<< <i>Bottom line, you leave the table with the coin and you own it. >>
I agree 100%. If you look at a coin in hand and make the decision to purchase it...you're stuck with it. Dealers have every right to refuse the return of a coin you've seen in hand at their tables.
Positive BST transactions with: too many names to list! 36 at last count.
Nice guys. I am not a huge fan of the coins that they carry, but I have had a couple decent transactions with them. Overall, nothing special about them on the quality or service side. I rarely look at their inventory any more, either in person at shows or on the website. If they had something I needed, I would not hesitate to buy from them.
<< <i>Bottom line, you leave the table with the coin and you own it. >>
I agree 100%. If you look at a coin in hand and make the decision to purchase it...you're stuck with it. Dealers have every right to refuse the return of a coin you've seen in hand at their tables. >>
So I guess that it is the fact that a transaction takes place at a coin show where there are coin dealers at tables.....that is different from a purchase made sight unseen where a dealer ships the coin to your home after payment and gives you a 3 to five day return privelage?
I can understand that policy with other dealers.
But I would do it differently with the public buyer. If I were a dealer I would allow a 3 day to five day return policy whether the coin was bought at a show or I sent to someone's home.
Regarding a no return policy at shows for John Q Public to me speaks lack of confidence in one's inventory or predatory pricing by the selling dealer.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
So I guess that it is the fact that a transaction takes place at a coin show where there are coin dealers at tables.....that is different from a purchase made sight unseen where a dealer ships the coin to your home after payment and gives you a 3 to five day return privelage?
I generally prefer to make serious numismatic purchases by mail, in part, for that reason. I get to study coin, at my leisure, under my preferred conditions, with no one breathing down my back--it's my home field advantage. At my first FUN show, I remember purchasing a 58-D $5 that looked great at the bourse, but as soon as I got it outside, I hated it. That lesson stuck with me.
I feel comfortable buying inexpensive coins, low-mid grade circ coins, modern mint issues, and a few other categories on the bourse.
<< <i>...But I would do it differently with the public buyer. If I were a dealer I would allow a 3 day to five day return policy whether the coin was bought at a show or I sent to someone's home.
Regarding a no return policy at shows for John Q Public to me speaks lack of confidence in one's inventory or predatory pricing by the selling dealer. >>
I have to disagree with you about this. When you bought the coin at the show, you had every opportunity to inspect the coin to make sure that it was acceptable. The fact that you ended up with buyer's remorse does not mean that the dealer is required to give you all of your money back. I'm sure there are dealers who would give you your money back. But that doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with BrokenCC or that they are guilty of "predatory pricing".
Look at it this way... during the period that you had the coin, BrokenCC could not sell it to anyone else. Then, once the show was over, you wanted to give it back to them. Had you not purchased a coin that you did not really want, it is possible that BrokenCC could have sold it to someone else at the show. What you wanted to do would have been an inconvenience to them because your indecisiveness may have cost them a sale to someone who actually wanted the coin. So why should they have given you 100% of your money back?
<< <i>So I guess that it is the fact that a transaction takes place at a coin show where there are coin dealers at tables.....that is different from a purchase made sight unseen where a dealer ships the coin to your home after payment and gives you a 3 to five day return privelage?
I generally prefer to make serious numismatic purchases by mail, in part, for that reason. I get to study coin, at my leisure, under my preferred conditions, with no one breathing down my back--it's my home field advantage. At my first FUN show, I remember purchasing a 58-D $5 that looked great at the bourse, but as soon as I got it outside, I hated it. That lesson stuck with me.
I feel comfortable buying inexpensive coins, low-mid grade circ coins, modern mint issues, and a few other categories on the bourse. >>
I share your feeling on hating it after you see it in a different light so to speak there Robert. How many dealers will let you leave the table with a coin to examine it in that light before you commit to a purchase?
<< <i>...But I would do it differently with the public buyer. If I were a dealer I would allow a 3 day to five day return policy whether the coin was bought at a show or I sent to someone's home.
Regarding a no return policy at shows for John Q Public to me speaks lack of confidence in one's inventory or predatory pricing by the selling dealer. >>
I have to disagree with you about this. When you bought the coin at the show, you had every opportunity to inspect the coin to make sure that it was acceptable. The fact that you ended up with buyer's remorse does not mean that the dealer is required to give you all of your money back. I'm sure there are dealers who would give you your money back. But that doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with BrokenCC or that they are guilty of "predatory pricing".
Look at it this way... during the period that you had the coin, BrokenCC could not sell it to anyone else. Then, once the show was over, you wanted to give it back to them. Had you not purchased a coin that you did not really want, it is possible that BrokenCC could have sold it to someone else at the show. What you wanted to do would have been an inconvenience to them because your indecisiveness may have cost them a sale to someone who actually wanted the coin. So why should they have given you 100% of your money back? >>
Yes, absolutely they could have sold the coin to someone else and I understand this. But is your scenario really any different than sending the coin to someone at there home with a 3 to 5 day return privelage? I recognize potential purchasers of same coin are put on a hold mode but that would be the case in both instances. It sends the wrong message to me as a consumer to have two policies.
