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Toned Matte Proof Lincolns

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  • Ran outta room there sorry,


    My final thought, Are all the very pretty proof Indians questionable? I have seen these in some of the most outrageous color schemes imaginable. Also alot of the crazy color ones are in PCGS holders.




    If NGC put a cleaned, enhanced, doctored coin in a STAR 66 holder, and its the only star for the entire matte lincoln series, what does that say for the rest of the stars outhere?

    silently shaking my head in amazement...
  • TomBTomB Posts: 21,433 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Let me address a few items you have brought up in your posts. First, NGC and PCGS holders are not airtight! They allow the transfer of gases through the plastic and there is no attempt made to remove the ambient air when the coin is slabbed. Therefore, a coin within a slab may still tone, depending on the environment in which the slabbed coin is stored, but it will likely tone at a slow rate, if at all. Intercept Shield holders, in my opinion, can greatly minimize the possibility of toning once a coin is slabbed and if you are concerned about this possibilty you may want to invest in such holders. Additionally, there is no reason to believe that any matte proof Lincoln has significant residual sulfur on the coin from a storage envelope. If that were true, the coin would be black. Any physical contaminants that remain on a coin may certainly contribute to further toning, however, but it is unlikely that you will have a coin slabbed that has major surface coatings applied to it. The sonic sealing system is not toning the coins.

    I believe NGC has been made aware of your newly purchased 1914 PF66* coin during the summer of 2006 explosion regarding AT copper. They likely believe the coin is market acceptable, which is a term one will often find in the industry. Both PCGS and NGC have many suspect copper, silver, nickel and gold coinage in their holders, in my opinion, but the common mantra appears to be that the "look" of the coins is market acceptable. NGC and PCGS may also have differing standards in their view on not only the grade of a coin, but on the acceptable level of manipulation of a coin. Also, since the graders at PCGS and NGC are simply human, there is a level of inconsistency that is to be expected between and within the services. This means that what PCGS or NGC find to be market acceptable might not be the case at the other service. Obviously, this also means that the grade level assigned to a coin from one service might not match the grade level assigned by the other service.

    If you think that NGC and PCGS will not certify an altered coin then you have never considered what dipping does to a coin. All dipped coins are altered and many obviously dipped coins are in PCGS and NGC holders. The key here is that most of the hobby-industry views dipping with acceptance and, hence, they are market acceptable coins.

    You may want to read a little of my website, I have been known to have a little bit of a background in science and toning.image
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • Ahooka454,

    Welcome to the Forum. I enjoy collecting and studying MPLs and MPBs (buffaloes) as well. With all due respect, I would heed the warnings posted here by some of the foremost collectors in the MPL series. In my mind there is no doubt the coin is the coin posted ATS (NGC forum) in which a nationally known coin dealer held an experiment with that exact coin and posted the results for all to see and discuss.

    Speaking for myself, I would not want a coin that was part of someone elses experiment. I would not want a coin that was the cause of so much controversy, anger and outrage.

    The seller claims the coin wasn't dipped, cleaned, etc. and has a return policy. The seller is either mistaken, ignorant or unwilling to admit to himself and to you that the coin may have been dipped at one time and as a result, its orignal skin stripped. Therefore, I would return it to the seller for a refund, fully expecting that you may get a neg or neutral for your first feedback, and move on from this relatively inexpensive lesson learned.

    I appreciate the passion you have for coins. I would honestly hate to see it extinguished as a consequence of one dealers foolishness and another dealers ignorance.

    All coins come in due time. To be a happy and succesful collector in this hobby one needs only to educate him or herself to the best of their ability, use some modicum of common sense and financial self-awareness/restraint and also demonstrate some degree of patience.

    All coins come in due time.

    Best wishes for a happy ending.
    Jeff.K. Karp

    Meet my first little guy, Benjamin. Born 4/8/2007
    Pic taken at 2.5 years of age.
    image
  • hey Tom,
    Lots of very useful info in your post.
    I am aware of the phrase market acceptable, but I thought as a rule of thumb among honest dealers and sealers is to atleast inform the would be buyer any (as you so rightfully said MANIPULATION) on a coin for sale.
    I thought that sonicly sealing them kept out further contamination, atleast to a degree. I agrre with you that once they are sealed in the holders whatever was on them is still on them. If NGC thought of it as beinging acceptable to the market but also their holder without a label saying CLEANED, and finally giving it the only star for the series, then what makes it not ok for me?. i cant say what I am going to do yet, I need it in hand first. It would be nice to have the only star matte proof though.

