Toned Matte Proof Lincolns
ahooka454
Posts: 3,466 ✭
Hey all,
New to the registry sets program. Seems very intresting. I started with the matte proof Lincoln cents. My first addition was the 1912 PCGS PR64BR. I think it stands a solid shot at upgrading, well see what CAC thinks. ERRR! The newest addition is the 1909 PCGS PR63 RB. Nice color and really nothing limiting the grade, eye appeal is nice as well. Off to CAC as well... Apperantly I am not the only one really hunting for these lil' gems. Sounds very fun to become part of the group that is wise to the underrated nature of these cents.
Anyone know of any 1909vdb pr 60-63 BR/RB s are currently up for purchase? All help is great...
New to the registry sets program. Seems very intresting. I started with the matte proof Lincoln cents. My first addition was the 1912 PCGS PR64BR. I think it stands a solid shot at upgrading, well see what CAC thinks. ERRR! The newest addition is the 1909 PCGS PR63 RB. Nice color and really nothing limiting the grade, eye appeal is nice as well. Off to CAC as well... Apperantly I am not the only one really hunting for these lil' gems. Sounds very fun to become part of the group that is wise to the underrated nature of these cents.
Anyone know of any 1909vdb pr 60-63 BR/RB s are currently up for purchase? All help is great...
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Comments
as much FUN as you can with each NEW addition no matter what grade or designation of color. Only Toned coins can really
make it even more FUN. Anyone with early Matte Proof Lincolns is a real
Mike.
Someday REAL American HERO's will be on our COINS.
rabbitracks toned showcase set
myurl
Anyone know of any 1909vdb pr 60-63 BR/RB s are currently up for purchase? All help is great... >>
Welcome Adam.
If you check the populations of PCGS and NGC coins you will see there are VERY few certified in those grades. ANACS has just a few also. Don't attempt to aquire a RAW 1909vdb Matte proof unless you can see the three diagnostics attributable to the coin. If you have a real desire to get this particular coin your best and possibly your only shot is to get it at a major auction. A 64 brown example will be auctioned at the FUN auction in January by Heritage. Be prepared to bid at least $10,000 if you want it. Good luck, and again, welcome.
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
From one Buckeye to another, welcome brother. MPLs are great! If you have any questions, you can pm me, although I'm not a very bright curly, I'll try to give you as much info as I can.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Thanks for the kind words and the link. I have seen you set before, and i think its wonderful. Well put together. I do collect pretty much everything, from cent to store cards/hard time tokens, early British coinage, shipwreack artifacts, as you can see pretty much everything. I think I left out U.S. coinage though, all series all denominations.
The matte proof Lincolns really took me by surprise. I have a Gem 09' SVDB, but am more proud to own the mattes. Funny how somethings can over shadow a trophy coin huh?Anyway, the more I hear from and read stuff on the net, my desire to accuire a 09'vdb matte choice in a lower grade, will be a long jorney and challenge. I like that for some reason, if it was available I think it may deminish the passion I have for it. Happy huntings all, and keep up the feed back,(I love talking coins).
Very proud to be a part of the Hobby Of Kings...
Here is a monster 1911 PCGS PR66BN sold to a Washington State collector friend of mine. Ex. Thunderbolt!!
Great news for all the nuts for matte prfs. Today I purchased my thhird coin in my matte prf set, a 1914 NGC PR66* Br. It is the highest graded at NGC, and the only matte prf with a star designation, not only for the date of 1914,Also its the only star coin in the entire series of lincoln matte prfs. I now have a coin that over-shadows my PCGS 65 rd 09svdb. Lol funny how a toned coin can beat a gem key date.
Also funny thing about that coin is, Look at the FUN sale coming up, THERE ARE NO 1914 PRFS. not one. I love this hobby............
I will soon have pics up.
Looking forward to seeing the pics.
As far as 1914 MPL's go, I currently have 3 available in PCGS holders, one is going out to a midwest collector tomorrow
Don't know anything about the e-bay brother, but I'm sure looking forward to seeing that '14 MPL.
ill get it though.
O.H.....I.O!!!
-Paul
Welcome ahooka454 !!!
Mike
My Ebay
1934-1958 RB Lincoln Short Set
Good job, brother! That's one good lookin' coin! Great price too! Good things happen to people who love the Buckeyes!
<< <i>Hey, isn't that one of the coins that gmarguli "conserved" with MS-70? >>
Yup. Thats the one I was thinking about.
Edited to add link
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
"a chemical surface treatment" and it affects the color of copper.
