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Has anyone checked the Sac Dollars section of the Price Guide??
eCoinquest
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Has anyone checked the Sac Dollars section of the Price Guide?? Almost all of the coins in the top grades have gone up. Doesn't PCGS usually update the prices when a coin in the grade has sold??? If so I sure would like to know who is selling all of those coins.
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Take the 2005-P Sac in PCGS-MS69 business strike (pop 1). A board member here owns the coin. That coin is priced now in the Guide at $7,500 even though the coin has never sold since the time the board member purchased it a couple years ago. I would write a check for $7,500 (sight-seen of course) this morning if the board member offered me the coin. I suspect you, too, Hany, would be delighted to pay $7,500 for that coin. Hence, a perfectly justified price level in the Guide even without an actual sale IMHO.
Should the guide still reflect $5,000 on the MS70 Sacs since that is the last price one sold for (even though a dealer I know would pay $7,500 - $10,000 right now to buy one of the 3 coins)?
Way to go J.H. on a superb job with the Sac Dollars!!
Next stop STATE QUARTER Mint State if I can assist J.H. a bit. Ex: Doug's DEL(p) MS69 - IMHO Price Guide needs to go from $7,500 to $12,500 MINIMUM. And, I believe many more coins need to move up as well.
Wondercoin
Over all the prices are very reasonable IMO.
Now, lets see some of those coins up for sale!!
Wondercoin
My point is that you are not the only dealer that has had offers - Coinfame, Datentype and Tazmic to name others. Doug is an excellent reference but even he has missed out on some pop 1 coins. My point is, with the Fuller Collection being sold in open auction it will be an unbaised basid of some of the coins worth, Including the 2005 MS70 quarters.
I did sell the last 2 pop 3 coins however- I do not wish to give out that information as I believe that is the buyer's right for that inforamtion to remain confidential.
The state quarter market is based on a rather small set of collectors who actually go after the top coins. There are now 3 NJ-P that can be had on the market and I am not sure if there are 3 buyers ready to step up. Again the Heritage auction will be a good test, even though it is only one sale.
<< <i>Now that the Fuller Collection is going public in a Heritage sale there will be a public record of most coins. >>
Not sure if this is the best route or best place to track sales information for state Quarters. I for one do not follow Heritage auctions and I'm sure many other State Quarter Collectors do not as well. So how will the sales go? Record breaking price's above PCGS price guide? Below PCGS price guide? Or no sale at all due to some sort of buy back / reserve?
We’ll see
Wondercoin
<< <i>
<< <i>Now that the Fuller Collection is going public in a Heritage sale there will be a public record of most coins. >>
Not sure if this is the best route or best place to track sales information for state Quarters. I for one do not follow Heritage auctions and I'm sure many other State Quarter Collectors do not as well. So how will the sales go? Record breaking price's above PCGS price guide? Below PCGS price guide? Or no sale at all due to some sort of buy back / reserve? We’ll see >>
Heritage Sale could be risky IMHO. Interested buyers should be reading this because some could go very cheap if the open interest is low. I'm not too sure that very many Top Pop State Quarters make it over there, so most may not even think to look.
Wondercoin
<< <i>Seth - I have all of the proposed price levels for 1999 state quarters now - if you want to hear about them before they get presented to PCGS for consideration - just say the word - I can call you now.
Wondercoin >>
I'd be interested in that info. Feel free to call me Mitch. (805) 878-7272 WH
Wondercoin
My teenage son bought 50 rolls of the Delaware quarters when they came out in 99. I do not know if they were P or D. They remain in the original bank rolls today. Should I have him contact you for pricing/grading?
Or are all the high grade specimens in the pop reports from the mint sets?
My suggestion - screen the 2,000 roll coins down to the best 80 (2 rolls). Next Long Beach - if you show them to me, I'll be happy to screen the 80 down to the best 5-10 submission coins for you. You buy lunch.