Actually, the homefield advantage, as RYK puts it makes alot of sense if collectors are going to have to be subject to different return policies.
The lesson learned for me on this experience is to ask alot of questions regarding return policies before making the purchase because it certainly was not forthcoming voluntarily at time of purchase.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>But is your scenario really any different than sending the coin to someone at there home with a 3 to 5 day return privelage? >>
There's a HUGE difference! Dealers are more willing to send a coin to someone because no matter how good a picture is, it never looks exactly like the coin. Dealers understand this. When you're sitting at a dealer's table you can spend all the time you want deciding if you like the coin. Once you make the decision that, yes, I want this coin what right do you have to change your mind? Don't buy if you're not ready, it's as simple as that.
Positive BST transactions with: too many names to list! 36 at last count.
The seller may not want to send it to you at home for a 3-5 day inspection and tie up the funds for a "maybe" sale. In many cases they just rather take it to a show and know that they'll probably sell it. Most of what I sell is done at shows to dealers inspecting the coins first. Why waste time sending something through the mail for a possible sale when you know you have several great prospects at a show....and for the same money or more. But I'd have no problem sending a slow-mover at "all the money" via mail to help pay for the troubles. That's why the 3-5 day thing exists there and not at shows. Sellers go to large shows to sell coins. And they want to know that when they sell them, they aren't coming back on Monday am. to screw up the cash-flow equation. What if the market falls apart by Friday (think April 1980). Do you think sellers want their stuff back the following Monday? It has less to do with confidence in one's product than it does having confidence in one's buyer. Buyer's return stuff all the time, often for the wrong reasons. Or maybe they found a cheaper one over the weekend. Buyer's remorse.
<< <i>[Yes, absolutely they could have sold the coin to someone else and I understand this. But is your scenario really any different than sending the coin to someone at there home with a 3 to 5 day return privelage? I recognize potential purchasers of same coin are put on a hold mode but that would be the case in both instances. It sends the wrong message to me as a consumer to have two policies. >>
There is a big difference between buying a coin at a show and having one sent to your home for inspection. Had someone approached the dealer at the show after you bought the coin, the dealer would not have been able to put them on hold. Instead, he would have told them that the coin was sold. So the potential sale would be lost since the other buyer would leave the table and go elsewhere. But if the coin had been sent to you for approval, the dealer could put other potential buyers on hold while you made your decision. In that case, if you returned the coin the dealer could contact the other buyer.
Also, when a coin is sent out for approval, most dealers will leave the coin up on their web site. So other buyers will know that the dealer is selling the coin. But after you bought the coin at the show, anyone looking through the dealer's case would not have seen the coin and would have simply moved on.
So if you show a dealer a competitors coin, he is going to give you an unbiased opinion rather that suggest that you are better off buying one of his coins? I can see this sometimes but not most of the time.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>How many dealers will let you leave the table with a coin to examine it in that light before you commit to a purchase? >>
A few years back a dealer that was at the Boeing Show in Seattle must have saw me come into the show. I was at another dealers table and he came over and slapped a slab in my hand and then told me to look at it. He then walked off before I could say a word or even look at the coin.
The coin was a 1916D Mercury Dime graded AU58 by NGC, properly graded by the way, and I almost chit my pants and then went into panic trying to find him. No way did I want to be carrying the coin around the show. Yes dealers will let you examine coins if you ask and sometimes when you do not ask. Out west must be different than back east.
Well, I purchased a Liberty Eagle from their booth at the Santa Clara show and they were pretty darn clear about their 3 day return policy. I think they are a class act.
Their broken CC coin was there too. I wonder how that thing got out of the mint in the first place. Must have snapped in two shortly afterwards.
Thank you for all the positive feedback in this thread. We appreciate all of the comments as they either tell us what we are doing right, or what we may try to improve on.
The only feed back to address is from bidask.
I am sorry that I do not recall the actual deal, when it transpired, or who you actually are. And having said that I do invite you to email us at info@brokencc.com and I will further explain if I can, but here are some possible reasons for not buying the coin back:
-First and most likely is that the coin was a consignment or a partnered coin. Though this is very rare for us, I think that is what happened in this case as it seems to be ringing a bell. Once a deal like that is consumated to offer a buy back means we now have to stock the coin at the price we buy it back at. If ordering through the mail the deal is not consumated with the consignor/partner until the return privilage has expired. And if I am remembering this at all it seems that it happened a year or more ago.??? -Second and most obvious is that the market dropped or corrected. This has happened a lot in the last few years with metals bouncing around, but even then it is very very rare to get a call back about returning a coin after a show (no one has ever called when the market jumped up! But we have offered customers profit within a day of their purchase!) -Also at shows we are never against letting a customer ask other dealers/friends for opinions, even though the dealer they ask may have other agendas within the opinion they render. We feel that committing to a deal is committing to a deal, but we do try and work with our customers and appreciate when they try to work with us.
