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Arod salary and greed, the truth about Ichiro, knee pads for Pujols fans...
Hoopster
Posts: 1,169
in Sports Talk
I wish people would get off of their knees in regards to Pujols and his 'cleanliness', and espcially Ichiro and his perceieved greatness.
Ichiro is the most overrated player in the history of the game. People look at his average and then say he is one of the best hitters in the league. They are flat out wrong....unless they consider being the 33rd best in the league(AL only) as one of the best hitters. But most annoint him top five or something. They say, oooh look at all those hits. Well he bats 690 times a freakin year, makes tons of outs, and hits mostly slap singles. The guy has finished in the top ten in OUTS MADE six times in the PRIME YEARS of his career. That is very poor....very poor, and is not indicivitve of greatness.
His best finish in a true hitting measurement is ninth in the AL...whoopie. He ranked ninth in adjusted batter runs in 2004. He has never been close to being at the top of the best hitters. Contrast that to true NON POWER HITTING GREATS like Boggs or Carew. Those guys have spent time as the BEST hitter in MLB in years. Ichiro can only dream to be an elite player.
Yeah he has good men on base numbers, but that bonus is offset with the fact that many of his singles are of the infield variety, or shallow outfield. What does that mean? It means they don't advance base runners as much as traditioanl outfield singles. So in his adjusted batter runs, his value is actually lower because that doesn't take that into account.
I'd rather have Bill Madlock.
And Pujols? I just cannot wait when the steroid garbage comes out on him! He turned his pear shaped fat boy body into a machine. Maybe people can then wipe the semen off of their mouths when reality comes calling on him.
Arod is greedy! The clutch argument is silly and ignorant and has been shown to be ad nauseum. It gives neanderthals an angle to put themselves on par with him and make themselves feel better about themselves. Or in most Yankee fan's case, a chance to vent frustration. I will admit it, I am extemely jealous of him. I have pointed out greedy flaws of his, but that is because it isn't me getting the money. But I'm not going to go around blowing others like I see fans do all the time when those guys are just as greedy and have flaws too...and the clutch...again, read and learn a little more.
As for salary and greed. Arod is no different then any other MLB player. TURK WENDELL is the only MLB player I say is different in the greed factor!
From 1996-2000 Arod's average salary was appx 2.5 million per year. In 1996 he made $400k a year, and was the best player in MLB that year. If he was truly more greedy than every other player, then he would have demanded more money pre free agent years, instead he got paid 2.5 million a year to be a stud shortstop for FIVE YEARS!! He could have cried and moaned and signed one of those 'Cleveland extensions' to get more what he was getting. He chose instead to wait for payday his free agent year. He certainly earned that right...almost in the same way Michael Jordan did with his salary workings! And before the fools come out, I know he isn't MJ!
Ichiro came to MLB making 5 million a year...a bit greedy I would say for a guy who never saw a MLB pitch. Pujols was making 11 million by his fifth season, and that is pre free agency. Arod was making 4 million a year in his seventh season, and that was after setting the baseball world on fire for FIVE SEASONS!
In 2000 Derek Jeter was getting paid 10 million a year, pre free agency, compared to Arod's 4 million the same year. Arod was underpaid in his pre free agency seasons when compared to other stars in MLB. He waited and hit payday when he became a free agent, big deal. Get over it.
He will be overpaid by the end of this contract. Smart money for the Yanks to spend? Dumb if it costs them Johan Santana. If they can afford both, then it matters none what they chose to pay him.
Ichiro is the most overrated player in the history of the game. People look at his average and then say he is one of the best hitters in the league. They are flat out wrong....unless they consider being the 33rd best in the league(AL only) as one of the best hitters. But most annoint him top five or something. They say, oooh look at all those hits. Well he bats 690 times a freakin year, makes tons of outs, and hits mostly slap singles. The guy has finished in the top ten in OUTS MADE six times in the PRIME YEARS of his career. That is very poor....very poor, and is not indicivitve of greatness.