Wondercoin
P.S. Mas is now 100% on board as well with all of the proposed price changes for 1999 state quarters
He also intends to investigate the facts surrounding the 1999-P CT quarter in MS69. If he believes there is sufficient evidence to remove the coin from the pop report, he intends to.
Wondercoin
One step at a time
Will the Kennedies be next?
Next stop (I hope) - the 2000 series of MS state quarters.
Wondercoin
Yes, I believe that popularity is the reason that they are so much higher priced than other series.
<< <i>Next stop (I hope) - the 2000 series of MS state quarters. >>
Looking forward to working on this project
The pop had remained around 17-18 for a couple years and the price guide was around $3,500. When the Sac chart adjusted last month, I pointed out the Price Guide editor that coins such as the (then) higher pop 2001-P MS69 had sales around $2,500 or so. Also, the higher pop 2002-P MS69 had sales around $3,000. Based upon the significantly (relative) lower pop 2003-D COUPLE with these comp. sales figures for similar top pop coins, I believe the editor was comfortable raising the Guide to $4,000 on the 2003-D. Until earlier this week..... when the near 5 year old pop on the 2003-D Sac DOUBLED in a single day from 18 to 35!!!! Now, the 2003-D is HIGHER pop than any of the comp. coins used in assessing that price hike of last month. Using the comps. my best guess today is the 2003-D is now a roughly $2,250 - $2,500 coin (generously) for Price Guide purposes. Yet, the editor did not go to those levels (yet) - he simply went back to roughly where the 2003-D Ssc was priced prior to the plusing of the coin.
I say GREAT JOB to the editor - adjusting the Guide quickly to address the DOUBLING of a 5 year old pop in a single day. If you have these coins in stock - sure it "hurts" to see a lowering price, but, WITHOUT QUESTION, a justified adjustment to the price guide (I have already received feedback from top Sac collectors supporting the adjustment). And, no different than the handful of PR70DC $50 Gold Eagle prices that also adjusted that day for the same reason (coins I happen to have in stock right now and "suffered" a nearly $7,500 combined adjustment to Price Guide value in a single day).
But, there always one way to PROVE to the Price Guide editor that his adjustment is too far in a direction... post a good faith buy on the coin in question. For example.... any dealers out there willing to pay $3,300 right now ($50 over Guide) for a 2003-D Sac in PCGS-MS68?
Hope this helps. Wondercoin
Second, you have to, once again, understand the basis for the move up last month on that particular coin to appreciate the basis for the move down. The earlier date Sacs (best I know) which seldom sell (e.g. 2000-P MS69 pop 6 which hasn't had a public sale in years and last I looked no registry set even contains the coin?) must have price movement in the Guide based upon the combination of pop report information and sales info. if any. FYI - Sac Dollars and state quarters are on the radar screen of the editor right now as the charts are in the process of being adjusted. The 1999 state quarter chart adjusted in 2 days the other week and no one was dissapointed with the speed of that move?
Seth - 2 questions for you if you please...
1. Do you agree that coins should have movement in the guide notwithstanding actual sales one way or the other. For example, that 2000-P MS69 Sac (pop 6) I mentioned (or the 2005-P Sac in MS70SF) - if it fails to have a single sale in 3 or 4 years, do you support appreciation in the price of those coins nonetheless?
2. If you answer "yes" to #1 above, where would you personally have priced a pop 18 Sac (listed at $4,000 in the guide) that jumped to pop 35 in a single day? The Price Guide editor adjusted to $3,250 out of the box - make sense to you?
Wondercoin
If fair pricing is the goal, perhaps PCGS should look to more than one source for pricing?
Any chance you might answer my 2 questions though, just so I can hear what you have to say as I greatly value your opinion.
Wondercoin
1. Prices can and should move when availability is non-existent. This is why prices go up in auctions over time.
2. The problem here is that it was done at one person's suggestion whether done with honorable intentions or not.
I saw this : 2003 D Sacagawea Dollar PCGS MS68 !!!! Pop Top !!!!! which in my opinion counts as a $3,895 sale that should be a great influencer on the Price Guide.