Again thank you to all those leaving us your comments to this thread. Allen
I can tell you that as a result of this thread, I perused their inventory and bought a coin. I am exceptionally happy with my purchase and will check back with them often.
As far as dealers allowing me to carry coins away from their tables and get a second opinion... My experience is that if they know you, it's not an issue. Heck, one dealer who posts here let me walk out of the show with a 5K+ coin - "Just mail it back if you get home and don't like it". It's an awesome Proof IHC, and I did in fact buy it.
Do trustworthy things, and people tend to trust you
<< <i>Thank you for all the positive feedback in this thread. We appreciate all of the comments as they either tell us what we are doing right, or what we may try to improve on.
The only feed back to address is from bidask.
I am sorry that I do not recall the actual deal, when it transpired, or who you actually are. And having said that I do invite you to email us at info@brokencc.com and I will further explain if I can, but here are some possible reasons for not buying the coin back:
-First and most likely is that the coin was a consignment or a partnered coin. Though this is very rare for us, I think that is what happened in this case as it seems to be ringing a bell. Once a deal like that is consumated to offer a buy back means we now have to stock the coin at the price we buy it back at. If ordering through the mail the deal is not consumated with the consignor/partner until the return privilage has expired. And if I am remembering this at all it seems that it happened a year or more ago.??? -Second and most obvious is that the market dropped or corrected. This has happened a lot in the last few years with metals bouncing around, but even then it is very very rare to get a call back about returning a coin after a show (no one has ever called when the market jumped up! But we have offered customers profit within a day of their purchase!) -Also at shows we are never against letting a customer ask other dealers/friends for opinions, even though the dealer they ask may have other agendas within the opinion they render. We feel that committing to a deal is committing to a deal, but we do try and work with our customers and appreciate when they try to work with us.
Again thank you to all those leaving us your comments to this thread. Allen >>
This was a 5 figure coin and had nothing to do with bullion. The market did not drop by 18 to 20% in the day and a half I owned it.
If it was a consignment and there was no return privelage you did not divulge that to me at time of purchase which I bought in person.
I pm'ed you the details of the transaction..................
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Well, I purchased a Liberty Eagle from their booth at the Santa Clara show and they were pretty darn clear about their 3 day return policy. I think they are a class act.
Their broken CC coin was there too. I wonder how that thing got out of the mint in the first place. Must have snapped in two shortly afterwards. >>
I am glad you were offered a 3 day return privelage after buying the coin in person at the Santa Clara show.
I was not treated that way.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>...But I would do it differently with the public buyer. If I were a dealer I would allow a 3 day to five day return policy whether the coin was bought at a show or I sent to someone's home.
Regarding a no return policy at shows for John Q Public to me speaks lack of confidence in one's inventory or predatory pricing by the selling dealer. >>
I have to disagree with you about this. When you bought the coin at the show, you had every opportunity to inspect the coin to make sure that it was acceptable. The fact that you ended up with buyer's remorse does not mean that the dealer is required to give you all of your money back. I'm sure there are dealers who would give you your money back. But that doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with BrokenCC or that they are guilty of "predatory pricing".
Look at it this way... during the period that you had the coin, BrokenCC could not sell it to anyone else. Then, once the show was over, you wanted to give it back to them. Had you not purchased a coin that you did not really want, it is possible that BrokenCC could have sold it to someone else at the show. What you wanted to do would have been an inconvenience to them because your indecisiveness may have cost them a sale to someone who actually wanted the coin. So why should they have given you 100% of your money back? >>
So essentially you are advocating a NO REFUNDS ALL SALES ARE FINAL policy on behalf of dealers towards collectors if a coin is inspected and bought by a collector at a show....
I am not a dealer but if I was I would be happy to give a collector back their money if they changed their minds for any reason ( as long as coin or holder has not been tampered)within 3 to 5 days. It would be no big deal to me and the right thing to do.
A dealer I would be more strict.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I believe that we were fair with him and explained our end in more detail than required to him. Will not post our response here, but if he is still dissatisfied we welcome him to post our PM to him on this thread. Allen
<< <i>OK everybody PMed bidask in response to his PM.
