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Not a good start for the PQ "sticker".

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  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,781 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I think the CAC stickered coins have a market for collectors who haven't the foggiest notion of what a PQ coin is. >>

    Based on this coin, they'll still be clueless as to what PQ is.

    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • MS 63 or MS64 doesn't matter which is correct, it's NOT pq (and shouldn't have a sticker) because of the spots. Looks like the fox is guarding the hen house.
  • tychojoetychojoe Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭
    The CAC sticker means solid for the grade? I guess it just depends on the meanings of "solid" and "premium".

    From the CAC site:

    "What Separates the Grade from Premium Quality [ -- ] In every field, there are a select few that represent the best of the best. Coins are no exception. Now there's an easy way to identify premium quality coins within any particular grade. Just look for the CAC verification sticker."

    But Rick Snow is right, I think. It's in the consortium's best interest to police itself...

    "The solution is simple - sell it to the CAC market-makers and watch it show up in the next auction without the sticker. I'm sure they'll buy in all their mistakes, as well as all the others they sticker. This is the good thing about this program, IMO. They are labeling the coins they want. Sell it to them.

    [...] This sticker thing IS a market-making scheme. So use it to your advantage."
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I had an email conversation with John Albanese regarding this and other issues. Here is his response regarding this coin:

    this coin brought 5x ms63 bid in 2005 and brought over double bid for an ms64 !!, clearly the market demonstrated that this coin was indeed a pq ms64

    With regard to the 'solid for the grade' vs 'PQ' issue, I reiterate John's stance that because coins in TPG holders can be all over the place quality-wise it's his belief that solid for the grade means PQ these days. He is going to add a link to the website to discuss this issue - but the bottom line is that he is stickering solid for the grade coins as being PQ to the general sight unseen quality that's out there.
  • "this coin brought 5x ms63 bid in 2005 and brought over double bid for an ms64 !!, clearly the market demonstrated that this coin was indeed a pq ms64"

    So it's the price it brought that determines it's stickerability? That's a new blush.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,296 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There are subjective grades and there are objective people. Be objective and understand what subjective means. A coin is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>"this coin brought 5x ms63 bid in 2005 and brought over double bid for an ms64 !!, clearly the market demonstrated that this coin was indeed a pq ms64"

    So it's the price it brought that determines it's stickerability? That's a new blush. >>



    Absent any other info [pics are not a good determination of quality of a mid grade unc coin], wouldn't you agree that price realized in auction is a good indication of how the coin looks in hand?
  • tmot99tmot99 Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>"this coin brought 5x ms63 bid in 2005 and brought over double bid for an ms64 !!, clearly the market demonstrated that this coin was indeed a pq ms64"

    So it's the price it brought that determines it's stickerability? That's a new blush. >>



    Absent any other info [pics are not a good determination of quality of a mid grade unc coin], wouldn't you agree that price realized in auction is a good indication of how the coin looks in hand? >>



    Not at all. There are plenty of biodiots out there. And price certainly shouldn't be used to determine grade by ANY grading company.

    Edited to add: The reverse logic could be used that when you get a rip, say you bought a 65 trade dollar at 63 money, the coin must only be a 63.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    And price certainly shouldn't be used to determine grade by ANY grading company.

    Who said it was? Oh, yeah - pharmer. image
  • mgoodm3mgoodm3 Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭
    I gotta agree with tmot on this one.

    Basically you're saying that JA determined the coin to be PQ because unknown bidders bid the coin up.

    If I am getting a CAC opinion, I want CAC's opinion not an unknown bidders.
    coinimaging.com/my photography articles Check out the new macro lens testing section


  • << <i>"this coin brought 5x ms63 bid in 2005 and brought over double bid for an ms64 !!, clearly the market demonstrated that this coin was indeed a pq ms64"

    So it's the price it brought that determines it's stickerability? That's a new blush. >>



    That's his quote that YOU suppliedimage
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image
  • it's his belief that solid for the grade means PQ these days

    Couldn't it be argued that such a stance is simply another form of gradeflation? I know there's a lot of junk out there, but now if a coin is what it's supposed to be, it's really P.Q.? Certainly JA is a lot smarter than I am so I'm probably missing something but what's wrong with just calling a spade a spade?
  • fcfc Posts: 12,793 ✭✭✭
    +1
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Basically you're saying that JA determined the coin to be PQ because unknown bidders bid the coin up.

