Comitia Americana experts—do you agree that the Vienna Set of medals is attributed to Marie Antoinet
Longacre
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I have been reading John Adams’ Comitia Americana book and it is spectacular. It is generating a lot of questions in my head. The historical aspect of these medals is amazing.
In one part of the book, Adams discusses the various known sets of the medals in existence. For the “Vienna Set” of the medals, Adams notes that this set contains several medals in silver, and specifically writes,
“The museum’s cabinet contains nearly a complete set of Comitia Americana medals, lacking only the relatively common William Washington. Most remarkably, eight of the ten pieces are in silver … . The silver medals are the finest seen, having been struck from polished dies and given multiple blows to bring up the detail in the design.
The Vienna set is as impressive as it is mysterious. Dr. Winter reports that the medals were acquired one or two at a time, rather than coming directly from the Hapsburgs or some other aristocratic family. …It is conceivable that the Austrian ambassador to France in 1790 was a numismatist and that his heirs later released the medals to [the museum] piece by piece. Alternatively, the medals were a gift of the state, one of the first of the 350 sets specified by Jefferson and the Congress.
Neither theory is at all satisfying. …The ambassador theory does not readily explain the presence of any silver medals at all. If Jefferson saw fit to requisition his set and Madison’s set in tin, who would have had the authority to command the production of single specimens in a metal hard enough to risk the dies? If a better explanation does not surface, we are inclined to attribute the set to Marie Antoinette. Only she or King Louis XVI would have had the power to cause this specially prepared set to have been made. Only she … would have been forced to break up the set in order to deliver the medals out of the country. As wild as this theory may seem, it has the advantage of fitting all of the presently known facts.”
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For the Comitia Americana experts in the house:
(1) Is the Marie Antoinette/Louis XVI theory well accepted?
(2) Is this the first time that this theory has been put in print?
(3) What other historical records may be reviewed in order to confirm this theory?
(4) Although the theory seems logical, do any of the other experts here have a different theory?
In one part of the book, Adams discusses the various known sets of the medals in existence. For the “Vienna Set” of the medals, Adams notes that this set contains several medals in silver, and specifically writes,
“The museum’s cabinet contains nearly a complete set of Comitia Americana medals, lacking only the relatively common William Washington. Most remarkably, eight of the ten pieces are in silver … . The silver medals are the finest seen, having been struck from polished dies and given multiple blows to bring up the detail in the design.
The Vienna set is as impressive as it is mysterious. Dr. Winter reports that the medals were acquired one or two at a time, rather than coming directly from the Hapsburgs or some other aristocratic family. …It is conceivable that the Austrian ambassador to France in 1790 was a numismatist and that his heirs later released the medals to [the museum] piece by piece. Alternatively, the medals were a gift of the state, one of the first of the 350 sets specified by Jefferson and the Congress.
Neither theory is at all satisfying. …The ambassador theory does not readily explain the presence of any silver medals at all. If Jefferson saw fit to requisition his set and Madison’s set in tin, who would have had the authority to command the production of single specimens in a metal hard enough to risk the dies? If a better explanation does not surface, we are inclined to attribute the set to Marie Antoinette. Only she or King Louis XVI would have had the power to cause this specially prepared set to have been made. Only she … would have been forced to break up the set in order to deliver the medals out of the country. As wild as this theory may seem, it has the advantage of fitting all of the presently known facts.”
***********
For the Comitia Americana experts in the house:
(1) Is the Marie Antoinette/Louis XVI theory well accepted?
(2) Is this the first time that this theory has been put in print?
(3) What other historical records may be reviewed in order to confirm this theory?
(4) Although the theory seems logical, do any of the other experts here have a different theory?
Always took candy from strangers
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
0
Comments
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
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Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
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<< <i>I believe the Franklin papers clearly state that he personally presented the gold Libertas pieces to the king & queen, so the "gift of state" idea is not far-fetched. Hopefully Pistareen will check in and further enlighten us
I am also hoping that Pistareen comments on this. I suppose I can drop an email to Mr. Adams, too. But let's see what Mr. Pistareen has to say first.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>Longacre - Interesting post and interesting questions. However, you missed the most relevant question. If Marie Antoinette were alive today, would she buy the Platinum Anniversary Eagles? >>
Hey! We are trying to have a serious discussion here
Edited to add - Longacre, the Kunsthistoriches Museum Comitia collection was virtually unknown before Adams/Bentley located it during their survey. So, there is really no previous scholarship on it to compare - these authors basically got first shot, now it's up to anyone else to offer an alternative theory.
