Why and when did US coins quit using allegorical images?

notlogical

I guess the "when" is pretty easy to figure out, by looking in the Redbook and seeing design changes. But the "why" isn't so easy to figure out. Does anyone know if there was a specific reason for giving up the use of allegorical images, or was there a specific movement to change over to Presidents? If there was, who was behind it and why? Curious YN minds want to know. Thanks!

hubird

RWB's books on the Renaissance of American Coinage really help shed some light on this subject.

edit: He may pipe up here in a little bit.

ricko

It had to be a decision by some cold hearted individual with zero sense of art or pride. All coinage with dead presidents is ugly - I long for the likes of Teddy Roosevelt.. someone with the nerve to stand up to the pc blockheads dictating the garbage we see today and call for a return to art. Cheers, RickO

Griv

I think people got tired of the mindless crap that was copied from world coinage and wanted something with really great designs like what we have now. That old stuff is great to collect and there are some great designs in a sea of crappy ones but thankfuly we are on to better things. The Ike and SBA excluded, sorry. Oh, and most of the Spouse coins and all of the Presidents, oh and that JFK not to mention . . . I better stop before I rile everyone up.

Bochiman

<< <i>It had to be a decision by some cold hearted individual with zero sense of art or pride. All coinage with dead presidents is ugly - I long for the likes of Teddy Roosevelt.. someone with the nerve to stand up to the pc blockheads dictating the garbage we see today and call for a return to art. Cheers, RickO >>




Rick, it must have been great to be around to meet a historical person like Teddy
(All I have from my days would be a choice like Clinton )

Connecticoin

Our government loves to honor dead presidents as if they were royalty.

The dead presidents on the nickel and quarter would have been horrified if they were alive today, especially over the disgusting presidential dollar folly.

notlogical

But who or what was behind the change? Lincoln was the first, right? So it had to be around 1909 that who ever decided made the decision. Right?

But the other coinage didn't change until later. So what caused the change? Then once a decision was made, was it kind of a domino effect with different politicians wanting their favorite President honored?

So who was the "decider"?

TwoSides2aCoin

You ask hard questions, Samuel. Is your dad coaching you or did you come up with this yourself ?

Good day to you and yours.

holeinone1972

I am pretty sure the guy who made the decision was named Dick something or other.....................

By the way, I am 35 and I had to go lookup allegorical on Webster's .com. Sam slow down, you are too smart. LOL



al·le·gor·i·cal /ˌælɪˈgɔrɪkəl, -ˈgɒr-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[al-i-gawr-i-kuhl, -gor-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective consisting of or pertaining to allegory; of the nature of or containing allegory; figurative: an allegorical poem; an allegorical meaning.

This al·le·gor·i·cal (āl'ĭ-gôr'ĭ-kəl, -gŏr'-) Pronunciation Key
adj. Of, characteristic of, or containing allegory: an allegorical painting of Victory leading an army.


Now that search did not help. LOL

I do know what you are referring to, but the dictionary was no help. LOL

hubird

From what I can gather, Mr. Roughrider (Pres. Teddy R.) crammed his ideas down the mint's throat, more or less. He actively pursued ways to circumvent Congress, didn't he? Hmm, that sounds familiar, on par with today even.

On another note, did the "progressive coin movement" of the early 20th century exemplify a softening of the American conscience toward the native American Indian? Others offer their reasons, but did T.R.'s exposure to Indian culture and beliefs lead to his distaste for use of the IGWT motto?

Maybe it wasn't just T.R., but someone instigated this tendency to drop the motto that had been on U.S. coins for a few decades by then, don't you think? Could it/should it be done today, notlogical?

Sunnywood

Actually the tendency to want to elevate Presidents to icons dates back to the founding of our country. If you study both early coiange and medals, as well as 19th century patterns and medals, you will see that many folks wanted to put George Washington on our coinage. There is a whole field of exonumia called "Washingtoniana" that includes anything and everything depicting Washington.

Washington himself rejected the idea of being elevated to iconic status. He was offered a monarchy or various other levels of executive power, but he single-handedly pointed our country in the direction of a civilian President who is not a King. Washington himself chose the title "Mr. President," with the "Mister" being quite specifically intended to equate him with everyone else - not Sir, Lord, King, etc. It was under Washington's watch that the 1792 patterns bore a figure of Liberty. While some have claimed the obverse of the 1792 half disme, for example, is based on a portrait of Martha Washington, it clearly indicates "Lib[erty] Par[ent] of Science & Industry" - telling us that the figure is an iconic representation of Liberty.

Washington's rejection of his own status as a national icon led to a century of coinage based on Liberty, rather than men. This began to change with the end of the Civil War. A look at the shield nickel and other patterns of 1866 and beyond shows that there was a desire to memorialize the accomplishment of Abraham Lincoln as the savior of the Union and the uniter of the north and south. This irresistable force eventually took hold with the introduction of the Lincoln cent in 1909. Thus it was Lincoln, and not Washington, whose legacy resulted in the break with tradition. That was the beginning of the modern era in coinage, and when the opportunity later arose, the floodgates opened to depictions of other great Americans.