    If I am getting a CAC opinion, I want CAC's opinion not an unknown bidders. >>



    That was my first thought, but upon further reflection I concluded that the statement simply means that the market agrees with CAC's determination, not that they made that determination based on the auction results.

    Russ, NCNE
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,781 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I had an email conversation with John Albanese regarding this and other issues. Here is his response regarding this coin:

    this coin brought 5x ms63 bid in 2005 and brought over double bid for an ms64 !!, clearly the market demonstrated that this coin was indeed a pq ms64 >>

    Where on earth is he getting 5X??? This coin sold for $3,737.50 in 2005 (check the Heritage auction). Current Coin World Trends is $4500, Numismedia retail is $3,660, and PCGS Price Guide is $3,500. And according to my records, the PCGS Price guide in 2004 for this date in 63 was $3900 so the value of this date/grade has been decreasing over the years.

    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • IGWTIGWT Posts: 4,975
    -- That was my first thought, but upon further reflection I concluded that the statement simply means that the market agrees with CAC's determination, not that they made that determination based on the auction results. --


    Right. I'm assuming that the coin passed muster without CAC's knowledge or consideration of its market history. Edited to add Russ's quote.
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,781 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I had an email conversation with John Albanese regarding this and other issues. Here is his response regarding this coin:

    this coin brought 5x ms63 bid in 2005 and brought over double bid for an ms64 !!, clearly the market demonstrated that this coin was indeed a pq ms64 >>

    >>

    Although I have no idea how much "bid in 2005" was, let's assume the coin bid for $1,500 in 63 back in 2005 (less than half retail at the time), that would mean the coin sold for $7,500? And it then upgrades to a coin that RETAILS for $5,000 - $6,000? That makes no sense at all.


    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • a039a039 Posts: 1,546


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>I had an email conversation with John Albanese regarding this and other issues. Here is his response regarding this coin:

    this coin brought 5x ms63 bid in 2005 and brought over double bid for an ms64 !!, clearly the market demonstrated that this coin was indeed a pq ms64 >>

    >>

    Although I have no idea how much "bid in 2005" was, let's assume the coin bid for $1,500 in 63 back in 2005 (less than half retail at the time), that would mean the coin sold for $7,500? And it then upgrades to a coin that RETAILS for $5,000 - $6,000? That makes no sense at all. >>




    JA's secretary "John, Bruce is on the phone again!" image
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,869 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I still say that grading buffalo nickels is like throwing darts.

    this coin brought 5x ms63 bid in 2005 and brought over double bid for an ms64 !!, clearly the market demonstrated that this coin was indeed a pq ms64

    If these types of comments don't illustrate why grading and pricing shouldn't be done by the same company, please take me out back and shoot me.



    Basically you're saying that JA determined the coin to be PQ because unknown bidders bid the coin up.

    If I am getting a CAC opinion, I want CAC's opinion not an unknown bidders.


    That was my first thought, but upon further reflection I concluded that the statement simply means that the market agrees with CAC's determination, not that they made that determination based on the auction results.


    The "market" is a cohesive group of coin marketers, who are dictating prices based on unpublished data for a coin that changes grades depending upon who owns it. Same old story, it seems.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,781 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Absent any other info [pics are not a good determination of quality of a mid grade unc coin], wouldn't you agree that price realized in auction is a good indication of how the coin looks in hand? >>

    In general, I would. And considering it sold back in 2005 for $900 LESS than the PCGS MS63 that sold four months earlier in MS63, I'd say the buyers saw the same thing that I saw, that the coin was mearly a typical MS63 and not a PQ MS64.

