Four MS 1852-C Half Eagles Walk in Florida Shop's Door

CharlotteDude

I imagine it was quite a moment when an UI gentleman walked into Gulfcoast Coin & Jewelry in Fort Meyers with not one, but FOUR mint state 1852-C Half Eagles.... The '52-C is one of the more available C-mint HEs, but it's not a common coin by any means. To have four of them walk into your door makes for an exceptional find. NGC has since graded them... two at MS-63 & two at MS-64. The 63's are $20K+ coins.... the 64's even more. The finest from either service is a lone MS-65 at NGC. An article on the coins is on the most recent Coinworld, front page. Sad part is, the owner had received two offers from separate UI buyers at $200 a piece... fortunate for him, he new he had something special... cool little background on how he inherited them from his mother, who inherited them from her father... an ex-midwest bank president.

What a find!

C'dude

RYK

Great story! (except the part about being offered $200/each )

Louis

STONE

Now that's cool.

Certainly makes for an exciting day in the coin shop.

jdimmick

Thankfully,

He had sense enough to not take the first offer, and did some checking. So many people take the first offer and sell. I am fighting this locally going up against a long time established dealer who has been around since 1981 in the area, who pays little to nothing for good coins.
such as 100.00 for a Xf 09-s VDB
stil paying 5x face for 90%

gold american eagles at 30-40% behind spot
you get the idea!

I am spending a lot of dough on advertising and paying fair and getting the word out, but it is so tough to compete against a long time location. Those who are in the know, learn after a few visits to sell, but many who inherit or have no idea, dont know and think all dealers pay the same>>>>



jim

jdimmick

This apparently happens all the time, as I just read Lane Brunners comment about the newly discovered 1817/4 Half and saw where he commented that the lady was offerd 100.00 for it. Doesnt suprise me? with what I see at other local shops.

IMO, I feel this sort of thing happens mostly at local B & M shops and smaller localized dealers than by the national firms?? I think most National dealers have more intergrity than some of the sleeze ball shop operators.

CharlotteDude

Jdimmick,

Too bad you can't set up shop right beside him... at least you'd keep him honest.

C'dude

JRocco

Really puts a bad light on dealers as a whole.
Kind of like the board member here who bragged a few years back about a little old lady not realizing what she had in her proof sets and our board member bragging about "The Rip" at the old lady's expense.

LindeDad

<< <i>Sad part is, the owner had received two offers from separate UI buyers at $200 a piece... >>

Now when the items in question are worth over $20,000 each, would this not be considered Grand Theft and jail time crime?
Wonder when some Distict Attorney somewhere is going to set up a sting for this kind of dealer conduct.

savoyspecial

>>Wonder when some Distict Attorney somewhere is going to set up a sting for this kind of dealer conduct>>


i'm in no way defending "low ball" offering dealers but it's not illegal.....unethical, yes; illegal, no

greg

MrEureka

i'm in no way defending "low ball" offering dealers but it's not illegal.....unethical, yes; illegal, no

I'm not convinced it's always legal.

savoyspecial

please give an example Andy......the only scenerio i can imagine is if there were a YN involved.......only persons 18 years of age and older can legally enter into binding contracts

greg

MrEureka

If the dealer offered $5 apiece for the Charlotte half eagles, I'd argue that there's a clear criminal intent to defraud. Even at $200, I'd argue the same if it can be proved that the dealer knew the real value. For example, if Jim Halperin looked at the coins and offered $200 apiece, I'd expect him to land in jail. (Sorry, Jim. Just an example. )

GoldenEyeNumismatics

I can provide no particulars, but I'm pretty sure I've heard of lawsuits where people who've been ripped off by dealers had sued them and won considerable sums of money.

savoyspecial

>> For example, if Jim Halperin looked at the coins and offered $200 apiece, I'd expect him to land in jail. (Sorry, Jim. Just an example. )>>


again, i'm clearly playing devils advocate here and i dont want to seem on the 'side' of the scummy (in this example) dealer, but am i understanding you correctly that the low OFFER itself would be criminal and that no transaction would have to take place??

if so, this seems like a huge liability on dealers everywhere......at what point does a 'good purchase' become criminal?? i feel that in this HOBBY (and make no mistake that's what it is) we are in we must arm ourselves with knowledge and a lack of knowledge is sometimes costly......carried out to its logical conclusion, are you advocating we be regulated something like an exchange commission for coins??

just Sunday conversation

respectfully
greg

MrEureka

Based on 3 minutes of research, it looks like I'm wrong. This is a case of civil, not criminal fraud. Still, damages can be recovered.

sneaky

"It's only worth what someone will pay for it."

