Liberty Dollar

rgl1345

Text

GoldenEyeNumismatics

Quite honestly, the Liberty Dollar guy has a point. People can use whatever they want as barter.

Nobody is forcing people to buy his Liberty Dollars. If they choose too, and people accept them as "barter," than so be it.

There is nothing illegal about it.

StampAlarm

I want to be on the jury if this goes to trial.

loro1rojo

There is something illegal about the Liberty dollars. Look up 'liberty dollars' in youtube. You will find some videos of the founder of the LD using them in the public. He represents them as "the new silver dollar coin", without every mentioning its true status. People accepted them in the videos thinking they were issued by the federal government...

BXBOY143

9 minutes of pondering

Bochiman

Barter is fine, however, I, personally, believe this guy, and group, borders on deception with calling them "Liberty Dollars" and such.
Call it Liberty Drachmas and then try it....see if it is as successful.

tmot99

I think the issue is that they are called "dollars" and then trying to use them as currency. It's not the fact that he is trying to trade a medal for stuff. It's that he's calling it a dollar (or multiples there of) and trying to use it.

Editted to add:

1) The owner, Bernard, contacted me to have the Liberty Dollar added to the So-Called Dollars that I am working on. I guess he doesn't consider them real dollars either. And no, they are not going to be in the book.

2) The article mentions that this "news" only came from the e-mail that Liberty Dollar sent out. Nothing else confirms that it happened.

gecko109

If anyone is breaking the law, it is the FEDERAL RESERVE!!!! By law, the definition of a dollar is 371 grains of silver. Last time I looked at a "dollar bill", no silver.

ModernCrapNut

It just goes to show you that if you poke a bear with a stick often enough, sooner or later he will turn around and chew you up.

ziggy29

Would this be happening if they called them Liberty Bucks? "Buck" is slang with no official meaning.

By the way -- if anyone is selling them for huge profits at eBay -- the Feds have the purchasing records. They know who you are and what you paid for them. You never know if that means the IRS may get their hands on the list. Better pay your taxes on the gain!

Coinsponge

Everyone for a bigger and more powerful government like the Democrats want stand up and cheer. Hip, Hip, Horaaaaaaaa...arggg.

CaptHenway

<< <i>I think the issue is that they are called "dollars" and then trying to use them as currency. It's not the fact that he is trying to trade a medal for stuff. It's that he's calling it a dollar (or multiples there of) and trying to use it.

Editted to add:

1) The owner, Bernard, contacted me to have the Liberty Dollar added to the So-Called Dollars that I am working on. I guess he doesn't consider them real dollars either. And no, they are not going to be in the book.

2) The article mentions that this "news" only came from the e-mail that Liberty Dollar sent out. Nothing else confirms that it happened. >>



Correct as to the use of the term "dollars." That issued was settled in the 19th Century with the Cal Gold late dates.
1) Glad to see that they are not polluting the new SCD book.
2) The lack of press coverage seems to be because the Feds won't confirm anything, and the media do not consider the alleged victims to be a reliable source. I have spoken with one person in the trade papers who is convinced that something did happen, but they cannot confirm the who, what, where, when and why.
TD

vplite

This guy needs to get a job and move out of his mom's basement.

Russ

Looks like we finally have a report from a reasonably credible source:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/6420ap_id_liberty_dollar_raids.html

They actually contacted law enforcement officials.

Russ, NCNE

RonLJr

<< <i>Looks like we finally have a report from a reasonably credible source:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/6420ap_id_liberty_dollar_raids.html

They actually contacted law enforcement officials.

Russ, NCNE >>



We don't let the PI into Bellevue

Russ

Ron,

Notice I said "reasonably" credible.

Russ, NCNE

RonLJr

<< <i>Ron,

Notice I said "reasonably" credible.

Russ, NCNE >>

ziggy29

First eBay auction for Ron Paul "Dollar" to close post-raid fetches $331

Russ

<< <i>First eBay auction for Ron Paul "Dollar" to close post-raid fetches $331 >>



HOLY CRAP!

Russ, NCNE

mrearlygold

I bought some. ( Liberty Dollars ) They're very well made. Their customer service was less than helpful otherwise I would have bought more.

I missed out on the Ron Paul dollars. I would have liked to get some of those. Alas, I've been saved from myself by the government. No doubt there's a lot of people proud of at least creating the largest government on earth. What an accomplishment.