Brother, in my opinion, you're ok. The way I understand it is that coins that have been properly cleaned are considered "market acceptable" and the TPGs will grade it. A lot of copper have been cleaned with MS-70. Some of the brothers will say it's wrong and some will say it's ok. In my opinion, if the coin is beautiful to me and it's TPGd, then I want it.
Remember, you're not in this to make others happy. Lord, you start doing that and you're gonna be miserable.
Actually, I haven't seen any evidence yet that your coin has had anything done to it.
Thanks for the advice. I agree. I see no evidence of a cleaning. Also if its the top pop coin in brown, then it was seen as a top notch coin nomatter what. I think I made a wise purchase anyways. And your right about cleaning, done right it is not harmful. I also agree with the not making others happy, Im in it for the history personally.(and the challenge!) I do love talking coins with you guys, makes the hobby more fun...
<< <i>FINE. thanks for the answer, i was asking a general question for everyone. If ANYONE knows why NGC would slab a coin, with a star as the finest known? and not label its been cleaned? I ask this because almost every matte proof lincoln can be said to have been cleaned then. The colorful toning on matte proof lincolns is from yrs of storage in envelopes with sulfar. I dont think its been cleaned, but we will see what ngc says. Any help from intrested KNOWLEDGABLE collectors are welcomed. >>
That coin was discussed on page 7 of This Thread on the NGC Forums.
The images are no longer there -- perhaps codhock has them and can repost them.
To make a long story short, Greg Margulies ("gmarguli" on the NGC boards) purchased the coin from Hertiage -- it was fugly toned and and in a NGC PF65RB holder. The coin was then "conserved" in MS-70, which stripped the fugly toning and left the blue/pink toning, and then graded PF66*RB at NGC. As you can see by the length of the thread, using MS70 on proof Indian Cents and MPL Lincolns provided for quite a debate with mulitple threads going on both the NGC and PCGS boards about a year ago.
<< <i>I really dont know what to do now... Any thoughts. >>
This is an age old question that most of us face at some time in our collecting adventure. If it's a coin that when you look at it you always think it's been cleaned, then return it. But, when you look at it and decide that NGC graded the coin so that's good enough for me, then keep it. Ultimately, the decison is yours. Wish I could have been of more help.
thats exactly what i was thinking to myself.
i need to see it in person and go from there. the seller offers a 7 day return policy.
youre right about ngc. if they graded it, then some of the best graders thought it was star quality. it will be intresting to have this experiance after all has settled. thanks for the input, its great to hear what other coin guys are thinking...
Lee nice set there. very beautiful colors and all very choice.
In case you haven't searched for it, your coin looked like this when gmarguli bought it out of a heritage auction April 24, 2006. 1914 MPL PR65rb Ex: Childs
Draw your own conclusions as to whether you think the coin has been materially altered. There were various heated threads on this site (and NGC) regarding this specific coin which were deleted. If you bought this coin with the expectation that it will cross, you may be in for a disappointing result.
You and I learn more via these forums than were possible years ago. Obviously this coin has a history which will stay with it. It HAD a pedigree. I doubt very seriously that you could EVER get this coin to cross to PCGS at this point. As I followed this thread I thought as you did, first elation that the coin was the ONLY NGC* matte proof, then the unusual color (which I as a collector don't particularly like because it seems artificial to me, but I realize many mattes naturally tone this way, except completely different colors on obverse and reverse seemed strange) Then, thanks to knowlegeable board members the history of this coin is brought to light. So..... YOU have to decide what to do. If you like owning a Childs coin in a NGC holder then keep it. If you don't feel comfortable, send it back to the dealer with the 7 day return policy. There are enough 1914 MPL's available FOR A PRICE that you will get the right one in a reasonable amount of time. Good luck. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>Adam,
You and I learn more via these forums than were possible years ago. Obviously this coin has a history which will stay with it. It HAD a pedigree. I doubt very seriously that you could EVER get this coin to cross to PCGS at this point. As I followed this thread I thought as you did, first elation that the coin was the ONLY NGC* matte proof, then the unusual color (which I as a collector don't particularly like because it seems artificial to me, but I realize many mattes naturally tone this way, except completely different colors on obverse and reverse seemed strange) Then, thanks to knowlegeable board members the history of this coin is brought to light. So..... YOU have to decide what to do. If you like owning a Childs coin in a NGC holder then keep it. If you don't feel comfortable, send it back to the dealer with the 7 day return policy. There are enough 1914 MPL's available FOR A PRICE that you will get the right one in a reasonable amount of time. Good luck. Steve
Great bit of advice. No one could have defined the situation any better or clearer.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Thanks for the reply. Its very true about the amout of knowledge we as collectors can learn about a single coin. Wow! I lokked at your set several times in the past and love it. Well put together and very nice overall. I like the coin, I like the color (and have seen a few with different colors on the obv.-rev.)but not alot, the only thing is I thought NGC and PCGS wouldnt grade coins that are enhanced or cleaned? If we know as a small group of collectors of these coins, why do they not? I understand about crackouts and all that, but to go from a choice 65rb to a 66* br is,well, questionable. I know dipping or enhancing makes a coin look better(if done properly), but that big of a jump and the only star for the series, and the fact that it (may be a cleaned coin? If thats the case NGC needs to catch up and do the proper research.