His best finish in a true hitting measurement is ninth in the AL...whoopie. He ranked ninth in adjusted batter runs in 2004. He has never been close to being at the top of the best hitters. Contrast that to true NON POWER HITTING GREATS like Boggs or Carew. Those guys have spent time as the BEST hitter in MLB in years. Ichiro can only dream to be an elite player.
Yeah he has good men on base numbers, but that bonus is offset with the fact that many of his singles are of the infield variety, or shallow outfield. What does that mean? It means they don't advance base runners as much as traditioanl outfield singles. So in his adjusted batter runs, his value is actually lower because that doesn't take that into account.
I'd rather have Bill Madlock.
And Pujols? I just cannot wait when the steroid garbage comes out on him! He turned his pear shaped fat boy body into a machine. Maybe people can then wipe the semen off of their mouths when reality comes calling on him.
Arod is greedy! The clutch argument is silly and ignorant and has been shown to be ad nauseum. It gives neanderthals an angle to put themselves on par with him and make themselves feel better about themselves. Or in most Yankee fan's case, a chance to vent frustration. I will admit it, I am extemely jealous of him. I have pointed out greedy flaws of his, but that is because it isn't me getting the money. But I'm not going to go around blowing others like I see fans do all the time when those guys are just as greedy and have flaws too...and the clutch...again, read and learn a little more.
As for salary and greed. Arod is no different then any other MLB player. TURK WENDELL is the only MLB player I say is different in the greed factor!
From 1996-2000 Arod's average salary was appx 2.5 million per year. In 1996 he made $400k a year, and was the best player in MLB that year. If he was truly more greedy than every other player, then he would have demanded more money pre free agent years, instead he got paid 2.5 million a year to be a stud shortstop for FIVE YEARS!! He could have cried and moaned and signed one of those 'Cleveland extensions' to get more what he was getting. He chose instead to wait for payday his free agent year. He certainly earned that right...almost in the same way Michael Jordan did with his salary workings! And before the fools come out, I know he isn't MJ!
Ichiro came to MLB making 5 million a year...a bit greedy I would say for a guy who never saw a MLB pitch. Pujols was making 11 million by his fifth season, and that is pre free agency. Arod was making 4 million a year in his seventh season, and that was after setting the baseball world on fire for FIVE SEASONS!
In 2000 Derek Jeter was getting paid 10 million a year, pre free agency, compared to Arod's 4 million the same year. Arod was underpaid in his pre free agency seasons when compared to other stars in MLB. He waited and hit payday when he became a free agent, big deal. Get over it.
He will be overpaid by the end of this contract. Smart money for the Yanks to spend? Dumb if it costs them Johan Santana. If they can afford both, then it matters none what they chose to pay him.
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I cannot comment on Pujols since I don't know much about him. However, regarding Ichiro..... I know he gets a lot of hits, but that in it of it self does not tell the whole story. He really does not make it on base as often as one might think. He is no where near Wade Boggs, Frank Thomas, Derek Jeter or Rickey Henderson as far as getting on base is concerned. On Base Percentage is a more important stat than total amount of singles hit. Ichiro has to hit .350 if he is going to be considered anywhere near elite player. Henderson could hit .250 but still finish in the top 10 in league as far as On Base Percentage goes.
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Almost every baseball player that looks fit is under suspicision -- for example Manny Ramirez is very strong, but everyone knows he works out like a fiend, so hopefully he has not had any artificial "help".
However, nobody suspects Big Papi because he still has a sizable gut!
As for the other guys...I have no comment except that I enjoy watching them.
All kidding aside, you made some good points.
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
You can't circumvent the word filter, but you can say "wipe the semen off of their mouths?"
I'd rather see the F word misspelled than a commment as tasteless as that (no pun intended)
Pujols has yet to test positive for drugs. His muscle is not out of line with a professional athlete. Like every one else in the world, he may or may not be a drug user. To try and guess if he is or not is insulting and stupid
I agree with your take on Ichiro, has been and will always be a slap singles hitter, yawn.
I know that Pujols is no angel, but we will have to see about the roid rage.