I believe that we were fair with him and explained our end in more detail than required to him. Will not post our response here, but if he is still dissatisfied we welcome him to post our PM to him on this thread. Allen >>
I said to you I consider private messages to be private. But since you are inviting me to post your pm message I will do that and my response:
Allen: Date Posted: Apr/17/2008 9:23 PM Dan, Now I remember the deal. Aaron sold you the coin, where I don't remember. When you bought it you showed no hesitation or doubt about the quality or price. I believe it was at greysheet bid. The coin was on consignment and the guy we had it from was anxious about it as it was the tail end of a much larger deal we were in. By Saturday night I had relayed to him that the coin was sold and that he had a check on the way(for this and several other coins). We had taken it on consignment because he wanted to get greysheet for it and we had seen that auctions had recently sold one for just south of $10K. When I offered you $10K for it I had already committed to paying him much more than that and did not have another prospect with the coin. I don't think you were overcharged because these coins don't trade often and so their price is harder to establish, but to just buy one outright without a customer is hard to do as there are not many 2 1/2 Lib collectors. I thought you were the guy for that coin and seemed happy to have aquired it. If you would have sold it back to me I may have lost money on the coin, but I did offer you more than a blowout price for it. May be there is no way that you will think we tried to do the right thing, but I believe we did. We are very open and would have explained this to you had you asked at the time, but now that deal is at least a year old if not two years old and there is no way to rectify it in any form. If you want to post my PM response on the message board please feel free. Allen
My response:
Date Posted: Apr/17/2008 10:09 PM
What is amazing about your response is that it is all about you, your 'larger deal', and your consignors, not about what is right with the customer.
You neither told me of it being on consignment or your return policies. Since it was this stringent and out of the ordianry I should not have to ask, you should volunteer those terms.
That was your mistake.
I bought the coin at greysheet ask. Of course I was happy at the time I bought it but examination under different light caused me to change my mine when at home. My calling you first thing Monday morning was reasonable.
Whats funny is that you think that offering me 10k for a coin I paid 12k a day and half befores is a "MORE THAN A BLOWOUT PRICE".
You really think so?
Who cares if it was 2 years ago or a year ago, there is always a way to rectify a deal if you want too.
You did not want to rectify anything from the gitgo.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>OK everybody PMed bidask in response to his PM.
I believe that we were fair with him and explained our end in more detail than required to him. Will not post our response here, but if he is still dissatisfied we welcome him to post our PM to him on this thread. Allen >>
I said to you I consider private messages to be private. But since you are inviting me to post your pm message I will do that and my response:
Allen: Date Posted: Apr/17/2008 9:23 PM Dan, Now I remember the deal. Aaron sold you the coin, where I don't remember. When you bought it you showed no hesitation or doubt about the quality or price. I believe it was at greysheet bid. The coin was on consignment and the guy we had it from was anxious about it as it was the tail end of a much larger deal we were in. By Saturday night I had relayed to him that the coin was sold and that he had a check on the way(for this and several other coins). We had taken it on consignment because he wanted to get greysheet for it and we had seen that auctions had recently sold one for just south of $10K. When I offered you $10K for it I had already committed to paying him much more than that and did not have another prospect with the coin. I don't think you were overcharged because these coins don't trade often and so their price is harder to establish, but to just buy one outright without a customer is hard to do as there are not many 2 1/2 Lib collectors. I thought you were the guy for that coin and seemed happy to have aquired it. If you would have sold it back to me I may have lost money on the coin, but I did offer you more than a blowout price for it. May be there is no way that you will think we tried to do the right thing, but I believe we did. We are very open and would have explained this to you had you asked at the time, but now that deal is at least a year old if not two years old and there is no way to rectify it in any form. If you want to post my PM response on the message board please feel free. Allen
My response:
Date Posted: Apr/17/2008 10:09 PM
What is amazing about your response is that it is all about you, your 'larger deal', and your consignors, not about what is right with the customer.
You neither told me of it being on consignment or your return policies. Since it was this stringent and out of the ordianry I should not have to ask, you should volunteer those terms.
That was your mistake.
I bought the coin at greysheet ask. Of course I was happy at the time I bought it but examination under different light caused me to change my mine when at home. My calling you first thing Monday morning was reasonable.
Whats funny is that you think that offering me 10k for a coin I paid 12k a day and half befores is a "MORE THAN A BLOWOUT PRICE".
You really think so?
Who cares if it was 2 years ago or a year ago, there is always a way to rectify a deal if you want too.
You did not want to rectify anything from the gitgo. >>
OK, my opinion. The buyer of the coin continues to be unhappy, but I believe that most of the fault in the unfortunate transaction lay with him. To wit:
1. The coin was bought sight-seen. 2. The coin was not owned by the seller, but consigned. No disclosure to the buyer necessary (as well, see #4) 3. The consigner was paid for his coins by the seller before the buyer asked for a refund. 4. The buyer did not inquire about the sellers return policy (or apparently much else) before purchasing the coin. 5. The seller acted in apparent good faith.
If we take every statement from both parties at face value as truth, the seller would have had to buy back a coin that may have sat in inventory for a long time, or priced at a loss to move quickly, in order to satisfy a unhappy customer. Depending on the perceived long-term value of such a customer, such a move may or may not have been worthwhile. These kinds of business decisions must be made all of the time.
My personal understanding is that my purchase of a coin is final, unless a stated return policy allows me other options.
If I were unhappy with such a transaction in my own life, the majority of my unhappiness would be with myself - especially if I held myself out as an "experienced coin buyer".