    Also Tom since you obviously have a great deal of knowledge on the subject of tonig, what are your thoughts on a GSA Ike with the type of toning seen on the prf Indians? I dont have pics yet but they are wild. The top three said in Baltimore they were not tampered with or removed, and they are wowzers. Have you seen any thing like what I descibe?

    Thanks again for all the help and advice....
  • Hey karpman,
    Thanks for all the info. This will definetly NOT throw me from my passion for coins. I dont think anything could. Also I think you are right about the not wanting someone elses experiment. This is a very odd thing from what I am normally experiancing in the hobby. I get the not wanting to talk or sell anything dealers. They too are not enough to get me outta here. I think the only thing that could is if I ever lost intrest. I dont see that happening anytime soon.
    Any and all advice is awsome as always.
    Always ready to talk coins with fellow coin hounds...

    thanks again




    Also makes me glad to know I got a real gem in a 63 holder for 63 price... its a knock out in person.


    Take alook at my registry set and let me know what you think, i only have 1 photo so far but am waiting for a 1913pcgs pr65rb from a known, respected, honest, dealer this week sometime. Will have a pic of that too.


    hey karpman quick thought, any chance someone knows the coin dealer who did this? would like his input as well...
  • TomBTomB Posts: 21,433 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'd like to clarify one thing by telling you that I know a lot about science, but who the heck really knows how wise I am about toning.

    I believe you are taking the terms "cleaned" or "cleaning" to a level that neither NGC nor PCGS takes them. What I am writing is that both NGC and PCGS generally use these terms to indicate coins that show physical evidence via moved metal of a cleaning. That is, they use the terms to indicate those coins that show massive or inappropriate hairlines caused by an abrassive. Many coins have debris, haze or other unwanted surface characteristics removed from them in order to make them appear more lustrous, cleaner or simply prettier when they are graded by NGC or PCGS. Most folks realize this and many practice this strategy. After all, a grader might only see your coin for a few seconds, so if you can make the coin stand out as something special it might be worth a point or two on its grade. At least that might be a prevailing theory.

    The 1914 you purchased is, indeed, the Childs coin if I remember correctly. The coin likely was not cleaned, according to the industry accepted definition, but it was altered after being purchased out of auction. This was a calculated risk by the person who worked on the coin. The upside to them was likely a coin that had the type of color that matte proof Lincoln collectors are looking for and have shown they are willing to pay for while the downside risk would be making the coin appear horrific and perhaps losing a point or two on regrade. On balance, if candidates are chosen properly, I would expect this to be an area where one might make some money. The key points here, in my opinion, are that PCGS and NGC seem to slab these coins without prejudice and that the market has at least some collectors who will pay a premium for this look and other looks that might be produced.

    As for NGC, they would likely act in a similar manner to how I would expect PCGS to act in a hypothetical, similar instance in that they would examine the coin and might come to the conclusion that there would have been no way for them to know that the coin was manipulated prior to certification if not for the image evidence from the Heritage auction. Therefore, they might determine that the coin is market acceptable.

    The GSA Ike you have written about would have me concerned, but without seeing the coin I truly could not tell you anything other than that small opinion.
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • As you requested, excerpted from a previous post:


    << <i>That coin was discussed [here] This Thread on the NGC Forums.

    The images are no longer there -- perhaps codhock has them and can repost them.

    To make a long story short, Greg Margulies ("gmarguli" on the NGC boards) purchased the coin from Hertiage -- it was fugly toned and and in a NGC PF65RB holder. The coin was then "conserved" in MS-70, which stripped the fugly toning and left the blue/pink toning, and then graded PF66*RB at NGC. As you can see by the length of the thread, using MS70 on proof Indian Cents and MPL Lincolns provided for quite a debate with mulitple threads going on both the NGC and PCGS boards about a year ago. >>


    "Greg Margulies ("gmarguli" on the NGC boards)"

    Click on the link above and read deep into the thread. I remember this thread quite well. Much of it has been edited to "disappear".