While I don't disagree with your take on ichiro, it goes without saying, those who have the most AB's are probably going to make the most outs. The Pujols comments and unnecessary slander of his fans is unproven off base garbage. When it comes to ARod, he who is at the top of the mountain - most people are going to try and knock off so they can stand tall. If someone offered me an annual salary of $25,000,000 (that's 6 zero's) I'd only have one question: where do I sign?
Not sure if you knew this - but did you know that the player in your icon has the lowest BA among all players with 3,000 or more hits? Any thoughts on that?
<< <i>Arod was underpaid in his pre free agency seasons when compared to other stars in MLB. >>
That was his agent's fault, Scott Bora$$.
Ichiro certainly isn't the most productive hitter in MLB, but of course he makes more outs than most, as he goes to bat more than anyone else, as was pointed out. Nothing special there.
I also agree that the explicit homosexual references are quite creepy, too. Hmmm....
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
Toppsgun is right, Ichiro is a better player than Madlock...not a better hitter though
I know the dude makes a lot of outs because he bats so often, but it is the fact that he makes so many outs, and basically has only singles to show for it. Can somebody please tell the little man that it is o.k. to hit doubles! Have you ever seen a guy make contact that often, with that speed, and only get 30 doubles one time? He hits the softest .330 ever. He is actually not that much better than Bret Butler.
Ichiro's best four seasons in batter runs is 100.1 , Butler's is 99.5. Their primes are neck and neck.
He stole an MVP in 2001. Heck, Bret Boone was probably the best player on Ichiro's own team that year.
I salute Boggs and Carew. Seattle can keep Ichiro's high batting average, insane amount of outs, and infield singles that don't advance runners.
I'm just tired of him being called an all time great based on his hit totals and batting average. They don't win as many games as people think.
He still has Alvin Davis to pass among the pecking leaders of the mighty Mariner hitters before a thought of all time great even comes to mind .
I will give him a break though, after all his perceived brilliance, and a grueling 4,700 at bats, he has finally been able to eclipse Ken Phelps on that list.
It is just going to be sickening when he makes the HOF while guys like Bobby Grich or Ken Singleton or Reggie Smith(or 50 other better players)don't even get a second thought.
If I am Dwight Evans and I see a guy from the same position who is vastly inferior make the Hall of Fame, I may as well bend myself over the couch, invite the good senator over for a vaseline party, and just say the heck with it, because I will have already been @&!#!@
It is ok to have different opinions and perspectives and it would go a long way toward you gaining respect if you state them in what I would call a professional manner. Your attempt at making your points of view are classless and not worthy of any further discussion. I am sure that you are just trying to call attention to yourself.
Collect primarily 1959-1963 Topps Baseball
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Other rightfielders like Bobby Bonds and Dave Parker had to simply not abuse alcohol and cocaine and they would have made the Hall-of-Fame. Ichiro swings at everything and can't hit the ball out of the infield, he has to do nearly everything else perfectly in everyway in order to help his team. In some ways doing all those things is refreshing
(Most definietly a joke of an MVP in 2001. Giambi had a .470 obp. Bret Boone had a 110:40 K:BB ratio in 2001 yet nearly doubled his homerun totals in a tougher park. So if anyone wants to play the steroid guessing game. . . )
Forget career wise for a moment. Ichiro is being praised as a Hall of Famer, and that is based on his prime seasons of what he has done. The primary basis for that lofty ranking is his hit totals and high batting average. The fact is, his offense isn't nearly as good as his backers think it is. In fact, it isn't as good as Alvin Davis's. He is an all star type player, not Hall of Famer or immortal as is forced down our throats.
Mariner, it isnt' opinion, it is reality. Those words were offensive? Lighten up Francis.
Fandango, no biggie...just having some fun...I've been on the boards for quite some time.
Sir, you are an idiot. Pure and simple.
Dave
I have forgotten more about baseball than you will ever know, moron. If you are calling me an idiot because you are offended for the vaseline party stuff, then fine. But if it is because you don't understand what I am saying about Ichiro, then you should probably educate yourself a little more, and get out of the first grade analyst level.