I have dealt with BrokenCC several times in the past on Ebay auctions and have always been pleased with thier service and the coins I received. I would not hesitate to deal with them again.
On BS&T Now: Nothing. Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up! Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
Comments
<< <i>Bottom line, you leave the table with the coin and you own it. >>
I agree 100%. If you look at a coin in hand and make the decision to purchase it...you're stuck with it. Dealers have every right to refuse the return of a coin you've seen in hand at their tables.
<<
- they offer return privilige and will pay the way back
- they make a strong buyback on coins they've sold you
>>
There are some caveats to their return privilege and strong buyback may be on a case by case basis.
<< <i>
<< <i>Bottom line, you leave the table with the coin and you own it. >>
I agree 100%. If you look at a coin in hand and make the decision to purchase it...you're stuck with it. Dealers have every right to refuse the return of a coin you've seen in hand at their tables. >>
So I guess that it is the fact that a transaction takes place at a coin show where there are coin dealers at tables.....that is different from a purchase made sight unseen where a dealer ships the coin to your home after payment and gives you a 3 to five day return privelage?
I can understand that policy with other dealers.
But I would do it differently with the public buyer. If I were a dealer I would allow a 3 day to five day return policy whether the coin was bought at a show or I sent to someone's home.
Regarding a no return policy at shows for John Q Public to me speaks lack of confidence in one's inventory or predatory pricing by the selling dealer.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I generally prefer to make serious numismatic purchases by mail, in part, for that reason. I get to study coin, at my leisure, under my preferred conditions, with no one breathing down my back--it's my home field advantage. At my first FUN show, I remember purchasing a 58-D $5 that looked great at the bourse, but as soon as I got it outside, I hated it. That lesson stuck with me.
I feel comfortable buying inexpensive coins, low-mid grade circ coins, modern mint issues, and a few other categories on the bourse.
<< <i>...But I would do it differently with the public buyer. If I were a dealer I would allow a 3 day to five day return policy whether the coin was bought at a show or I sent to someone's home.
Regarding a no return policy at shows for John Q Public to me speaks lack of confidence in one's inventory or predatory pricing by the selling dealer. >>
I have to disagree with you about this. When you bought the coin at the show, you had every opportunity to inspect the coin to make sure that it was acceptable. The fact that you ended up with buyer's remorse does not mean that the dealer is required to give you all of your money back. I'm sure there are dealers who would give you your money back. But that doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with BrokenCC or that they are guilty of "predatory pricing".
Look at it this way... during the period that you had the coin, BrokenCC could not sell it to anyone else. Then, once the show was over, you wanted to give it back to them. Had you not purchased a coin that you did not really want, it is possible that BrokenCC could have sold it to someone else at the show. What you wanted to do would have been an inconvenience to them because your indecisiveness may have cost them a sale to someone who actually wanted the coin. So why should they have given you 100% of your money back?
<< <i>Bought from them and would do it again.. >>
X2
<< <i>So I guess that it is the fact that a transaction takes place at a coin show where there are coin dealers at tables.....that is different from a purchase made sight unseen where a dealer ships the coin to your home after payment and gives you a 3 to five day return privelage?
I generally prefer to make serious numismatic purchases by mail, in part, for that reason. I get to study coin, at my leisure, under my preferred conditions, with no one breathing down my back--it's my home field advantage. At my first FUN show, I remember purchasing a 58-D $5 that looked great at the bourse, but as soon as I got it outside, I hated it. That lesson stuck with me.
I feel comfortable buying inexpensive coins, low-mid grade circ coins, modern mint issues, and a few other categories on the bourse. >>
I share your feeling on hating it after you see it in a different light so to speak there Robert.
How many dealers will let you leave the table with a coin to examine it in that light before you commit to a purchase?
<< <i>How many dealers will let you leave the table with a coin to examine it in that light before you commit to a purchase? >>
Few, if any, would do that. Nor should they. Dealers would be getting ripped off left and right.
<< <i>
<< <i>How many dealers will let you leave the table with a coin to examine it in that light before you commit to a purchase? >>
Few, if any, would do that. Nor should they. Dealers would be getting ripped off left and right. >>
I was thinking of the ones that know you such as the ones who will send you stuff on approval.
<< <i>
<< <i>...But I would do it differently with the public buyer. If I were a dealer I would allow a 3 day to five day return policy whether the coin was bought at a show or I sent to someone's home.
Regarding a no return policy at shows for John Q Public to me speaks lack of confidence in one's inventory or predatory pricing by the selling dealer. >>
I have to disagree with you about this. When you bought the coin at the show, you had every opportunity to inspect the coin to make sure that it was acceptable. The fact that you ended up with buyer's remorse does not mean that the dealer is required to give you all of your money back. I'm sure there are dealers who would give you your money back. But that doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with BrokenCC or that they are guilty of "predatory pricing".
