An imperfectly "original" coin...

MrEureka

I recently bought this at auction. It has perfect original "old-time" toning, but the coin was cleaned more than 129 years ago. (An unnatural underlying sheen gives the coin away, but the deep toning masks it very well and there are no hairlines.) If you collected this series, would the cleaning prevent you from making the purchase?

It was cataloged as follows:

"Scotland. 4 Shillings 6 Pence Token by counterstamp Mc FIE LINDSAY & COy GREENOCK around 4/6 (with S incuse below) on 8 Reales 1791 F.M., Mexico. Bust / Crowned arms between 2 pillars. Allen 92; C./C./T. page 534, type 80, 646 (base coin); Davis 102; K./M. CC 58; Meili 37. Extremely rare Very fine

18 specimens recorded (2 in institutional collections). Ex Fonrobert Coll. 6422, ex Ulex Coll. 122, ex Norweb Coll. part 4, 1636, ex Brand Coll. - Mc Fie, Lindsay & Co were wholesale grocers at 3 William Street, Greenock, and listed there between 1815 and 1828. They were known for having invented and perfected a method of preserving fresh salmon. These countermarked Dollars were withdrawn during August 1828, silver now so plentiful that they are no longer required for the convenience of trade."

BTW, the Fonrobert Collection was sold by Alolph Weyl in Berlin in 1878. The Ulex Collection was sold by Lyman Low in 1902. Both were landmark auctions.

lordmarcovan

GoldenEyeNumismatics

Very cool piece.

Old cleanings don't bother me too much, as long as the piece has retoned, no bad hairlines, and has a good look.

STONE

Heck NO, the cleaning wouldn't prevent me from purchasing any coin with a pop of 18 and 16 in public hands.

NumisOxide

Hey, that's neat.

ricko

It would not affect my decision to buy.... Cheers, RickO

RichieURich

<< <i>Heck NO, the cleaning wouldn't prevent me from purchasing any coin with a pop of 18 and 16 in public hands. >>



Just a few known, and probably many of them have been cleaned. No problem buying it.

coinkat

I think that is a very fair question for which I would need to see the coin in hand to make that determination. I have had acouple British coins that turned out to be huge disappointments because of old time cleanings

PerryHall

It wouldn't surprise me to see that coin getting slabbed but it probably wouldn't qualify for a CAC sticker and that's something that you would just have to learn to live with.

DorkGirl

Would not bother me at all.

BECOKA

As long as there are no harsh hairlines the old cleanings don't bother me in the least. As long as the surface has had time to do its thing and look good after a period of time.

MrEureka

The reverse really bothers me. As to the old time cleaning, how sever is it based on your in hand observation. BTW how strong is your magnification that you are using to determine it if I may ask?


The reverse has a flat area from the application of the obverse countermark. If you collect the series, there's no getting around that.

As for the cleaning, the coin was probably shined up pretty good with a jeweler's rag, or something like that, but there are no deep hairlines from the cleaning. I'll also add that most collectors wouldn't even recognize that the coin had been cleaned, but it is obvious to me.

Finally, I did not use a glass to grade this coin. For a coin of this size, I very rarely do.

IGWT

I think the statute of limitations on improper cleaning has expired in this case. But how do you know that the coin was cleaned before the Fonrobert Collection was sold in 1878 and not after?

MrEureka

But how do you know that the coin was cleaned before the Fonrobert Collection was sold in 1878 and not after?

I could look at the plates in the various catalogs - I have them all - but in this case I'm willing to assume that Ulex, Brand and the Norwebs were not about to shine up this coin. I base that both on their reputations and on all the other coins I've seen from the same collections, which were all extraordinary.

BTW, I'd be willing to bet that Fonrobert was also not guilty of cleaning this coin.

ColonialCoinUnion

Following up on Rich's point, how many of the surviving examples of this issue were not cleaned at some time in their long lives? I suspect it's not very many.

MrEureka

how many of the surviving examples of this issue were not cleaned at some time in their long lives?

I don't know. I also don't know where this piece sits in the condition census.

I would have liked that info before the auction but it's not readily available. Oh, well. Sometimes, you just have to wing it.