    Good luck and keep us posted. image
    Jeff.K. Karp

    Meet my first little guy, Benjamin. Born 4/8/2007
    Pic taken at 2.5 years of age.
    image
  • TomBTomB Posts: 21,433 ✭✭✭✭✭
    An interesting thing about the NGC boards is that after a few days one loses the ability to edit their posts. Therefore, the images can still be removed via changing the URL, but the text will remain unless edited rather quickly.
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • Hey guys wow such a vast wealth of knowledge and experiance speaks foritself here.
    I have read the debate on the ngc threads and am still torn now more so than before.
    I dont honestly have a position on this now with the info i am getting here and else where. if the coin graders didnt see it as detremental or even worth a closer look, i really need the coin in hand, if it didnt hurt the coin, which is easy enough to see with copper and it damage it then why worry about it.
    hey remember the more info the better so dont be shy.
    100 years ago collectors couldnt have imagined this would be where we are at with open forums and mass info sharing. what a drastic diff. that must be...
  • TomBTomB Posts: 21,433 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The decision to put the responsibility for the desirability of a coin in the hands of a grader can be quite comforting. However, an alternative view might be to wonder at just how stable the newly formed color on this coin will be over time. Will it darken, spot, fade or change to another color? I honestly could not tell you.
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • ah another wise point to consider. If the photos are any indication then i know the entire obverse is electric blue and the rev is almost a desert type red blue camoflauge. If any thing i could see the rev as a blue as the front or a reddish.Who knows but the photos look awsome. if it gets here and is amazing maybe ill keep it but ?


    all i can say is with this much info and help i dont think one could go wrong with fellow collectors like all of you guys helping me... thanks


  • << <i>Hey guys wow such a vast wealth of knowledge and experiance speaks foritself here.
    I have read the debate on the ngc threads and am still torn now more so than before.
    I dont honestly have a position on this now with the info i am getting here and else where. if the coin graders didnt see it as detremental or even worth a closer look, i really need the coin in hand, if it didnt hurt the coin, which is easy enough to see with copper and it damage it then why worry about it.
    hey remember the more info the better so dont be shy.
    100 years ago collectors couldnt have imagined this would be where we are at with open forums and mass info sharing. what a drastic diff. that must be... >>



    When you put your faith and hard earned money in the third party graders instead of in yourself or in one of the handful of trustworthy national dealers and/or numismatic experts who post regularly on both forums, that's your choice.

    I have my share of regrets in both coins (NGC and PCGS certified only) and currency (CGA sucks big-time) from when I started throwing down big money back in '99.

    Except for the CGA graded currency, all of my mistakes were very subtle and involved purchasing some low end "tweeners" for the assigned grade. I learned my lesson but it took a couple of years. I don't make those mistakes anymore. I read and read and read and study and study and study as much as possible. I've learned who to trust and who to avoid. I've enjoyed every single coin purchase I've made in the last 3-4 years without regret. I trust myself, and a short list of others. That's it. Search the forums to seek out those in the "circle of trust".

    Some say buy the coin not the holder. The real truth or mantra to follow is buy the book first, then check the auction archives for price history, then research the seller, and then and only then consider buying the coin.

    That's all the wisdom I have left on this subject and I wish you the best. I'm out.

    Jeff.K. Karp

    Meet my first little guy, Benjamin. Born 4/8/2007
    Pic taken at 2.5 years of age.
    image
  • lasvegasteddylasvegasteddy Posts: 10,408 ✭✭✭
    the one thing i see here ahooka is you have pcgs registry in mind...some pro's have pointed out chances of you crossing that matty are not favorable
    reguardless of ngc's position on that coin..,
    pcgs has it's own position on coins and if you are to build a pcgs registry set you are chatting with the pro's here.
    i'm on the sidelines as i'm a meek lil beginner myself
    take a poll here if you'd like on what the top pcgs matty people have to say...or moreso in the open forum as a poll consensus

    everything in life is but merely on loan to us by our appreciation....lose your appreciation and see


  • very smart teddy. thats a good idea i dont know how to begain a poll though. is there a set way to do that here?
    and you are correct sir, i do wish to add to my registry set. i have one now called the Baja matte proof collection. its #27 right now...by no means am i going for #1, just want to see what its all about.
    main reason i jumped on a 66*br was the price, i saw that and said duh... now i look back and say der der der...



    one thing i am going to ponder is if the whatever was done to this star 1914, and it did not hurt it or damage the surface like abrasive cleaning, why is it bad?