I can be faulted on using the term overrated, as that only means something if there is a ranking being applied. But I did sort of clarify that in the beginning. Many Seattle dopes or baseball morons proclaim Ichiro as a top five hitter in baseball, or even a best hitter. They cite the hit totals and the high average...mainly because they don't know any better. Maybe they should learn?
Dave99F, if you need some lessons, give me a little more background so I know if we need to start with clay or crayons.
<< <i>Hoopster.....
It is ok to have different opinions and perspectives and it would go a long way toward you gaining respect if you state them in what I would call a professional manner. Your attempt at making your points of view are classless and not worthy of any further discussion. I am sure that you are just trying to call attention to yourself. >>
His alias may have changed but his holier-than-thou attitude remains the same.
p.s. Ichiro is the absolute best slap singles hitter in the known universe. but he is far from a complete hitter, the 30 doubles is mind boggling, he should have 50 with his speed. I love his defense, but i do think he is overrated.
There really wasn't any holier than now attitude up until I responded to the dope.
There really wasn't much that was a matter of opinion regarding Ichiro. Of course, as typical, a homer Ichiro fan will disregard the facts and continue to worship his hero. When reality is presented to the bias, they simply pull out the "different opinion" card. It is a convenient way to go on with life and their hero unscathed.
The alias changed from some snafu when I changed some of my account info.
<< <i>Stown,
There really wasn't any holier than now attitude up until I responded to the dope. >>
You are flat out wrong... [edited because I won't sink to his level
If you believe it to be holier than now, so be it.
If you believe the truth to be holier than now, so be it.
<< <i>The guy has finished in the top ten in OUTS MADE six times in the PRIME YEARS of his career. That is very poor....very poor, and is not indicivitve of greatness. >>
If you want to compare total out percentage, Ichiro's in pretty good company...
"outs" / "plate apperances" = "outs percentage"
Pete Rose = 65.1% (13 top-10 "outs" finishes, All Time OUTS leader)
Derek Jeter = 64.3% (5 top-10 "outs" finishes)
Ichiro = 64.2% (6 top-10 "outs" finishes)
Just for comparason, Ichiro has a lower "outs percentage' than Tony Gwynn and Rod Carew.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>Stown,
If you believe the truth to be holier than now, so be it. >>
Since when is an opinion the truth?
It's the truth that a player is the most overrated in the history of the game because you said so?
It's the truth that fans of Pujols are poo-stickers?
It's the truth that if someone has a different perspective of yours, they are neanderthals?
: eye roll :
The number of outs he makes is the cost. The number of the various offensive events are the benefits. When they are properly weighed, you get the batter runs. Ichiro's Batter Runs are good, but they are not nearly as equal to the praise he gets as being called the best hitter. He also has not gone through any old man years yet where all of his percentages will be dragged down(like most HOFers who play a long time).
If you want to talk company for Ichiro, he is in the company of the players who have NEVER had a season where they finished in the top TWENTY in MLB in hitting. In 2004 he finished no better than the 20th best hitter...I stopped counting after finding 20 better hitters, as there are others ahead of him as well. 2001 is the next closest season. There are three seasons where he is buried...one of which he was just above average.
Those rankings are hardly in line with anybody that is called best hitter or praised as often for his high hit totals and batting average. The reason why the outs are so important for him(anyone of course) is that he makes so darn many(in the Prime of his career and not the old man years like others), but he has only infield singles to show for it. As a result, his hitting is good, but not near HOF caliber.
Tony Gwynn, Rod Carew, and Pete Rose are NOT in that company in the least! Rod Carew spent one two year span as the absolute best hitter on the planet!! Please don't insult their ability by putting Ichiro in any 'company' with them....and please understand why and what I mean by the outs made aspect. Even Derek Jeter(who is a SS, so he gets a little more value) had a top five hitting MLB season in 1999.
And Stown, that is NOT opinion. It is how many runs he was worth with the bat. Opinions are for Ketchup or Mustard, not how many runs a batter makes. They are neanderthals if they cannot see the reality of what has occured, or past their bias.
A neanderthal will read the above, and still not comprehend, or simply pull the 'opinion card' because they can't handle where he truly stacks. Or because they think "hitting" simply means batting average(which is a big part of the problem!!).