I disagree with the Marie Antoinette theory, despite the fact that John Adams and Anne Bentley are two of my favorite humans on the planet.
Marie Antionette received a GOLD (yes G-O-L-D) Libertas Americana medal. If her medals survived intact, where would the Crown Jewel of all American medals go? They'd save the silver ones and not the gold one? I doubt it.
Jefferson made it clear at the time that he intended to give sets out to ambassadors and to universities, that they could be used as teaching tools. Of course, Jefferson often promised something and then never followed up, or got busy with something else, or just plain decided not to later. There is very little paper trail on how these things were distributed, aside from the presentation letters to actual medals awardees (Anthony Wayne, William Washington, etc.).
While Marie Antionette would be a "sexy" provenance, the likelihood is that the Vienna pieces once belonged to someone less famous today but more relevant then -- a friend of TJs, or a numismatist of the era, etc. When no evidence for a provenance exist, awarding one post-mortem to the most famous possible candidate isn't really helpful. Otherwise in 30 years all patterns would be ex. Wayne Gretsky.
The real answer: we don't know whose they were. And we may never know. In history, some mysteries never get solved. So it goes.
PS -- the Vienna stuff was first discovered (to my knowledge) by Dr. Dick Doty of the Smithsonian. I remember being in his office when he came back from there and he was like a little kid, practically whooping and hollering at some of the cool stuff they have. My favorite: a MINT STATE 1794 half dollar in COPPER!!! How does that get there?
Maybe it was Marie Antionette's
Betts medals, colonial coins, US Mint medals, foreign coins found in early America, and other numismatic Americana
The theory of Queen Marie having special pieces struck to send to Vienna is entirely believeable. She was still keeping the lines of communication open with her brother, Francis II in Vienna.
There is probably more documentation to be uncovered (there always is) regarding these medals in Europe.
edited to add - the two gold LA medals were melted within hours of the storming of the Bastille. The LA medals were never authorized by Congress, only by Franklin.
The rioters I know tend to take what they can and skedaddle.
While the gold medal may have been melted, and the silver ones could have been Marie Antionette's, a little evidence might help convince me. Just a little. You are correct about the Vienna connection, but she was not the only human with a connection to Austria who might have had an interest in American medals at the time.
Betts medals, colonial coins, US Mint medals, foreign coins found in early America, and other numismatic Americana
In the library with the candlestick.
I'll do some re-checking and see if I can find the citation. From what I recall, all gold was collected (rather hastily) and melted to take away the King's wealth. I don't remember anything about any silver sharing the same fate during the French Revolution.
<< <i>edited to add - the two gold LA medals were melted within hours of the storming of the Bastille. >>
I don't think we can state this as fact. It is certainly possible, but we don't even know for sure that the royal family still possessed these when they were "embastilles" (the French verb for imprisoning someone in the Bastille).
The source for this citation is found in the American Philosophical Society magazine (I hope this attribution to APS is correct) "Past and Present", No. 146, February 1995 pgs., 66-102 issued by Oxford University Press which states "Medals and Coins made from the molten remains of Royal Medallions, were struck within days".
I found this passage while reading about Dupre's imprisonment for 6 months, when he fell out of favor with the King. This was around the same time as the first French National Convention, held on September 21, 1792. At the convention, it was presented there was a need to eliminate the symbols of monarchy from the popular imagination of the people. They adopted a new seal for the Republic to replace the image of the King. The motto was "Archives de la Republic Francaise".
One or the other can be true, but not both. Frankly, I have not seen sufficient evidence to think either is true. That's the historical method -- proving things with a proper paper trail. Even a citation to another un-cited reference doesn't do the trick. Breen was fond of that.
History is a tricky business. For the vast majority of precise questions about history, whether numismatic or not, the only correct answer is "we don't know" -- even if circumstantial cases built from suppositions and repeated facts from others makes for a much better story. Fiction is about telling a good story. History is about being correct and proveably so. All of us who hold ourselves up to be "experts" need to stick to that very strict standard.
Sorry for the undiplomatic post, but the ol' academic in me got a little torqued for moment
Betts medals, colonial coins, US Mint medals, foreign coins found in early America, and other numismatic Americana
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
My logic appears circular only if you believe that I said the Vienna medals were Marie A's, which I didn't say. It was only agreeing with a theory that they were possibly sent before the Revolution began. Neither did I say that the Royal Medals were melted within days. That was from a citation that was written by someone else in a 1995 magazine article regarding of taking away the French King's wealth. Kindly read what is written, not as a separate interpretation.
