here (too busy at work), but I don't think it is the kind of information you can know. In any case, Giambi is an ADMITTED cheater and should have his MVP yanked. Period. Or at least be given an "*."
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I look at the list and see names that edged Frank Thomas out on All-Star appearances and MVPs...I wish that weren't the case. >>
Giambi's 2000 MVP should be yanked and it should go to #2 (i.e., thomas). >>
This would depend on a) the percentatage of Giambi's output that is directly attributable to steroids, and b) the percentile margin between he and Thomas in the voting. >>
haha!! This from a philosophy teacher?
I won't get to the problems logic here (too busy at work), but I don't think it is the kind of information you can know. In any case, Giambi is an ADMITTED cheater and should have his MVP yanked. Period. Or at least be given an "*." >>
Logic lessons from a doctor who believes there's a big man in the sky who's watching over all of us. Needless to say, I wll be awaiting your tutorial in logical frameworks with bated breath.
if youithink he would risk his reputation over a few misplaced names, you are too naive for your own good....
if Mitchell put names in that report, it was because he was 150% sure they took the drugs....
i guarantee there will NOT BE ONE PLAYER TO SUCCESSFULLY DEFEND HIS INNOCENCE....
this is a done deal...Mitchell was the prosecuting lawyer, the Jury and the Judge....and he has earned that right!
<< <i>this is Mitchell we are taking about here folks....one of the most successful and respected Politicians in the WORLD.....
if youithink he would risk his reputation over a few misplaced names, you are too naive for your own good....
if Mitchell put names in that report, it was because he was 150% sure they took the drugs....
i guarantee there will NOT BE ONE PLAYER TO SUCCESSFULLY DEFEND HIS INNOCENCE....
this is a done deal...Mitchell was the prosecuting lawyer, the Jury and the Judge....and he has earned that right! >>
I agree mitchell has a great reputation from what any of us have heard.
http://sportsfansnews.com/author/andy-fischer/
<< <i>Where's Luis Gonzalez?
Steve >>
http://sportsfansnews.com/author/andy-fischer/