Stown, come on...the stuff I said about the Pujols backers is fooling around. They don't literally do that...come on already.
Thanks Hoopster---Rod Carew and his 7 Silver Bats. Out.
<< <i>And Stown, that is NOT opinion. It is how many runs he was worth with the bat. Opinions are for Ketchup or Mustard, not how many runs a batter makes. They are neanderthals if they cannot see the reality of what has occured, or past their bias.
A neanderthal will read the above, and still not comprehend, or simply pull the 'opinion card' because they can't handle where he truly stacks. Or because they think "hitting" simply means batting average(which is a big part of the problem!!).
Stown, come on...the stuff I said about the Pujols backers is fooling around. They don't literally do that...come on already. >>
Crud, I had a whole thing typed out and accidently hit the back button, which erased everything. I actually spent a lot of time on it and almost proud of myself. Unfortunately, this will be the condensed version.
Saying a player is the most overrated is an opinion, not a fact.
The statistics and rankings you provide are calculated based upon weighted variables. Your numbers may be correct but that doesn't make them facts. I can play with numbers all day and get different rankings every time, it just depends which factors a place a heavier emphasis on.
I'm sure most comprehend with your opinions, they just don't agree with you. Calling them neanderthals is akin to calling you a nerd. See how productive that is?
As for the multiple homosexual references, I'm done because it's not appropriate.
Dang, really wish I still had my first post because it was really good and stuff
And while "most overrated" is a title open to multiple interpretations, if Ichiro isn't in your top five for the crown then we all need to have along talk about what "overrated" means.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I would love to see you play with those play by play numbers and come up with any valid finding different than what has already been proven.
Those numbers are played with all the time, and people still find things to move the numbers a little bit...but they are only being moved by like 1 or 2 percent.
If you insist on calling those numbers opinion, then it is the most well formulated, valid opinion you can have. Contrast that with your ignorant comments and opinions, then it is easy to conclude that what you say isn't worth much. However, all you seem to say is that I am arrogant, yet you didn't put your 'opinion' out much.
Like Dallas said, saying most overrated can be a wild interpretation, but Stown I did clarify that a bit in the opening rant. I said that he is the most overrated. I said...
"Ichiro is the most overrated player in the history of the game. People look at his average and then say he is one of the best hitters in the league. They are flat out wrong....unless they consider being the 33rd best in the league(AL only) as one of the best hitters."
So I did give a range of 33rd best in the AL. I estimated that from him ranging from 9th best at his best, to 80ish best at his worst year. I can't guarantee that number, as it was part of a rant to show a point. It isn't going to be too far off though, but it makes the point.
I have no way of knowing how most would rank others, and how far off they would be to say conclusively that he is the most overrated. I already know most fans are completely ignorant of most, so I guess it is a stretch to say most overrated based on past ignorance viewed.
If you want to add Nerd to my personality, I will take it gladly. I like a lot of things that people would consider "nerdy", including collecting cards. I also like and do many other things that people would consider 'cool'. Who cares. The fact is, I don't care what you think is nerdy or not. I just care that the ignorance is loud, and it hurts my ears.
Grote, FYI, I have never had a problem working with others in any realm....whether as a kid, a classmate, a teammate, or in the workplace. I have strife with the wife here or there, but who doesn't.
The stuff you see as coming off arrogant is from a lifetime of listening to the misinformed and biased. Those people don't seem to listen to reason, logic, and fact, so I guess I come down to their level and argue with them. It gets the bother off my chest, and sometimes it is fun.
Good to see Dallas back...
-Skinpinch.
P.S. Ignorance is not a put down. Apply the following definition of ignorant to the study of baseball...
-Lacking education or knowledge.
-Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: an ignorant mistake.
-Unaware or uninformed.
Most fans say things that show all three of those things, then they argue to death even though they are basically unaware of a lot of things. And for what it is worth, I have disagree with Dallas on many things, and have I ever called him ignorant or make a holier than now statement? No. Why? Because he isn't, he isn't biased, and he doesn't say foolish things that have no valid merit. Same goes for many other posters I talked to.