ChuckC

Another ebay bonanza if you were lucky enough to buy one!! Question is...would you buy one now knowing that this story will probably get more press during the week?

Coinsponge

Don't worry, the mint will be selling Ron Paul dollars soon. They just came into possession of a great hoard of them. Of course you know there is a one per household limit.

Enjoymint

Here's another "reasonably Credible" source: Feds raid Liberty Dollar HQ

Geoman

Straight off the US Mint's website - it says the Liberty Dollars are illegal!!!!

NORFED’s "Liberty Dollars"

Source: NORFED, Inc.
The National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve Act and the Internal Revenue Code (NORFED) is producing and marketing gold and silver medallions that NORFED calls "Liberty Dollars." The United States Mint and the United States Department of Justice have received inquiries regarding the legality of these so-called "Liberty Dollar" medallions. The United States Mint urges consumers who are considering the purchase or use of these items to be aware that they are not genuine United States Mint bullion coins and they are not legal tender. These medallions are privately produced products and are not backed by, nor affiliated in any way with, the United States Government. Moreover, prosecutors with the Department of Justice have determined that the use of these gold and silver NORFED "Liberty Dollar" medallions as circulating money is a Federal crime.

Consumers may find advertisements for these medallions confusing and should take note of several issues related to them.

First, the advertisements refer to the product as "real money" and "currency." These medallions might look like real money because they—
• Bear the inscriptions, "Liberty," "Dollars," "Trust in God" (similar to "In God We Trust"), and "USA" (similar to "United States of America"), and an inscription purporting to denote the year of production; and

• Depict images that are similar to United States coins, such as the torch on the reverses of the current dime coin, 1986 Statute of Liberty commemorative silver dollar and 1993 Bill of Rights commemorative half-dollar, and the Liberty Head designs on the obverses of United States gold coins from the mid-1800s to the early 1900s.
However, despite their misleading appearance, NORFED "Liberty Dollar" medallions are not genuine United States Mint coins and they are not legal tender.

Second, the advertisements confusingly refer to NORFED "Liberty Dollar" medallions as "legal" and "constitutional." However, under the Constitution ( Article I, section 8, clause 5 ), Congress has the exclusive power to coin money of the United States and to regulate its value. By statute ( 31 U.S.C. § 5112(a) ), Congress specifies the coins that the Secretary of the Treasury is authorized to mint and issue and requires the Secretary to carry out these duties at the United States Mint (31 U.S.C. § 5131). Accordingly, the United States Mint is the only entity in the United States with the lawful authority to mint and issue legal tender United States coins.

Under 18 U.S.C. § 486, it is a Federal crime to utter or pass, or attempt to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver intended for use as current money except as authorized by law. According to the NORFED website, "Liberty merchants" are encouraged to accept NORFED "Liberty Dollar" medallions and offer them as change in sales transactions of merchandise or services. Further, NORFED tells "Liberty associates" that they can earn money by obtaining NORFED "Liberty Dollar" medallions at a discount and then can "spend [them] into circulation." Therefore, NORFED’s "Liberty Dollar" medallions are specifically intended to be used as current money in order to limit reliance on, and to compete with the circulating coinage of the United States. Consequently, prosecutors with the United States Department of Justice have concluded that the use of NORFED’s "Liberty Dollar" medallions violates 18 U.S.C. § 486.

ziggy29

<< <i>Straight off the US Mint's website - it says the Liberty Dollars are illegal!!!!

...

Consequently, prosecutors with the United States Department of Justice have concluded that the use of NORFED’s "Liberty Dollar" medallions violates 18 U.S.C. § 486. >>

I'm not an apologist for NORFED by any stretch of the imagination, but just because a federal prosecutor claims they are illegal doesn't make it so. Government agencies and prosecutors can call anything they want illegal. But unless/until judges and juries agree with them, it's just hot air.

BXBOY143

NOW I'D SAY THIS IS NOT LEGAL!!!

any one like these? i kinda do but i think this is worse than the so called "liberty dollar"

thanx

-paul

Coinsponge

<< <i>

<< <i>Straight off the US Mint's website - it says the Liberty Dollars are illegal!!!!

...

Consequently, prosecutors with the United States Department of Justice have concluded that the use of NORFED’s "Liberty Dollar" medallions violates 18 U.S.C. § 486. >>

I'm not an apologist for NORFED by any stretch of the imagination, but just because a federal prosecutor claims they are illegal doesn't make it so. Government agencies and prosecutors can call anything they want illegal. But unless/until judges and juries agree with them, it's just hot air. >>

Bochiman

<< <i>

<< <i>Looks like we finally have a report from a reasonably credible source:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/6420ap_id_liberty_dollar_raids.html

They actually contacted law enforcement officials.