Before the introduction of the Lincoln cent, all the previous attempts to put Lincoln or Washington on the coinage were rejected. We all know that Teddy Roosevelt wanted an overhaul of the nation's coinage starting in 1907. Yet the lincoln cent was introduced in 1909. It would be interesting to know whether T. Roosevelt had a hand in that, or whether he was too busy focusing on the gold denominations at that early juncture, and the Lincoln cent slipped by him. It is the Lincoln cent which must be blamed for dethroning Liberty as the primary symbol on our coinage. (Some minor denominations of the 19th century lacked a depiction of Liberty, such as the two cent piece and the shield nickel, both of which featured the Union Shield as a symbol of our country; and the three cent silver, with its star motif. However, at least these coins did not replace ideals with mere mortals.) I have to believe T.R. had a hand in it, but perhaps someone on these Boards with more specific knowledge can tell us ...

Best,
Sunnywood

P.S. hubird T.R. wanted the IGWT motto off the coinage not because he was an atheist, and not because he believed in separation of church and state, but rather because he believed it was profane to use the name of God on something so mundane and base as the coinage of our commerce.

ricko

Bochiman, yes, T.R. was a great drinking buddy ... and we could use some leaders with the drive he had today... there are virtually none on the ballot - or in congress. But I digress... my point was, a strong leader today, could bring us back to art on our coinage...instead of this PC crap of design by committee and offend no one.... poor little weenies get their feelings hurt. Tough!! Cheers, RickO

notlogical

I thought of the question from a answer I got to my thread about the Standing Liberty quarter that used the word allegorical. I had to look it up too and then I thought about asking this question.

No my dad isn't helping me. I wish he was. He's not feeling good again. He's been sick for something like 2 months.

hubird

Gee RickO, you don't think we need more pc blockheads and religious do-gooders? I was told they have all the answers.

sfs2002usa

I'm a big fan of the Lincoln cent and the Kennedy half. Perhaps they should remake allegorical coins
on and off.

LanLord

<< <i>I am pretty sure the guy who made the decision was named Dick something or other..................... By the way, I am 35 and I had to go lookup allegorical on Webster's .com. Sam slow down, you are too smart. LOL al·le·gor·i·cal /ˌælɪˈgɔrɪkəl, -ˈgɒr-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[al-i-gawr-i-kuhl, -gor-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –adjective consisting of or pertaining to allegory; of the nature of or containing allegory; figurative: an allegorical poem; an allegorical meaning. This al·le·gor·i·cal (āl'ĭ-gôr'ĭ-kəl, -gŏr'-) Pronunciation Key adj. Of, characteristic of, or containing allegory: an allegorical painting of Victory leading an army. Now that search did not help. LOL I do know what you are referring to, but the dictionary was no help. LOL >>



this doesn't help with the question, but obviously Webster's is a POS! A dictionary should never, NEVER use the word itself in it's own definition! That's just rediculous!

ONETHREE

A little OT but this is one of my favorite allegorical pieces of art, Washington as Zeus the lawgiver. Maybe we can keep the dead presidents and the allegory on the coins!

dogwood

Considering the above Zeus looks the striking image of our own George Washington, I'd say allegory could get a renewed pass with this one.

RWB

This may help:

In an allegory, objects, persons and actions are equated with meanings that lie outside the literal image. The underlying meaning has moral, social, religious, or political significance, and images often personify abstract ideas such as liberty, strength, or peace. An allegorical image has both literal and symbolic meanings.

On why they were phased out on coins…

Theodore Roosevelt’s original commission to Saint-Gaudens was for two designs: the cent and the double eagle (with the assumption that the double eagle design would be used on the other three gold coins). After submitting a double eagle design in December 1906 and a cent design in February 1907, Roosevelt and Saint-Gaudens disagreed about which version of Liberty should go on the double eagle. In late May, the President decided to use the striding Liberty on the double eagle and the Liberty portrait with Indian headdress on the eagle – thus putting the two preferred designs on the two largest gold coins. Roosevelt wanted the most impressive use of the designs.

In 1908 there was speculation about a commemorative half dollar for Lincoln. However, while posing for medalist Victor Brenner in August, apparently Brenner suggested the cent or nickel as appropriate for an image of the “great commoner.” Roosevelt liked the idea of the cent and mint director Frank Leach fixed that denomination. He also obtained an opinion from the Attorney General that “Lincoln” was, in fact, “emblematic of Liberty” which is what the coinage law required. The Buffalo nickel was approved using the same logic to substitute a representative portrait of a Native American.

Now, notlogical can take it from here….

(Info on the Roosevelt/Saint-Gaudens collaboration will be found in Renaissance of American Coinage 1905-1908 Volume 1; Lincoln cent and Buffalo nickel are in Volume 2 covering 1909-1915)

Coxe

Sounds more likely than the urban legend that Lincoln was put on the cent to force the image into the hands of poor post-Reconstruction Southerners.

RWB

It seems strange, but other than a few mentions of possibly coining a half dollar commemorating Lincoln’s birth. I could find no documents discussing any real plan to do this. It was only after the August sittings with Brenner that a coin became a meaningful option. Dir. Leach didn’t know about it until September when Barber told him, and there are no Mint letters about this for several months. It is possible that government officials felt that there were so many medals and curios being sold in advance of Lincoln’s anniversary, that the event didn’t need a commemorative coin. Also, no one stood to make any money from a Lincoln commemorative – and that may be the real reason.

notlogical

Thanks again RWB for all your help.