Have a good day. I dont' have condesned versions...yours didn't come off to well, so you probably shouldn't either.
Edited to add: Fans, for clarification, who was a better hitter based on their best five seasons, Ichiro or Darrell Evans?
I can tell your arrogance is running thick, so whatever you say, skin.
So keep calling people idiots and ignorant just because they don't agree with your perspective. Just remember that you can say your opinion is factual until the cows come back home; however, it doesn't make your statements any more factual.
Don't forget to add the intangibles that don't show up in the box score. Oh that's right, you can't because there's no numerical value you can place on emotion and leadership.
Maybe one day if we lose human emotion and become a pure statistical society, your so-called FACTS may hold water.
Baseball, I will answer your question...
It is primarily what I hear and read in regard to Ichiro(mostly from his fans of course, go figure). It also stems from the high praise he gets for his hit totals and high batting average. As shown, his hitting isn't as great as his hit totals and average suggest to many. Most certainly his defense adds to his value as a player. But most are adding that value to a perceived hitting value that isn't accurate, thus creating a God.
This must be asked to start...
WHO IS A BETTER HITTER, based on their best five seasons....Darrell Evans or Ichiro??
Once that question is answered by all the posters, then you get to step one to finding out if Ichiro is viewed as overrated or not.
To the youngins who love Ichiro, and wish to partake in comparing him to other players, make sure you account for hte following..
2) Account for eras...Ichiro's era being one of the easiest to hit in history
3) Don't make the mistake of measuring his current career percentage totals vs. players who played a whole career, because this is Ichiro's prime. If comparing him to retired players, measure vs. their primes too. Don't let their formative and old man years cloud what you are seeking because Ichiro hasn't gone through either.
Stown, you are relegated to page two responses. But this is the last response in regard to your opinion crusade. If you want to dig into the Darrell Evans question, then great, if not, then go somewhere else and stop being a troll.
The reality is that baseball leadership etc... is way overblown. What you are basically saying is that Ichiro's presence somehow transcends to others and makes them do better. No player's leadership does that, and I don't see anything with Jeter or any other so called leader that does either. If so, of all these so called leadership guys, every player they play with would have a marked improvement compared to when they played without them. It doesn't occur. Everything else they do can and IS measured to an extremely high degree of accuracy already!
Stown I am done talking to you about my so called arrogance, and what you think opinion is. An opinion formulated from well researched valid findings means something. Yeah, an ignoramus can formulate a different view too...but it is from an ignoramus, so it doesn't hold much weight. I don't care if you call it fact or opinion, call it whatever you want.
Your next words should answer the Evans/Ichiro question, so you can actually add something.
<< <i>Stown, you are relegated to page two responses. But this is the last response in regard to your opinion crusade. If you want to dig into the Darrell Evans question, then great, if not, then go somewhere else and stop being a troll. >>
Now I'm being a troll because I don't agree with your perspective?
We disagree how to evaluate players. You think that one can know, for a fact, how "good" someone is based upon a stat sheet and nothing else. It's all based upon how you weigh different factors in which a numerical value can be assigned. On the other hand, I take in account other qualities that you can't put a number on.
Does that make you a nerd and me a neanderthal?
Based upon your logic, guess so. But again, how productive is that?
The point is your claims are NOT facts but in the same breath, neither are mine. They can help formulate and solidify an arguement but they still don't make the statements factual.
Again, if we lived in a statistical-only world, then perhaps your theories would hold water. Until then, I, along with millions of other fans, will continue to use a human element that cannot be translated into binary code to evaluate. If that makes us neanderthals rather than closed-minded computer geeks; I'm proud to be one.
Maybe once cloning becomes the industry standard and there is no longer a unique and human element to society, your theories will be accepted.
Those other qualities you talk about are already woven into the performance. If a guy achieves 30 HR via work ethic, and another guy achieves it via more natural talent and laziness...it is still the same value.
The leadership qualities? The ramifications of that would be that you are assuming that they can make another player better. Just doesn't happen.
Your method? You have never given anything closely resembling a method. The only thing you do is completely discredit accurate findings, based on what actually occured(based on millions of play by play results).