Russ, NCNE >>



We don't let the PI into Bellevue >>



Speak for yourself...I don't like the Times here in Redmond

pharmer

The PI. Intelligent as a post.

pb2y

Arrest expected. Wonder if US Treasury Agents will confiscate
Liberty Dollars already sold.

http://www.courierpress.com/news/2007/nov/16/liberty-dollar-leader-expecting-arrest/

pb2y

Original article from the Evansville, Indiana Courier & Press.

http://www.courierpress.com/news/2007/nov/16/feds-raidliberty-coinoffices/

Barberian

Except for burning the flag, trashing our country and cheering for America's enemies...HIPPIES NEVER SOLVED ANYTHING!Text

Other than getting the US out of a futile war supporting a viciously corrupt regime in Viet Nam, advocating cleaning up the air, rivers, and lakes of America, and bringing about real Civil Rights reform in this country, yeah I have to agree with you they've never solved anything! Then again, maybe you'd like polluted rivers and hopelessly repressed minorities that "know their place"! Stop being so fricking ignorant!

Zoins

<< <i>1) The owner, Bernard, contacted me to have the Liberty Dollar added to the So-Called Dollars that I am working on. I guess he doesn't consider them real dollars either. And no, they are not going to be in the book. >>

Does the new book cover late date modern SCDs?

Zoins

<< <i>Under 18 U.S.C. § 486, it is a Federal crime to utter or pass, or attempt to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver intended for use as current money except as authorized by law. >>

Does that mean the copper ones or any clad ones would be legal?

pb2y

One of the so called coins.

dcarr

<< <i>One of the so called coins.

>>



I think it sets the record for having the most different font styles used on a single coin/token/medal.
I count 12 different.

weresteve

FWIW ... Washington Post article on the raids ...

In Paul They Trust (The Feds May Differ)

Bear

To bad the US Mint, can't seem to produce

legal coins that are as beautiful.

pb2y

Gold

pb2y

Copper

pb2y

Silver

pb2y

Paper

Coxe

<< <i>Arrest expected. Wonder if US Treasury Agents will confiscate
Liberty Dollars already sold.

<a href="http://www.courierpress.com/news/2007/nov/16/liberty-dollar-leader-expecting-arrest/">http://www.courierpress.com/news/2007/nov/16/liberty-dollar-leader-expecting-arrest/</A&gt; >>



The likely arrest will follow criminal charges once they present evidence to support their case.

The warrant did include seizure of records of customers, dealers, and sales. It could get pretty ugly if they started chasing down all those rabbits like RIAA does song pirates. And if they did that you know how many alarms would be going off regarding the possibility of an imminent seizure of privately held gold in general.

morgansforever

I love the design. Excellent detail. Where can I buy some?

At least it's back by something. Unlike our own money which is printed upon demand,

and backed by consumer confidence.

pb2y

Von Nothaus is living in Florida and is waiting for his arrest.Here is the
latest from the Evansville Courier & Press

http://www.courierpress.com/news/2007/nov/17/libertydollar-headanticipates-his-arrest/

pb2y

<< <i>I love the design. Excellent detail. Where can I buy some? At least it's back by something. Unlike our own money which is printed upon demand, and backed by consumer confidence. >>



The store is closed

BBN

<< <i>There is something illegal about the Liberty dollars. Look up 'liberty dollars' in youtube. You will find some videos of the founder of the LD using them in the public. He represents them as "the new silver dollar coin", without every mentioning its true status. People accepted them in the videos thinking they were issued by the federal government... >>



I have been defending this guy's form of money and making them, but I agree he was being deceptive and taking advantage of ignorant people. he should at least be a little more up front with them

mach19

Have you ever used this coin as tender?

BBN

never have. If I had one and used it it would be simply as barter with the other person fully aware that they are accepting one ounce of silver. I wouldn't try to pass it off as govt' issued money.

mach19

Wow, I'm glad I held on to mine. The prices are going through the roof! $1 /$ 2 /$ 5 /$ 10 /$ 20. I think the rare one is the two dollar "coin"

ccmorgan

From the link Russ posted



<< <i>"When the people own the money, they control the government," von NotHaus said. "When the government owns the money, it controls the people." >>



Looks like the truth came out.