Look at it this way... during the period that you had the coin, BrokenCC could not sell it to anyone else. Then, once the show was over, you wanted to give it back to them. Had you not purchased a coin that you did not really want, it is possible that BrokenCC could have sold it to someone else at the show. What you wanted to do would have been an inconvenience to them because your indecisiveness may have cost them a sale to someone who actually wanted the coin. So why should they have given you 100% of your money back? >>
Yes, absolutely they could have sold the coin to someone else and I understand this.
But is your scenario really any different than sending the coin to someone at there home with a 3 to 5 day return privelage? I recognize potential purchasers of same coin are put on a hold mode but that would be the case in both instances. It sends the wrong message to me as a consumer to have two policies.
Actually, the homefield advantage, as RYK puts it makes alot of sense if collectors are going to have to be subject to different return policies.
The lesson learned for me on this experience is to ask alot of questions regarding return policies before making the purchase because it certainly was not forthcoming voluntarily at time of purchase.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>But is your scenario really any different than sending the coin to someone at there home with a 3 to 5 day return privelage? >>
There's a HUGE difference! Dealers are more willing to send a coin to someone because no matter how good a picture is, it never looks exactly like the coin. Dealers understand this. When you're sitting at a dealer's table you can spend all the time you want deciding if you like the coin. Once you make the decision that, yes, I want this coin what right do you have to change your mind? Don't buy if you're not ready, it's as simple as that.
Or maybe they found a cheaper one over the weekend. Buyer's remorse.
roadrunner
Many, and I have walked coins from a dealer at one table to a dealer-friend at another table to get an opinion, too.
<< <i>How many dealers will let you leave the table with a coin to examine it in that light before you commit to a purchase?
Many, and I have walked coins from a dealer at one table to a dealer-friend at another table to get an opinion, too. >>
Thats a smart move and to think that many here have the testicular fortitude to bash CAC.
<< <i>[Yes, absolutely they could have sold the coin to someone else and I understand this.
But is your scenario really any different than sending the coin to someone at there home with a 3 to 5 day return privelage? I recognize potential purchasers of same coin are put on a hold mode but that would be the case in both instances. It sends the wrong message to me as a consumer to have two policies. >>
There is a big difference between buying a coin at a show and having one sent to your home for inspection. Had someone approached the dealer at the show after you bought the coin, the dealer would not have been able to put them on hold. Instead, he would have told them that the coin was sold. So the potential sale would be lost since the other buyer would leave the table and go elsewhere. But if the coin had been sent to you for approval, the dealer could put other potential buyers on hold while you made your decision. In that case, if you returned the coin the dealer could contact the other buyer.
Also, when a coin is sent out for approval, most dealers will leave the coin up on their web site. So other buyers will know that the dealer is selling the coin. But after you bought the coin at the show, anyone looking through the dealer's case would not have seen the coin and would have simply moved on.
<< <i>
<< <i>How many dealers will let you leave the table with a coin to examine it in that light before you commit to a purchase?
Many, and I have walked coins from a dealer at one table to a dealer-friend at another table to get an opinion, too. >>
Thats a smart move and to think that many here have the testicular fortitude to bash CAC.
yes getting an unbiased opinion is a smart move. what about cac?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>How many dealers will let you leave the table with a coin to examine it in that light before you commit to a purchase?
Many, and I have walked coins from a dealer at one table to a dealer-friend at another table to get an opinion, too. >>
Thats a smart move and to think that many here have the testicular fortitude to bash CAC.
yes getting an unbiased opinion is a smart move. what about cac? >>
Is CAC biased?
<< <i>How many dealers will let you leave the table with a coin to examine it in that light before you commit to a purchase? >>
A few years back a dealer that was at the Boeing Show in Seattle must have saw me come into the show. I was at another dealers table and he came over and slapped a slab in my hand and then told me to look at it. He then walked off before I could say a word or even look at the coin.
The coin was a 1916D Mercury Dime graded AU58 by NGC, properly graded by the way, and I almost chit my pants and then went into panic trying to find him. No way did I want to be carrying the coin around the show. Yes dealers will let you examine coins if you ask and sometimes when you do not ask. Out west must be different than back east.
Ken
Their broken CC coin was there too. I wonder how that thing got out of the mint in the first place. Must have snapped in two shortly afterwards.
The only feed back to address is from bidask.
I am sorry that I do not recall the actual deal, when it transpired, or who you actually are. And having said that I do invite you to email us at info@brokencc.com and I will further explain if I can, but here are some possible reasons for not buying the coin back:
-First and most likely is that the coin was a consignment or a partnered coin. Though this is very rare for us, I think that is what happened in this case as it seems to be ringing a bell. Once a deal like that is consumated to offer a buy back means we now have to stock the coin at the price we buy it back at. If ordering through the mail the deal is not consumated with the consignor/partner until the return privilage has expired. And if I am remembering this at all it seems that it happened a year or more ago.???
-Second and most obvious is that the market dropped or corrected. This has happened a lot in the last few years with metals bouncing around, but even then it is very very rare to get a call back about returning a coin after a show (no one has ever called when the market jumped up! But we have offered customers profit within a day of their purchase!)