  • lasvegasteddylasvegasteddy Posts: 10,408 ✭✭✭
    just go to us coin forum and start a new post with a topic of...1914 matte proof linc will it cross?
    you'll get a feel from those who know pcgs coins
    if you'd like i'll post it for you???
    everything in life is but merely on loan to us by our appreciation....lose your appreciation and see


  • awsome teddy sure if ya dont mind, im still new to this forum stuff. very cool to have this now with the amount of stuff outthere.
    to get such a large fast response from people who know the coin is simply mind boggling.
  • as to the registry, you know i thought at first id go with just the pcgs set, but they limit the coins to just pcgs. atleast with ngc you can combine and have both. we will see...
  • lasvegasteddylasvegasteddy Posts: 10,408 ✭✭✭
    hey ahooka,
    if you now look on the message board "us coins" you'll see my post and replys it receives
    everything in life is but merely on loan to us by our appreciation....lose your appreciation and see


  • yea thanks teddy
    quick replys too
    very cool to hear others thoughts on the subject.
    i figured out how to make one. check out fair market value?
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,284 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>No doubt this will be an unpopular opinion on this thread, but I believe many of the wonderfully colored matte proof Lincolns we see populating the registry sets are altered coins. I write this because I cannot recall seeing coins with the same color schemes several years ago, at a time when the matte proof Lincoln niche was not as popular as today. Over the course of the last few years these pieces have popped up with alarming frequency, again in my opinion only, and they appear to have popped up in new holders. The absence of old holders for these coins indicates to me the possibility, which is consistent with my anecdotal observations, that these coins are being manufactured with this color today.

    Please understand that I truly adore matte proof Lincolns and have owned a number of terrific examples. However, I have attempted to purchase coins with a noticable skin or patina, perhaps even going so far as to buy coins with retained and carbonized crud on them, and have generally walked away from pieces that look to have brand-spanking-new surfaces with questionable, in my opinion, color patterns. I am afraid that I must write that many newer collectors of this niche are more likely to fall in love with coins that might not have appeared ten years ago as they appear today. It might be the case that a beautiful TruView image and some astonishing color schemes will entice folks to buy something that I would hope to avoid.

    As for your new 1914 matte proof Lincoln, well, I believe it is indeed very new. You are entering a minefield, good luck. >>




    Hey Tom,

    You know I value your opinion, probably more than most everyone in the hobby, but I feel I must make an exception to some of your points.

    1. No doubt there are altered coins in this series, just are there are in any series, but there are probably far fewer just for the simple fact that there are fewer specimens extant.

    2. I, personally, am responsible for many of the colorful toned MPLs that have been pictured here on these boards. I have a great passion for these coins and with the help of a few dealers we searched high and low across this nation for the finest toned coins. Massive premiums were offered for these coins to bring them out of collections. The reasons why these coins are now in new holders is a, because they were tried for upgrade, and b, because they have had Trueviews done. The old certs are lost when the coins are broken out for pics and replaced with new certs.

    3. A quick look at the registry sets will show that there really are not that many superbly toned MPLs. I had 8 in my set and in looking at the other sets I see about 15 that I once owned. Thats 23 coins out of a mintage of 15,000 and those coins were only found after a fairly exhaustive 2 year search. Two of the coins in my sigline were previously in a registry set at the same grade. Three were in NGC holders and two were PCGS upgrades. I would estimate that there are probably no more than 5 or 6, and this may be high, superbly toned coins for each date. This would make a total of about 40-60 superior coins.

    4. I would probably have to be a fool to believe that every coin in my sigline is original toning. I would say that anyone who has a collection of coins, other than in mint packaging, has at least one coin that does not have original surfaces. There are coins in red holders that are not red. There are coins in red holders that have been recolored. There are silver coins, gold coins, bronze coins in holders that have been dipped, stripped, puttied, thumbed, lasered, ect. But your comments make it seem as though there is a factory out there just pumping these coins out. This, IMHO, is a bit of a reach.

    5. I had a group of about 20 auction catalogs from the late 1970s and early 1980s. I made a copy of every MPL that came up for auction. The auction descriptions frequently said that the coins had green, violet, blue toning, although very few were described as Gem or better. In fact I was able to track one coin from an auction appearance in 1982 to a recent Heritage auction. The color plate and the Heritage photo were identical.

    6. Just look at the upcoming FUN auctions. How many MPLs currently up for auction are wonderfully toned? I dont see a damned one.




    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • Wow Brian I’m humbled to be mentioned in your post.

    I remember five years or so ago debating with Doug about red/brown vs. full red. Of course I wasn’t necessarily siding with red/brown so much as I was supporting colorfully toned MPLs. Just as the introduction to my set says, which I have not changed in the many years since I wrote it. BTW every coin in my set has great color and every one is in old holders and therefore presumably original.

    Brian, your post seems like it is a veiled response to the assertion that some recently-made MPLs may be AT. Particularly since you are responsible for so many of the recently-made MPLs. For which you should be congratulated, not questioned.