Here in my state I don't think you would have a case against them for selling them for $200. As long as both parties agree to the terms, it wouldn't be illegal. That doesn't mean some attorney might not attempt to try, but I don't think it would fly. But law is set with precedent, so it very well could end up a case some day and change the system.

Like another said, immoral, yes, but illegal? I don't believe so.

Mike C

SilverBaron

Ever try selling stamps ...even to a knowlegable person? ..... How about antiques?..... I had 5 "coin silver" mugs from the 1850's that I took to a BIG antique show one time....Several silver tableware dealers...some big...some small....The BEST offer I had on them was 60% of 90% of spot...and this was even after 1 guy said that they were all original....Put them on the bay...got 70X spot (+/-)...yes... Seventy Times Spot.

SOME dealers are bad.... even the biggest of them....BUTTTTT some are very GOOD.... Point being... I would NOT want the government deciding what is and is not a "Fair" buy / sell price.

LindeDad

I think a good lawyer would be able to make a case for fraud or theft if a dealer professing to be a an expert in coins and there values. Said a coin was only worth 1% of it true value in the hopes of making a profit of 99% on the trade of one item.
I will add that there are a lot of retires in this area and I sure hope the dealers out here are not playing those kind of games.
And as mentioned it is a boring snowy Sunday morning so I wanted to throw this log on the fire to see what others thought.

ricko

Not being a lawyer, I think the best case for a lawsuit would be if one had the 'lowball' offer in writing... although I do not believe the shysters would commit themselves in writing. A dealer is expected to know values - or at least have reference material handy to determine said values. A written offer commits him... and then if it is determined to be one tenth of actual commercial value, grounds may exist. That being said, if the transaction did NOT take place, I do not think a case would go anywhere. Cheers, RickO

TwoSides2aCoin

The idea is to make money silently, over time.... It ain't fraud if a collector buys low, but if a dealer does... watchout for the noose

SilverBaron

2S2AC....Exactly.....Everyone wants their dealer to pay THEM top $$$....at the same time, always giving them a "deal" when they buy.

I hate to see "old ladies" ripped as well....buttttt..... how many here would like to see the government set the % spread?

Nysoto

If the dealer is an ANA or PNG member, somewhere in the "code of ethics" there is a section about fair payments when buying coins. We all know dealers strictly adhere to these "code of ethics", so there could be a basis for a civil lawsuit (I am not an attorney, but have played one in school plays). A dealer is assumed to have knowledge of fair coin prices and may advertise this for customers, but I don't think this would have any bearing in dealer to dealer transactions, or a collector who cherries a variety from a dealer who is satisfied with the price paid.

CaptHenway

<< <i>Really puts a bad light on dealers as a whole.
Kind of like the board member here who bragged a few years back about a little old lady not realizing what she had in her proof sets and our board member bragging about "The Rip" at the old lady's expense. >>



No, it puts a bad light on the sleazeballs who set up in hotel rooms.
Don't badmouth all dealers because of it.
You mention the board member who ripped off a little old lady. Does that put a bad light on you, a fellow board member?

roadrunner

Charlotte gold often looks like corroded crud. How many times have you seen local shops purchase UNC coins for VF to XF money, because they often look like that. If not for the fact that luster remains on those UNC coins, they often do look well circulated to the unknowledgeable. Not standing up for the sleezes that buy this stuff for nothing, but there are often reasons. A friend of mine picked up a rare early CC for AU money and got a 63 on it. That was after a number of other dealers all passed on the coin.

roadrunner

JRocco

<< <i>

<< <i>Really puts a bad light on dealers as a whole.
Kind of like the board member here who bragged a few years back about a little old lady not realizing what she had in her proof sets and our board member bragging about "The Rip" at the old lady's expense. >>



No, it puts a bad light on the sleazeballs who set up in hotel rooms.
Don't badmouth all dealers because of it.
You mention the board member who ripped off a little old lady. Does that put a bad light on you, a fellow board member? >>



Point taken.
Let me add that it was 2 honest dealers that helped me as a young collector and
their advice is with me to this day.
There are many good/honest dealers that shouldn't be painted by the sleaze brush.

BlindedByEgo

The bulk of dealers are decent people, but a few bad apples... Well, you know.

Cool story on the C gold, though.