-Also at shows we are never against letting a customer ask other dealers/friends for opinions, even though the dealer they ask may have other agendas within the opinion they render. We feel that committing to a deal is committing to a deal, but we do try and work with our customers and appreciate when they try to work with us.
Again thank you to all those leaving us your comments to this thread.
Allen
As far as dealers allowing me to carry coins away from their tables and get a second opinion... My experience is that if they know you, it's not an issue. Heck, one dealer who posts here let me walk out of the show with a 5K+ coin - "Just mail it back if you get home and don't like it". It's an awesome Proof IHC, and I did in fact buy it.
Do trustworthy things, and people tend to trust you
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>Thank you for all the positive feedback in this thread. We appreciate all of the comments as they either tell us what we are doing right, or what we may try to improve on.
The only feed back to address is from bidask.
I am sorry that I do not recall the actual deal, when it transpired, or who you actually are. And having said that I do invite you to email us at info@brokencc.com and I will further explain if I can, but here are some possible reasons for not buying the coin back:
-First and most likely is that the coin was a consignment or a partnered coin. Though this is very rare for us, I think that is what happened in this case as it seems to be ringing a bell. Once a deal like that is consumated to offer a buy back means we now have to stock the coin at the price we buy it back at. If ordering through the mail the deal is not consumated with the consignor/partner until the return privilage has expired. And if I am remembering this at all it seems that it happened a year or more ago.???
-Second and most obvious is that the market dropped or corrected. This has happened a lot in the last few years with metals bouncing around, but even then it is very very rare to get a call back about returning a coin after a show (no one has ever called when the market jumped up! But we have offered customers profit within a day of their purchase!)
-Also at shows we are never against letting a customer ask other dealers/friends for opinions, even though the dealer they ask may have other agendas within the opinion they render. We feel that committing to a deal is committing to a deal, but we do try and work with our customers and appreciate when they try to work with us.
Again thank you to all those leaving us your comments to this thread.
Allen >>
This was a 5 figure coin and had nothing to do with bullion. The market did not drop by 18 to 20% in the day and a half I owned it.
If it was a consignment and there was no return privelage you did not divulge that to me at time of purchase which I bought in person.
I pm'ed you the details of the transaction..................
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Well, I purchased a Liberty Eagle from their booth at the Santa Clara show and they were pretty darn clear about their 3 day return policy. I think they are a class act.
Their broken CC coin was there too. I wonder how that thing got out of the mint in the first place. Must have snapped in two shortly afterwards. >>
I am glad you were offered a 3 day return privelage after buying the coin in person at the Santa Clara show.
I was not treated that way.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>
<< <i>...But I would do it differently with the public buyer. If I were a dealer I would allow a 3 day to five day return policy whether the coin was bought at a show or I sent to someone's home.
Regarding a no return policy at shows for John Q Public to me speaks lack of confidence in one's inventory or predatory pricing by the selling dealer. >>
I have to disagree with you about this. When you bought the coin at the show, you had every opportunity to inspect the coin to make sure that it was acceptable. The fact that you ended up with buyer's remorse does not mean that the dealer is required to give you all of your money back. I'm sure there are dealers who would give you your money back. But that doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with BrokenCC or that they are guilty of "predatory pricing".
Look at it this way... during the period that you had the coin, BrokenCC could not sell it to anyone else. Then, once the show was over, you wanted to give it back to them. Had you not purchased a coin that you did not really want, it is possible that BrokenCC could have sold it to someone else at the show. What you wanted to do would have been an inconvenience to them because your indecisiveness may have cost them a sale to someone who actually wanted the coin. So why should they have given you 100% of your money back? >>
So essentially you are advocating a NO REFUNDS ALL SALES ARE FINAL policy on behalf of dealers towards collectors if a coin is inspected and bought by a collector at a show....
I am not a dealer but if I was I would be happy to give a collector back their money if they changed their minds for any reason ( as long as coin or holder has not been tampered)within 3 to 5 days. It would be no big deal to me and the right thing to do.
A dealer I would be more strict.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I believe that we were fair with him and explained our end in more detail than required to him. Will not post our response here, but if he is still dissatisfied we welcome him to post our PM to him on this thread.
Allen
<< <i>OK everybody PMed bidask in response to his PM.
I believe that we were fair with him and explained our end in more detail than required to him. Will not post our response here, but if he is still dissatisfied we welcome him to post our PM to him on this thread.