If fair pricing is the goal, perhaps PCGS should look to more than one source for pricing?
Wondercoin
<< <i>Until earlier this week..... when the near 5 year old pop on the 2003-D Sac DOUBLED in a single day from 18 to 35!!!! Now, the 2003-D is HIGHER pop than any of the comp. coins used in assessing that price hike of last month. Using the comps. my best guess today is the 2003-D is now a roughly $2,250 - $2,500 coin (generously) for Price Guide purposes. Yet, the editor did not go to those levels (yet) - he simply went back to roughly where the 2003-D Ssc was priced prior to the plusing of the coin. >>
Wonder how he knew of the coins and also a few other Sac's that the Pop moved by a few or even just 1 coin which where effected as well why such a drastic change to them also.
"Wonder" who was consulted on this one, no one called me?
<< <i>Seth - First, not sure where you are coming up with the "one dealer" comment. For example, when I suggested to the editor that the Price Guide on the 2005-P Sac in MS70 (pop 3) sharply rise from the $7,500 level it sits at (a position agreed upon by many - I believe yourself included?), after he consulted with others, the coin did not move up from there. But, generally I try to make fair suggestions for the Guide and throughout the years my suggestions have been shown to be reasonable. >>
Seth since you where consulted on the 2005 P Sac why did you not know about the current "Quick" price drop on several Sacagawea's
I "Wonder"
<< <i>If fair pricing is the goal, perhaps PCGS should look to more than one source for pricing? >>
So with a phone call one Dealer gets the price guide changed because he said so. I added 200 + State Quarters to the Pop last week. Why have you not jumped on the phone to have them adjusted down?
<< <i>2. The problem here is that it was done at one person's suggestion whether done with honorable intentions or not. >>
I believe OR NOT.
We saw a rise in POP on some 1999 State Quarters in MS68 “Wonder” why they did not decrease. “Wonder” who made them
We saw a rise in POP on some 1999 Kennedy’s in MS68 “Wonder” why they did not decrease. “Wonder” who made them
“Wonder” why no one ran to the editor to adjust the price on these down, I “Wonder”
Funny what a guy would do when he can't get his way.
Have a Nice Day
This is NOT a bash! But I just don't understand why a coin made in the last few years can be worth $7500 because it is in a high grade when you can probably go to the bank and get rolls and find a 65 or maybe even a 66 for a dollar?? There are millions if not billions of these coins. Just think how many haven't been looked at. It's like the 03 cent that is worth so much to some because it is the only MS70. Just think how many 70's are out there that have not been found. AND you can pick up a MS68 for next to nothing. Why do people pay 15K for 2 points on a very very very very common coin??
I just don't get it!
Regarding the state quarters - you may have slabbed "200" of them this week, BUT, as you were well aware, the Guide was being addressed -1- year at a time. We did year 1999, but only after all interested parties joinlty agreed on levels to the coins. At the time, you had MS68 1999 coins to sell - in fact, you were the only one on ebay I believe with them for sale. That didn't matter - the price rose on some coins by 10% - 20% or so - a move jointly approved by the group of collectors / dealers presenting information to JH. Silly to suggest I owned some (like you) at the time - I also owned a couple 03-D Sacs in my #2 set at the time I lost value on those coins when pop went from 18 to 35 overnight and pop report adjusted.
Next job - year 2000 state quarters. I have been working up some proposed figures - after I speak with Doug R, I can let you know if you would like and we can discuss those proposed figures just as we did 1999 before the coins got adjusted after JH analyzed the proposed information presented to him (after you / I and others approved it).