Hey Bob,
Thanks for the reply aswell, Your lincoln matte prfs are beautiful. Very nice colorful set.
I really would like to understand the NGC determination on grading this coin with a star, especially since it is the ONLY mpl they have done. It must have been determined with agreement by their top grader. I wonder if they would seek to get it off the market at that grade by paying the owner under their guarantee?
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
i truly would think ngc would step up to the plate on this matty as it will always cast poor shadow over them but it's up to an owner of it to do so...will an owner ever do so???
but in the same breathe...what do i know
i'm way on the beginner side still after actively re-entering my lil childhood hobby now for some 2 years....but it's through these boards and awesome members that i'm a happy beginner.
kudos to all of you
<< <i>I really would like to understand the NGC determination on grading this coin with a star >>
You may label me a cynic, but I think it helps if the 'right' person submits the coin
I bought a 1986 Lincoln cent a few years ago from my local B+M dealer right up here in northern NJ. As some may know, NGC used to be located in Parsippany, NJ until they relocated to Florida. I know that not all of the graders moved to Florida along with NGC, and at least one of them has been 'vest-pocketing' around these parts since the move. My local dealer has a pretty good relationship with this former NGC grader, so it's always been very convenient to have my dealer submit coins to NGC through this gentleman.
So, after my dealers snickering and guffawing at wanting to certify a 1986 Lincoln cent(
The only toned steel cent I had ever seen up to that point that was cetified by one of the Big 3(NGC 67), a 1934 MS66BN(which since crossed to PCGS pop 1/0), and my 1952-D MS66RB endroll toner are a few that stand out in my mind. There was also my green toned 1925 65RB, a super blue and lavender 1911 65RB.
One may say that this is too small of a sample to be able to come to the conclusion that it matters who sent it in. I say that I've seen enough to be thoroughly confused and frustrated with the seemingly randomness application of the star designation.
I guess I should have sent them through the dealer
Lincoln set Colorless Set
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Please understand that I truly adore matte proof Lincolns and have owned a number of terrific examples. However, I have attempted to purchase coins with a noticable skin or patina, perhaps even going so far as to buy coins with retained and carbonized crud on them, and have generally walked away from pieces that look to have brand-spanking-new surfaces with questionable, in my opinion, color patterns. I am afraid that I must write that many newer collectors of this niche are more likely to fall in love with coins that might not have appeared ten years ago as they appear today. It might be the case that a beautiful TruView image and some astonishing color schemes will entice folks to buy something that I would hope to avoid.
As for your new 1914 matte proof Lincoln, well, I believe it is indeed very new. You are entering a minefield, good luck.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I have a few comments as a response to ponder over
First, when the mattes were made they were put into envelopes, that contianed sulfar? I have heard that many times.
Second, if they were, they will nodoubt tone.
If they had remained in the 2x2 holders or other non sealed holder, they would tone slower because the atmosphere would remain the same, as it did for the last 100 yrs or so.
Once they are sealed sonicly, the air inside with the coin is removed, well that doesnt mean the patina or sulfar on the coins surface is gone. If anything it will change the toning and change the speed up or slow it down. IT WILL NOT STOP IT.
That contaminent, whatever it may be will still be on the coin. Sealing a coin in a slab is still a releativly new science.(not grading) how do we as a industry know for a fact sealing the coin is not the culprit. I am by no means an expert, but I do consider myself to be a Numismatist.
A 1909 PCGS PR63RB came to me in the mail today,its better in person than in a photo. it is firery red orange. Granted its not electric blue, but it is vibrant and toned. It is also in a Green label holder. I am in the middle with all this. My contact at NGC confirms that as far as their concerned it IS NOT CLEANED OR DOCTORED. I know thats only their opinion but thats why we pay them $15-30 a coin for them to say it real. I also think if NGC says its legit PCGS should cross it over. Even if it goes up or down, if the other top firm says its real they should at least consider it. If they dont where does that leave us as a whole. Well its in a NGC holder, is it real or cleaned? What a scarey thought with all those millions in rare coins out there. Leaves me to think if it is doctored, NGC loses major credability with me and my collection...