    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • BlindedByEgoBlindedByEgo Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't care much for the coin, at least from the photos.
  • Well, just got the equipment in and I can start my own stickering firm now. Here is one of the workers that is collecting the material for the stickers.

    image
    This is a very dumb ass thread. - Laura Sperber - Tuesday January 09, 2007 11:16 AM image

    Hell, I don't need to exercise.....I get enough just pushing my luck.
  • If this gets nuked for some reason, Shamika's thread ATS is going strong, although someone there seems pretty touchy about the issue.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image
  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,383 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>"this coin brought 5x ms63 bid in 2005 and brought over double bid for an ms64 !!, clearly the market demonstrated that this coin was indeed a pq ms64"

    So it's the price it brought that determines it's stickerability? That's a new blush. >>



    Absent any other info [pics are not a good determination of quality of a mid grade unc coin], wouldn't you agree that price realized in auction is a good indication of how the coin looks in hand? >>



    No! Could be 2 bidiots who want a coin for the registry/plastic. I think, and Bruce, you know I haven't been tearing at the CAC so it isn't like I have an agenda, that to be stickered, and have it mean anything, the coin needs to be seen sight in-hand and evaluated visually.
    To do so by auction prices demeans it and it shows desperation and a problem with the whole stickering campaign.

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • LongacreLongacre Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
    I don't think you can read into that quote that price was used to determine stickerability.
    Always took candy from strangers
    Didn't wanna get me no trade
    Never want to be like papa
    Working for the boss every night and day
    --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,781 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>If this gets nuked for some reason, Shamika's thread ATS is going strong, although someone there seems pretty touchy about the issue. >>

    Dang, I can't remember my freak'n password for ATS. If I could, I'd add the post debunking the "this coin brought 5x ms63 bid in 2005 and brought over double bid for an ms64 !!" which seems to be a big issue justifying the PQ'ness of this coin.





    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • Here's the link for the 2007 Heritage sale after the upgrade:

    2007 Heritage sale as MS64
    Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.

    “It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
    Newmismatist


  • << <i>

    << <i>If this gets nuked for some reason, Shamika's thread ATS is going strong, although someone there seems pretty touchy about the issue. >>

    Dang, I can't remember my freak'n password for ATS. If I could, I'd add the post debunking the "this coin brought 5x ms63 bid in 2005 and brought over double bid for an ms64 !!" which seems to be a big issue justifying the PQ'ness of this coin. >>



    They're sorta ganging up on that physics guy, but he's holding his own.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image
  • gyocomgdgyocomgd Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭
    Great thread. Shamika, you're right--that coin is 63, not 64.
    image
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,781 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Here's the link for the 2007 Heritage sale after the upgrade:

    2007 Heritage sale as MS64 >>

    Interesting, looks like it sold for $500 BELOW the 18 month average for this coin in this grade. To me, this suggests the market is saying the coin is not PQ.

    And how does it stack up against the other MS64's Heritage references in the sale? On the very low end in my opinion.

    Although I can believe the coin is a 63 as PCGS originally graded it, I really don't have a big problem with PCGS now grading the coin a 64 after resubmission. But to call it PQ is incorrect and not supported by any auction prices that I see.





    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!


  • << <i>I had an email conversation with John Albanese regarding this and other issues. Here is his response regarding this coin:

    this coin brought 5x ms63 bid in 2005 and brought over double bid for an ms64 !!, clearly the market demonstrated that this coin was indeed a pq ms64

    With regard to the 'solid for the grade' vs 'PQ' issue, I reiterate John's stance that because coins in TPG holders can be all over the place quality-wise it's his belief that solid for the grade means PQ these days. He is going to add a link to the website to discuss this issue - but the bottom line is that he is stickering solid for the grade coins as being PQ to the general sight unseen quality that's out there. >>



    Was he wearing chest waders?? What a line of BS!!!image
  • ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 12,868 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I had an email conversation with John Albanese regarding this and other issues. Here is his response regarding this coin:

    this coin brought 5x ms63 bid in 2005 and brought over double bid for an ms64 !!, clearly the market demonstrated that this coin was indeed a pq ms64

    With regard to the 'solid for the grade' vs 'PQ' issue, I reiterate John's stance that because coins in TPG holders can be all over the place quality-wise it's his belief that solid for the grade means PQ these days. He is going to add a link to the website to discuss this issue - but the bottom line is that he is stickering solid for the grade coins as being PQ to the general sight unseen quality that's out there. >>



    This is very misleading, or at the least very confusing. The "other Albanese" appears to be hyping these as "PQ for the grade" which, for the most part, they are not.
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,781 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I had an email conversation with John Albanese regarding this and other issues. Here is his response regarding this coin:

    this coin brought 5x ms63 bid in 2005 and brought over double bid for an ms64 !!, clearly the market demonstrated that this coin was indeed a pq ms64