I also said that I wasn't aware of anything about the silver medals being melted, only that I had read a citation about the medals being melted, which, if I recall correctly, doesn't differentiate between gold or silver.
I'm not trying to add to the confusion, just trying to expand the envelope about the background knowledge of these interesting pieces. If I will need a disclaimer for what I do say, then so be it.
Sorry for the seeming contradictions, but if I didn't say anything about what I have found in my research, then we would still have the same ol' stories with the same narrow focus.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
However, the gold Libertas Americana medals were included in this thread and I wanted to share some previously unknown information. The trouble was that it was mis-interpreted, just like my attributing the obverse design for the LA medal to Joseph Wright in my "Henry Voigt" book. If anyone is interested, the response to that can be found in last week's E-Sylum.
What I have found in my research does not amount to "unsupported guesswork" as was implicated in the review. Just as I didn't say the things JK said I did in this thread.
The article that was mentioned in the thread has to do with the history of the Liberty Cap and Pole, which is a symbolic reference to the Phrygians who were freed slaves in the ancient roman empire.
The article was written by J. David Harden, who has little or no background in numismatics. Sort of like reading an economic history where the author doesn't even know what money was circulating in the country (let alone the different specie or legal tender status of what was actually in circulation). It is however a useful read in trying to establish how the pole and cap appeared on the 1782/3 LA medals. To my knowledge, this particular resource "Past and Present" magazine, which labels itself "widely acknowledged to be the livliest and most stimulating historical journal in the English-speaking world" had not been checked previously. The citation mentioned about the Medallions being melted was in the first papragraph.
Mention is made of Dupre and Franklin in the lengthy article. However, as with most texts (yes, the Voigt book included), there needs to be better evidence presented (if it's available) to back up the claims.
In the case of Harden, he states " We know that Franklin and Dupre became friends after meeting coincidentally during their morning walks along the quays of the Seine". This reminds me of the George Washington stopping by the U S Mint during his morning walks to work passages. The trouble is, that Franklin lived 5 km's away in Passy, and at the time the designs were being reviewed in September or October 1782, he didn't have time to go all the way to Paris each morning and stroll along the river. He was deeply involved with the peace negotiations. Besides, the Franklin papers do not contain any correspondence dealing directly with Dupre about the LA medals. As pointed out in John Adams new "Comitia Americana" book, no contract was located for Dupre (probably because there never was one).
The Adams work is the first to mention Alexandre Theodore Brongniart and his involvement with the LA medals. This was offered to Adams and Bentley by Ellen Cohn the editor of the Franklin papers. Again, this is a case where important information comes from a source outside of the mainstream of American numismatics. There is still so much we need to find out.
My research into this area was based on a desire to learn about the reality and truth behind the LA medals, which I believe are among the most significant American numismatic items ever created.
In going beyond the scope of numismatic writings, I found the Liberty Cap and Pole theme was used in England of all places, prior to the Revolutionary War. In 1763 John Wilkes, a member of Parliament was ousted and arrested. That same year he was depicted in caricature seated on a chair with a pole and rounded cap with the word LIBERTY written across the center.
Wilkes became the Lord Mayor of London in 1774 and was a friend and ally to Patience Wright during her protest against King George III. Patience had copied Wilkes protest by using a pole and cap in her 1777 sketch "The Personification of Liberty". which read "Liberty I am, and Liberty is Wright; and Slavery do I disdain with all my Might".
Joseph Wright was there in London and was witness to this; and it's my belief that he provided the design for the obverse seen on the LA medal. Unless someone can provide evidence that Dupre was the actual designer of the obverse, then what is presented for the first time about Joseph Wright in the Voigt book, should be a positive addition to the numismatic pool of knowledge; rather than being condemned as it has been.
That is my take on this particular issue. I won't try and belabor anything that anyone else wants to add, nor will I condemn or mis-interpret what they say. This forum is a useful exchange of opinions and ideas, as well as presenting information - both new and old. Let us put aside personal agendas and continue the search for numismatic knowledge.
Thanks so much for clarifying that.
The citation from the 1995 Harden article in "Past and Present" about the melting of the medallions comes from the book "Marianne into Battle: Republican Imagery and Symbolism in France 1789-1880" by French historian Maurice Agulhon.
Be sure to get the 1981 Cambridge University Press version, which is translated into English from the original French text.
Let me chime in here.
I don't know if I agree with Adams Bentley.
What I do know is that I will be the first to put together proof of the real answer to the mystery, thereby beating Pistareen to the punch in a throw-down I am declaring with him today.
How's your German, Pistareen?