    I can’t say whether a questionable bunch of new “colorfully toned” MPLs are appearing now. What I can say is that colorful samples existed 15 years ago when I was buying, though they were scarce, even relative to full red examples. I did the coast-to-coast thing that your friend did in order to put my set together, they were out there, scarce but not totally impossible, and I mostly bought them. That’s why the debates with Doug, I felt that colorfully-toned MPLs were as scarce as full-red examples and given their beauty and scarcity, should be priced comparably to full red MPLs.

    My biggest dilemma is that now my set is impossible to sell to someone who will keep it together. Anyone I sell it too will break it up, and ruin it as far as its originality (all OGH) is concerned. I’d love to have the money yet hate to see it disassembled. Frankly the money being spent today, bring it on….
  • TomBTomB Posts: 21,433 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>No doubt this will be an unpopular opinion on this thread, but I believe many of the wonderfully colored matte proof Lincolns we see populating the registry sets are altered coins. I write this because I cannot recall seeing coins with the same color schemes several years ago, at a time when the matte proof Lincoln niche was not as popular as today. Over the course of the last few years these pieces have popped up with alarming frequency, again in my opinion only, and they appear to have popped up in new holders. The absence of old holders for these coins indicates to me the possibility, which is consistent with my anecdotal observations, that these coins are being manufactured with this color today.

    Please understand that I truly adore matte proof Lincolns and have owned a number of terrific examples. However, I have attempted to purchase coins with a noticable skin or patina, perhaps even going so far as to buy coins with retained and carbonized crud on them, and have generally walked away from pieces that look to have brand-spanking-new surfaces with questionable, in my opinion, color patterns. I am afraid that I must write that many newer collectors of this niche are more likely to fall in love with coins that might not have appeared ten years ago as they appear today. It might be the case that a beautiful TruView image and some astonishing color schemes will entice folks to buy something that I would hope to avoid.

    As for your new 1914 matte proof Lincoln, well, I believe it is indeed very new. You are entering a minefield, good luck. >>




    Hey Tom,

    You know I value your opinion, probably more than most everyone in the hobby, but I feel I must make an exception to some of your points.

    1. No doubt there are altered coins in this series, just are there are in any series, but there are probably far fewer just for the simple fact that there are fewer specimens extant.

    2. I, personally, am responsible for many of the colorful toned MPLs that have been pictured here on these boards. I have a great passion for these coins and with the help of a few dealers we searched high and low across this nation for the finest toned coins. Massive premiums were offered for these coins to bring them out of collections. The reasons why these coins are now in new holders is a, because they were tried for upgrade, and b, because they have had Trueviews done. The old certs are lost when the coins are broken out for pics and replaced with new certs.

    3. A quick look at the registry sets will show that there really are not that many superbly toned MPLs. I had 8 in my set and in looking at the other sets I see about 15 that I once owned. Thats 23 coins out of a mintage of 15,000 and those coins were only found after a fairly exhaustive 2 year search. Two of the coins in my sigline were previously in a registry set at the same grade. Three were in NGC holders and two were PCGS upgrades. I would estimate that there are probably no more than 5 or 6, and this may be high, superbly toned coins for each date. This would make a total of about 40-60 superior coins.

    4. I would probably have to be a fool to believe that every coin in my sigline is original toning. I would say that anyone who has a collection of coins, other than in mint packaging, has at least one coin that does not have original surfaces. There are coins in red holders that are not red. There are coins in red holders that have been recolored. There are silver coins, gold coins, bronze coins in holders that have been dipped, stripped, puttied, thumbed, lasered, ect. But your comments make it seem as though there is a factory out there just pumping these coins out. This, IMHO, is a bit of a reach.

    5. I had a group of about 20 auction catalogs from the late 1970s and early 1980s. I made a copy of every MPL that came up for auction. The auction descriptions frequently said that the coins had green, violet, blue toning, although very few were described as Gem or better. In fact I was able to track one coin from an auction appearance in 1982 to a recent Heritage auction. The color plate and the Heritage photo were identical.

    6. Just look at the upcoming FUN auctions. How many MPLs currently up for auction are wonderfully toned? I dont see a damned one. >>



    Howdy Dave. It is entirely within your right to disagree with any of my opinions or even the basis for any of my opinions. Since they are only my personal opinions, we know that I cannot prove that they are true; they are simply a reflection of my experiences. I will try to keep my responses tidy and will number them in an attempt to answer your well thought out observations.