    With regard to the 'solid for the grade' vs 'PQ' issue, I reiterate John's stance that because coins in TPG holders can be all over the place quality-wise it's his belief that solid for the grade means PQ these days. He is going to add a link to the website to discuss this issue - but the bottom line is that he is stickering solid for the grade coins as being PQ to the general sight unseen quality that's out there. >>



    This is very misleading, or at the least very confusing. The "other Albanese" appears to be hyping these as "PQ for the grade" which, for the most part, they are not. >>



    Actually, they are BOTH are hyping these coins as PQ for the grade. Albanese Rare Coins states right in their listing "CAC stickered for premium quality" while CAC states on their website "(we) will only award our sticker to those coins that meet our standards for premium quality".

    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • dohdoh Posts: 6,457 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Unfortunately, the coin is barely a 63 in my opinion. >>


    Agreed, it's an ugly coin. CAC or not I wouldn't touch it....much like I wouldn't touch anything else in Albanese's inventory.
    Positive BST transactions with: too many names to list! 36 at last count.
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,781 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>CAC or not I wouldn't touch it....much like I wouldn't touch anything else in Albanese's inventory. >>

    Albanese is okay in my book, I just don't care for this coin.



    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • mgoodm3mgoodm3 Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭
    Albanese rare coin and JA are not the same.
    coinimaging.com/my photography articles Check out the new macro lens testing section
  • coinpicturescoinpictures Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭
    Well now that CAC stickered coins are making their way into the market, we're finally getting confirmation that this program is simply another method to separate sheeple from their money, nothing more.

    I predict that ultimately, assuming this venture even stays alive, that CAC stickers will elicit a collective shrug from dealers.

    Seller: "It has a CAC sticker, therefore it's primo!"

    Dealer: "So what. I offer greysheet bid."
  • Wolf359Wolf359 Posts: 7,657 ✭✭✭
    They can always claim it traded internally among dealers at 5x and 2x.

    The CAC sticker is clearly a racket, promoted by the same people selling coins. Too much
    conflict of interest, and if the market accepted the CAC sticker then counterfeiting would begin.
    At the Baltimore Show, the only ones I saw using the sticker were Legend, their case was
    filled with stickered PCGS coins.
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,296 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>+1 >>



    fc, that is one of the most positive things I've seen you type around here image
  • goose3goose3 Posts: 11,471 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I had an email conversation with John Albanese regarding this and other issues. Here is his response regarding this coin:

    this coin brought 5x ms63 bid in 2005 and brought over double bid for an ms64 !!, clearly the market demonstrated that this coin was indeed a pq ms64

    With regard to the 'solid for the grade' vs 'PQ' issue, I reiterate John's stance that because coins in TPG holders can be all over the place quality-wise it's his belief that solid for the grade means PQ these days. He is going to add a link to the website to discuss this issue - but the bottom line is that he is stickering solid for the grade coins as being PQ to the general sight unseen quality that's out there. >>



    Was he wearing chest waders?? What a line of BS!!!image >>



    image I almost had to go purchase a pair simply to read that.

    You gotta love "Spin".
  • goose3goose3 Posts: 11,471 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Great thread. Shamika, you're right--that coin is 63, not 64. >>




    but Guy, it's stickered!!!!image

    sometimes I really love this place. Today is one of those days.


  • << <i>I had an email conversation with John Albanese regarding this and other issues. Here is his response regarding this coin:

    this coin brought 5x ms63 bid in 2005 and brought over double bid for an ms64 !!, clearly the market demonstrated that this coin was indeed a pq ms64 >>



    The market demonstrated the grade of the coin based on the bids it was receiving? That's pretty much exactly what that quote is saying. This doesn't make much sense. There are plenty of examples of coins going for considerable over sheet for various reasons, so based on this quote, those coins then must be worthy of higher grades?

    Maybe I'm interpreting that wrong, and if so, please enlighten me as to what that quote is really supposed to mean.