You say they are just numbers, and you can do what you want with them. That isn't accurate at all. You can do what you want with them, but they will not stand up to any validity test.
So give me your method on evaluating Ichiro. So far all you have done is flippantly dismiss a measurement that accounts for about 95% of a players value based on how many runs he creates.
In fact, the measurements can account for nearly 95% of all runs created. It doesn't leave much else for the intangibles you speak of.
So give me your method, and apply it to Ichiro.
Just my 2 cents and that may be all its worth.
For example, those stats based around what an average player does. When someone in the starting lineup misses a game he is most likely being replaced by someone below average (otherwise they would starters). That means Ichiro playing in 161 games may easily be more valuable than someone with more batter runs who plays in 140 games
Further, you account for eras with Darrell Evans, but not ballpark with Ichiro. Safeco is pretty tough on all hitters
Ichiro probably is overrated (though being overrated is based on others perceptions that I sometimes don't care to pay attention to). But if you are going to call him that it is better to base it on accuracy than hyperbole
Also a lot of people who overrate him it has nothing to do with singles and batting average rather it is foreseeing him continueing at his current level for many more years. That's the same exact trap some people fall into when they overrate Alex Rodriguez
Hoopster,
What are your opinions on George Sisler and Hack Wilson being in the Hall-of-Fame?
I completely disagree, I have seen players step up and motivate others, teach others, inspire others. It makes a difference.
The only thing that has even remotely come close is saying your comments are not 100% factual. Is that completely blowing your thesis out of the water? No, it's a simple disagreement with how things are viewed.
Your problem is that someone cannot disagree without you going completely overboard. Your word isn't gospel, it's only another perspective. And for the Nth time, calling people ignorant is counter productive and another reason why most see it as arrogance.
And intangibles do account for more than 5%. I can't give you an exact number because it's an unmeasurable variable. Bet that makes you so mad, huh?
If one can isolate the value of a hitter to 95%, which pretty much can be...then it doesn't leave much else for intangibles.
The only possible intangible that one can hang their hat on is if a player has an ability to make another player better....whether it comes from inspirational words, or from teaching a technique.
Knowing the results of players, and how they perform under varying individuals, it doesn't show that much of htat goes on. A player is as good as he is pretty much.
All the coaching or inspiration in the world isn't going to be Mario Mendoza to hit .330. If such a player existed that can make him better, I haven't seen him, and if so, his team would never lose.
The other intangibles like hustle, etc...are all already woven into the players results. If Pete Rose hustled his way to a .300 average, and Dick Allen lazied his way to a .300 average, it is still a .300 average. Unless one can show that those intangibles can rub off onto other players, then you might have something. HOwever, when you look at it all, it really doesn't rub off.
Many people are ignorant on that stuff. If it is taken as a put down, then my apologies. But those same people try and bash stuff that is very accurate, and then it makes them look foolish...probably because they are speaking from a biased angle.
<< <i>I think the 1996 Yankees are a good example of that. Scott Brocious anyone? >>
I'm not sure exactly what you meant here, but this is actually a really good example that supports the point skinpinch is making.
Scott Brosius wasn't on the Yankees in 1996, so I figure you meant 1998 - the year the Yankees may have been the greatest team ever. And Brosius was very good that year - .371 OBP and .472 slugging. But the Yankees had the same team in 1999 and Brosius fell to .307 and .414; I suppose you could try to make a case that what the Yankees lacked in 1999 - but not in 1998 - was leadership, but I can't imagine that you'd get very far.
The ironic part is that 1996, when Brosius was on the A's, was his best season: .393 OBP and .516 slugging. Of course, the next year - on the same team - he fell to .259 and .317; again, you can try to say the difference was someone else's leadership, but I think you'll fail.
Scott Brosius was a below average player who had a couple of good seasons for a couple of different teams. He also had really terrible seasons for those same teams. That's who Scott Brosius was, and leadership had nothing to do with it.
And since nobody else wants to say it - Darrell Evans was much, much better than Ichiro.
{George Sisler and Hack Wilson - NOW we're talking about the most overrated players in history!}