    1) Of course I agree with you that there are altered coins in every series, but this thread originated in response to a better-known, altered matte proof Lincoln that may have been purchased by someone entering this very hot, rapidly escalating in price market, which is why my comments are directed toward this market and are not directed toward silver, gold or nickel coinage. I also agree with you that there are likely fewer overall manipulated coins in this niche, by an absolute number, than some other niche markets. However, I do not know if I could extend this to mean that there is a lower rate of manipulation in this niche market relative to other niche markets.

    2) There was never any doubt in my mind regarding your passion for this series, nor has there ever been a doubt in my mind about the efforts expended to acquire these pieces. TruView images will obviously preclude the existance of older slabs with a high number of monster toned matte proof Lincoln cents, but I would have thought that a gifted photographer, perhaps someone along the lines of a Brandon, Mark or Mike, might have at one point imaged these exceptionally nice coins prior to the advent of TruView. Obviously, with a small pool to choose from, there would be limited opportunity for these gifted photographers to image such coins, but there might be some sort of slim possibility that someone took a quality image of them at one point prior to recertification. It should also be evident that I have not made it my life's work to uncover these images, so they may actually be out there.

    3) I absolutely agree that these coins are tough and that you have owned quite a few of them. Your estimates as to overall scarcity are likely as valid or more valid than anyone else and certainly must be given more weight than any estimates that I might put forth. The only difference might be where one defines the lower limit for a superb coin, which will most likely differ somewhat between folks.

    4) My response here is similar to the first response in that this thread was dedicated to matte proof Lincoln cents and that was where my initial post was restricted. Of course I agree that all types of coinage have been heavily manipulated in a variety of ways over time and that these practices are likely to continue at least as long as there is a perceived financial reward. It may read as though I have painted all toned matte proof Lincolns with a similar brush, but this is not the case. However, each person may of course read into my posts something different.

    5+6) Your points five and six may directly contradict one another. Point five states that there were many matte proof Lincoln cents described in the 1970s and 1980s as having green, violet and blue toning on them. If I understood your point correctly, you are using these texts to defend the notion that there was a pool of wonderfully toned matte proof Lincolns extant 20-30 years ago. I have no problem with this effort and believe there is some merit to it. However, you then state in point six that there are a number of matte proof Lincoln cents in the upcoming Heritage auctions and that you "don't see a damned one" that is wonderfully toned. This is also an extremely fair and valid assessment of the current market. The problem I have with these two points, if I am understanding their intent correctly, is that if one reads the descriptive texts to the 16 upcoming matte proof Lincoln auctions one will find them described as "cherry-red", "olive-brown", "golden-brown", "forest-green", "lemon-copper", "olive-orange", "pumpkin-inflicted" ("pumpkin-inflicted"!?!?!?), "orange-red", "cherry-red", "cherrywood", "mint", "orange", "violet", "copper-gold", "reddish-orange", "violet", "teak", "cherry-red", "sky-blue", "rich lilac", "orange", "light blue", "cherry-red" and "mint-green". Therefore, there are seven references to green, violet or blue colors within these 16 lots, although some lots received more than one reference, which might make the total to be four coins that received the green, violet or blue adjective. I could easily have misinterpreted your post, but your point five seems to indicate that the use of these adjectives might infer a superior coin, yet your point six has looked through the images and discounted all the coins even though a number of them contain these adjectives.

    I don't think you and I are all that far apart in how we view certain aspects of this niche market or the overall hobby-industry. In my opinion, it may be a case of how one reads the text-based medium that might make us appear to be taking somewhat different stances.

    An additional comment I would like to add is who the heck uses the term "pumpkin-inflicted"?!?!?!?!?
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,284 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hey Tom,

    We have discussed this topic via PM so I know you are aware of my stance on this topic.image

    I merely stated the past auction discriptions to illustrate that toned MPLs have been in existance for quite some time and before the advent of TPGs. You are correct in your assertation that adjectives such as superbly and wonderfully can have different interpretations between individuals. It is from my experience of having seen in hand hundreds of GEM MPLs that very few would garner such adjectives from me. There are many toned coins, but very few mooses or monsters.

    don't think you and I are all that far apart in how we view certain aspects of this niche market or the overall hobby-industry. In my opinion, it may be a case of how one reads the text-based medium that might make us appear to be taking somewhat different stances

    AGREED 100%


    pumpkin-inflicted ROLF!!!!!!
    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • tim
    i for one would not break up that set...
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