    Edit for clarity.





    image
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,152 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>At the Baltimore Show, the only ones I saw using the sticker were Legend, their case was
    filled with stickered PCGS coins. >>



    Did they have any raw slabs? If so, how did they look? I would be suspicious of any raw slabs that any dealer who specializes in CAC stickered slabs might have in his case.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • dohdoh Posts: 6,457 ✭✭✭
    The CAC sticker is clearly a racket, promoted by the same people selling coins. Too much conflict of interest.
    Bingo.
    Positive BST transactions with: too many names to list! 36 at last count.
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,781 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I had an email conversation with John Albanese regarding this and other issues. Here is his response regarding this coin:

    this coin brought 5x ms63 bid in 2005 and brought over double bid for an ms64 !!, clearly the market demonstrated that this coin was indeed a pq ms64 >>



    The market demonstrated the grade of the coin based on the bids it was receiving? That's pretty much exactly what that quote is saying. This doesn't make much sense. >>

    There's no evidence that "this coin brought 5x ms63 bid in 2005 and brought over double bid for an ms64" is even true. Auction records in 2005 when this coin sold as a 63 and earlier this year when this coin sold as a 64 debunk this statement.




    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • TexastTexast Posts: 1,899 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The CAC sticker is clearly a racket, promoted by the same people selling coins. Too much conflict of interest. >>



    Worse than that, it is a way of starting a grading company on the cheap where most of the work has been done, grading, authentication, encapsulation, branding etc.., all they have to do is slap a sticker on it, charge more than the original grading company and sell it for more. I have more respect for SGS than CAC!
    On BS&T Now: Nothing.
    Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
    Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,869 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This guy ATS has a new admirerer - me. physics-fan3.14 is saying it better than I've been able to express it:

    Sure. There are two important things that ticked me off. (certain abbreviations have been redacted):

    1. It's his belief that solid for the grade means PQ.

    To me, this sounds like gradeflation. Solid for the grade means it should be middle of the road - a standard MS64. PQ to me means the upper range of the grade, a 64/65 coin that might have something that tipped the balance towards 64. Yes, the holders are all over the place. But there should be a set of standards, and that was the whole point of the XXX. If you start saying that the solid MS64s are actually PQ, almost 65, then you are inflating things. If you then get an actual PQ 64, you are far more likely to inflate that to 65. And I really don't see how saying that the holders are all over the place implies that solid for the grade actually means PQ.

    2. this coin brought 5x ms63 bid in 2005 and brought over double bid for an ms64 !!, clearly the market demonstrated that this coin was indeed a pq ms64

    This is market grading! I am against market grading. If the coin is an MS-63 against a certain set of standards, then it should be an MS-63 no matter what price it brings. Yes, it might have nice eye appeal. Yes, it might bring 64 or 65 money, but if according to the set of standards it is MS-63, that shouldn't change based on how much some person is willing to pay for it.

    According to what TDN said that Albanese said, he stickered the coin because it brought alot more money than it should have. Thus it must be PQ. There is no set of standards involved here, there is no criteria for establishing what is PQ besides the fact that some collector was willing to pay more for it. To me, this is completely arbitrary and not something worth investing time or money in. There might have been alot of advertising for the auction it was sold in, there might have been some crazy guy that wanted it, there are a whole lot of reasons why it could have sold for more than it should have besides just being PQ. What happens if a truly PQ coin sells for less than it should have? Is this coin thus not worthy of the sticker?

    Thus, I have made up my mind that the XXX is not all that it is cracked up to be. Please, discuss, and tell me what you think.


    There sure is alot of mincing of words and sidestepping going on over there in response to physics-fan. Kinda like "that depends on what the definition of "is" is.image
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • goose3goose3 Posts: 11,471 ✭✭✭
    image

    I DID NOT STICKER THAT COIN!
  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,691 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Well, just got the equipment in and I can start my own stickering firm now. Here is one of the workers that is collecting the material for the stickers.

    image >>

    absofreakinlutely HILARIOUS!!! FUNNIEST PICTURE ON THE BOARD IN MONTHS!!!



    << <i>Absent any other info [pics are not a good determination of quality of a mid grade unc coin], wouldn't you agree that price realized in auction is a good indication of how the coin looks in hand? >>

    i am flat-out stupefied by the absurdity of this statement. shockingly absurd.... i'm so flabbergasted i can't figure out what kind of analogy could be used to show the inane shallowness of that statement.

    this is a great thread!

    K S
  • commoncents05commoncents05 Posts: 10,085 ✭✭✭
    100

    -Paul
    Many Quality coins for sale at http://www.CommonCentsRareCoins.com

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