Wondercoin
<< <i>This is NOT a bash! But I just don't understand why a coin made in the last few years can be worth $7500 because it is in a high grade when you can probably go to the bank and get rolls and find a 65 or maybe even a 66 for a dollar?? There are millions if not billions of these coins. Just think how many haven't been looked at. It's like the 03 cent that is worth so much to some because it is the only MS70. Just think how many 70's are out there that have not been found. AND you can pick up a MS68 for next to nothing. Why do people pay 15K for 2 points on a very very very very common coin?? I just don't get it! >>
The MS70 in question is one of a million or so in population that are in the 2005 Uncirculated Mint Set (Satin Finish). If you search 10,000 sets or about 1%, it is possible not to make any or 1 or 2 possibly? I believe one dealer went through upwards of 3000-5000 sets according to them and did not find the 05P-Sac-70SF. 1,000 sets costs $17,000, so 10,000 sets costs $170,000. I'd say that $7,500 is a good price. Honestly I think I would wait for a better offer if I still had the one I found.
<< <i>I have been working up some proposed figures - after I speak with Doug R, I can let you know if you would like and we can discuss those proposed figures just as we did 1999 before the coins got adjusted after JH analyzed the proposed information presented to him (after you / I and others approved it). >>
The more I read these threads, the more it sounds like price fixing.
Wondercoin
You are letting PCGS know about coin prices sold outside normal venues. Thus giving them more info to base price guide levels for coins.
Nothing wrong with that, I've done it myself with the 1995-D 67FB, and the 05-D and 06-P 67FB coins. All three were sold by me privately, thus PCGS had information for prices these coins would bring.
And in the case of the 05/06 67FB's none had been sold before, giving them no way of knowing what these coins were going for.
<< <i>Mas - Seriously, stop complaining about your nice score and enjoy it! IMHO, the coins are NOT worth what the Guide says right now after the very conservative adjustment by Jamie H. I could say a whole lot more, but I will not - let's leave it at that - and you price them anyway you see fit - if you believe they are worth $4,000/coin as a pop 35 that is your 100% right. >>
So as busy as you are, why the need to jump all over price fixing on the Sac's???
Because you didn't make them??? Because you couldn’t have a piece of the action??? Because.......???
So with a phone call 1 guy can get the PCGS Price guide adjusted.....................
Wonder how hard you stomped and cried when your saw the Pops and they weren't your coins, Oh and than found out they where mine, quick pick up the phone and mess with Me.
07 P MS68 & 07 D MS67 Business strike Sacagawea Pops blew up pretty good recently, Wonder why they were not adjust downward immediately??? “Wonder who has those coins????
<< <i>Price Guide editor who makes the ultimate decision on a price level. >>
With a little influence from……………………….
1. The editor specifically asked me to assist him with the Sac Dollar chart. I did not ask him to help or volunteer any information. He told me to ignore the meanspirited postings here.
2. The editor is keeping a close eye on very low pop coins rising sharply in pop so that he can address them quickly in the Guide. While he has a massive job handling all modern coins - he is well focused on particular series - Sac Dollars being one of them.
3. The Price Guide change from $4,000 down to $3,250 on a pop 18 coin rising to 35 was well justified. Further reductions are under review.
Have a great day! Wondercoin
Mike, I personally hope that you make a ton of money from those nice and extremely tough coins. I doubt anyone has reveiwed a greater number of that date than i have and i still have not made one in that grade. However, if the coin is indeed a pop 35 coin, the price adjustment was probably correct. I guess the problem is how quickly the information is exchanged??
<< <i>NOT to respond to your posts >>
I'm sure that is because you are afraid or can’t speak the truth. As always go around with your replies
<< <i>07 P MS68 & 07 D MS67 Business strike Sacagawea Pops blew up pretty good recently, Wonder why they were not adjust downward immediately??? “Wonder who has those coins???? >>
Funny how when one dealer makes a good number of the same coins nothing changes on the price guide??
No need to talk to the editor what you have done is done. I have no problem with any of the work they do. It is that you "Jumped" right on it when you could not control the coins or get a piece of the action.
Have a Nice Day
Funny thing is a board member alerted me to the new higher pop in the first place in a PM (it is really that guy you should be after!). I had no idea YOU had all the coins or even a good portion of them! LOL.