Allen >>
I said to you I consider private messages to be private. But since you are inviting me to post your pm message I will do that and my response:
Allen: Date Posted: Apr/17/2008 9:23 PM
Dan,
Now I remember the deal. Aaron sold you the coin, where I don't remember. When you bought it you showed no hesitation or doubt about the quality or price. I believe it was at greysheet bid. The coin was on consignment and the guy we had it from was anxious about it as it was the tail end of a much larger deal we were in. By Saturday night I had relayed to him that the coin was sold and that he had a check on the way(for this and several other coins). We had taken it on consignment because he wanted to get greysheet for it and we had seen that auctions had recently sold one for just south of $10K. When I offered you $10K for it I had already committed to paying him much more than that and did not have another prospect with the coin. I don't think you were overcharged because these coins don't trade often and so their price is harder to establish, but to just buy one outright without a customer is hard to do as there are not many 2 1/2 Lib collectors. I thought you were the guy for that coin and seemed happy to have aquired it. If you would have sold it back to me I may have lost money on the coin, but I did offer you more than a blowout price for it. May be there is no way that you will think we tried to do the right thing, but I believe we did. We are very open and would have explained this to you had you asked at the time, but now that deal is at least a year old if not two years old and there is no way to rectify it in any form. If you want to post my PM response on the message board please feel free.
Allen
My response:
Date Posted: Apr/17/2008 10:09 PM
What is amazing about your response is that it is all about you, your 'larger deal', and your consignors, not about what is right with the customer.
You neither told me of it being on consignment or your return policies. Since it was this stringent and out of the ordianry I should not have to ask, you should volunteer those terms.
That was your mistake.
I bought the coin at greysheet ask. Of course I was happy at the time I bought it but examination under different light caused me to change my mine when at home. My calling you first thing Monday morning was reasonable.
Whats funny is that you think that offering me 10k for a coin I paid 12k a day and half befores is a "MORE THAN A BLOWOUT PRICE".
You really think so?
Who cares if it was 2 years ago or a year ago, there is always a way to rectify a deal if you want too.
You did not want to rectify anything from the gitgo.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>
<< <i>OK everybody PMed bidask in response to his PM.
I believe that we were fair with him and explained our end in more detail than required to him. Will not post our response here, but if he is still dissatisfied we welcome him to post our PM to him on this thread.
Allen >>
I said to you I consider private messages to be private. But since you are inviting me to post your pm message I will do that and my response:
Allen: Date Posted: Apr/17/2008 9:23 PM
Dan,
Now I remember the deal. Aaron sold you the coin, where I don't remember. When you bought it you showed no hesitation or doubt about the quality or price. I believe it was at greysheet bid. The coin was on consignment and the guy we had it from was anxious about it as it was the tail end of a much larger deal we were in. By Saturday night I had relayed to him that the coin was sold and that he had a check on the way(for this and several other coins). We had taken it on consignment because he wanted to get greysheet for it and we had seen that auctions had recently sold one for just south of $10K. When I offered you $10K for it I had already committed to paying him much more than that and did not have another prospect with the coin. I don't think you were overcharged because these coins don't trade often and so their price is harder to establish, but to just buy one outright without a customer is hard to do as there are not many 2 1/2 Lib collectors. I thought you were the guy for that coin and seemed happy to have aquired it. If you would have sold it back to me I may have lost money on the coin, but I did offer you more than a blowout price for it. May be there is no way that you will think we tried to do the right thing, but I believe we did. We are very open and would have explained this to you had you asked at the time, but now that deal is at least a year old if not two years old and there is no way to rectify it in any form. If you want to post my PM response on the message board please feel free.
Allen
My response:
Date Posted: Apr/17/2008 10:09 PM
What is amazing about your response is that it is all about you, your 'larger deal', and your consignors, not about what is right with the customer.
You neither told me of it being on consignment or your return policies. Since it was this stringent and out of the ordianry I should not have to ask, you should volunteer those terms.
That was your mistake.
I bought the coin at greysheet ask. Of course I was happy at the time I bought it but examination under different light caused me to change my mine when at home. My calling you first thing Monday morning was reasonable.
Whats funny is that you think that offering me 10k for a coin I paid 12k a day and half befores is a "MORE THAN A BLOWOUT PRICE".
You really think so?
Who cares if it was 2 years ago or a year ago, there is always a way to rectify a deal if you want too.
You did not want to rectify anything from the gitgo. >>
OK, my opinion. The buyer of the coin continues to be unhappy, but I believe that most of the fault in the unfortunate transaction lay with him. To wit:
1. The coin was bought sight-seen.
2. The coin was not owned by the seller, but consigned. No disclosure to the buyer necessary (as well, see #4)
3. The consigner was paid for his coins by the seller before the buyer asked for a refund.
4. The buyer did not inquire about the sellers return policy (or apparently much else) before purchasing the coin.
5. The seller acted in apparent good faith.
If we take every statement from both parties at face value as truth, the seller would have had to buy back a coin that may have sat in inventory for a long time, or priced at a loss to move quickly, in order to satisfy a unhappy customer. Depending on the perceived long-term value of such a customer, such a move may or may not have been worthwhile. These kinds of business decisions must be made all of the time.
My personal understanding is that my purchase of a coin is final, unless a stated return policy allows me other options.
If I were unhappy with such a transaction in my own life, the majority of my unhappiness would be with myself - especially if I held myself out as an "experienced coin buyer".
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