I do have a buyer for a couple coins at $1,700/coin (your reference to wanting a "piece of the action") - about 1/2 the current price guide price. But, since the highest buyer I see is now at $2,300/coin (about 70% of adjusted guide), I'll alert my buyer that they may have to wait a bit longer.
Finally, regarding 07 coins - had you taken the time to call the editor today, he would have explained why the price (which never rose in the first place - unlike the 03-D) did not drop after those rising pops. But, so you know, I did suggest lowering both of those coins you keep referencing.
Wondercoin
Tesoro - I am not arguing otherwise (or even in agreement with you).
But, I can tell you what I believe I know (and I am not speaking for the editor here- anyone can pick up the phone and call him) of the editor's protocol with the Sac Dollar chart. The coins more than a year or so old are all linked to each other based upon the pop report numbers. For example, when a pop 25 coin sells at $2,500 or so in a public auction (e.g. a 2001-P MS69) a couple of times (and there are times where a single auction price can not be 100% relied upon) a pop 18 coin can get a move up in the Price Guide just as the 03-D Sac got a move up to $4,000 a few weeks ago. But, when a coin such as the 03-D rises in pop from 18 to 35, the $4,000 level is simply unsustanable vis a vis the chart as a whole- MONOPOLIES IN PLAY OR NOT. As I mentioned before, IMHO the drop to $3,250 was a "gentle" adjustment on that coin. In fact, a bit out of line with what the "chart" dictates the new level to be.
Wondercoin
Edited to add - that was a simplification - what makes the charting a bit challenging is the inclusion of addition information pertinent to each particular coin in the series (e.g. mintage, etc.) in order to tweek the numbers appropriately.
Then actually the 1st coin popped up and Nick had it and sold to Dan50 to give to me for a large sum (Thanks Dan) Thats fine too.
Now weeks later the 2005-D MS67FB pop is (17/1) and the price guide still says $400 per coin.
Incidentally the 2005-P MS67FB (6/0) Of which I made (2/0) is sitting at a whopping $70 per coin. I sold my dupe for less then that!
Now Wondercoin is trying to settle the price guide with PCGS and Mas3387 doesn't like it.
I have my opinion of both dealers and can you guess whom this comment that Dan50 made in another post refers too?
<< <i>I watched a 68FB dime bring $2600.00 on TT, only now the original owner has the same coin priced for about $1000.00 less in his ebay store.
Makes me wonder.
Wondercoin, when you speak with Jaime H. can you run the above Dime stats by him please. An oh by the way, the 2005-D MS68FB sold on eBay for around $700, but don't quote me on that.
Thanks, Paul.
Later, Paul.
<< <i>Now Wondercoin is trying to settle the price guide with PCGS and Mas3387 doesn't like it. >>
Not a problem with the price guide it's with how quickly it was jumped on and the reason behind it.
<< 07 P MS68 & 07 D MS67 Business strike Sacagawea Pops blew up pretty good recently, Wonder why they were not adjust downward immediately??? “Wonder who has those coins???? >>
No price adjust was made when these Pops grew, no one cared about the price in the guide and the maker/dealer did not want it changed.
<< <i>2. The editor is keeping a close eye on very low pop coins rising sharply in pop so that he can address them quickly in the Guide. While he has a massive job handling all modern coins - he is well focused on particular series - Sac Dollars being one of them. >>
We can assume these coins were missed Or was it who controlled them did not want to see it changed.
Anyway, your example pertaining to dimes is relevant and exactly what JH is trying to address with quick pricing moves like the one on the 03-D Sacs. What Mas failed to tell you is the same day the pop corrected on a handful of Sacs, it also corrected downward on a number of other series such as Proof $50 Gold Eagles. A similar number of minus signs on that chart as the Sacs. Nearly every minus in that Proof Gold Eagle chart involved a coin I currently own, including the "key date" 1993-W $50 which dropped thousands of dollars in a single day. All proper moves down. If you stock moderns (or classics), expect some to move up and some to move down.
Wondercoin