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Two part question on "problem" coins.


I often struggle as a collector between high grade but cleaned type coins, and lower grade original coins. Like most people, I dont have a bottomless wallet, so my question is twofold. Lets use a draped bust half as an example (one of my favorite coins). If there were 2 coins in a dealer's case, the first was in a PCGS 12 holder, and the other was in an ANACS VF30 details, cleaned holder, and both were the same price, which would you buy as a collector, and which would you buy as strictly an investment?

Secondly, it seems that there just are not enough problem free original type coins to go around when we are talking about draped bust, and flowing hair coinage. I'd guesstimate that for every 20 raw examples of this type of coinage, maybe just 1 would slab. And that may be a generous guess! Do you guys think that problem coins will be more readily accepted by the coin collecting community as people start to realize there just arent enough original coins to go around?

Thirdly, what realistic type of discount from sheet should a raw coin that has just minor problems (just enough not to slab) justify? Again, im talking about draped and flowing hair coins. Or is full sheet expected for the details grade, and 150-200% of sheet for original, problem free coins?

Thanks in advance for your opinions!

Comments

  • TomBTomB Posts: 21,993 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The second part of your set of questions could go a long way to answering the first part. It has been my experience that, in general, essentially problem-free, original coinage is much more liquid than any similar coin with problems. I don't have a bottomless wallet, either, yet I do not find myself attracted to problem coins and will simply buy fewer, but better, coins that appear original. Both PCGS and NGC are quite liberal with what they will accept as far as previous manipulation on early half dollars, so the 5% slab cutoff appears to low to me. As for discounts, well, there is no coin that I need enough to compromise my standards in any meaningful way. Therefore, a coin with obvious problems will be a no-sale to me and to many others who think and collect like me. Beautiful, original, problem-free early halves will sell for far in advance of Greysheet if the seller is knowledgable.
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  • MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,550 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't buy raw coins. I don't buy coins as an investment. And I haven't ever really focused on draped bust or flowing hair coinage. But, with that in mind, I would like to answer your questions.

    1. I would take the PCGS 12 problem free coin. The only time I would buy a known problem coin is if the coin were so rare I'd never be able to afford - or never get another chance to buy a better example. And I believe original, problem-free coins sell better in all grades than problem coins.

    2. The coin collecting community is very fluid and there will always be people who are willing to compromise with a problem coin just to fill a hole in their collections. However, not having enough original coins to go around adds to the excitement of the hunt - which for me is one of the best parts of collecting. But, in general, common-date problem coins will never enjoy wide acceptance in the hobby IMO.

    3. I have no idea...and I wouldn't try to assign a percentage discount accross the board. It greatly depends on the individual coin and the timing of the purchase.
  • Quality comes first. Don't buy someone else's problem coin or else be prepared to hear about the 'problem' should you try to sell it later on. Savvy collectors won't buy junk, and that's why the lower grade, problem-free coin would be best for both the collector and investor. The discount really depends on what the coin looks like, but expect 20% min and as much as 60% or so (and some dealers will assert that the cleaning makes no difference in value, which is garbage). Look for coins with original surfaces, nice strikes, and minimal contact marks. Make sure that you each coin you buy is solid for its grade. Stay away from anything else.

  • Sounds like some good advice. Its just so hard for me to walk into a coinshop and see an 1837 seated dime thats had an obvious cleaning, but with VF detail and pass on it for maybe $100. Maybe im just much more collector than investor I suppose.
  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>If there were 2 coins in a dealer's case, the first was in a PCGS 12 holder, and the other was in an ANACS VF30 details, cleaned holder, and both were the same price, which would you buy as a collector, and which would you buy as strictly an investment? >>


    In nearly all cases I would choose a F12 with fewer problems than a harshly cleaned VF30, the exception being if there are details worn off on the F12, and I need to observe those details for study. In some varieties, I have a higher detail grade coin and a lower grade "problem free" coin. With some varieties R5+ or more you may not have a choice on quality, as they may be available only once every few years. The difference in price between PQ coins and problem coin has been widening, PQ is always a better investment and an easier coin to sell. In general, you will be more satisfied in the long term with a lower grade, higher quality coin.

    << <i>Do you guys think that problem coins will be more readily accepted by the coin collecting community as people start to realize there just arent enough original coins to go around? >>


    There are many problem coins in NGC and PCGS slabs, the slabs are not always a security blanket. In some cases raw coins can be a good deal, my last two were raw and nice. There are borderline coins that are not that bad, but a harshly cleaned coin will never be accepted, unless very rare. The discount for problem coins depends on the severity of the problem, and on the other end of the scale, I bid over 10x sheet for a Reiver coin of a rare die state and did not win the coin. There are no absolute answers to your questions.

    Draped bust half dollars are my favorite series, I have been specializing in them for about 10 years image
    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
  • ArtistArtist Posts: 2,013 ✭✭✭
    My passion is coin collecting, not coin selling - nevertheless selling is an integral part of collecting, and for that reason I prefer coins that sell themselves (i.e. liquid slabbed original material) over ones that need to be endlessly qualified (i.e. net-graded materialimage so I would go with the honest but lower graded example.
  • the age of the item should be considered when making this type of desicion, i always thought that pricesheets were for average coins, and i will go out on a limb and say that an average coin is cleaned, otherwise why would an original uncleaned coin be worth more ?? there arent a whole lot of draped bust anything that hasnt been cleaned at least once, in an effort to "boost" its appeal. it was common practice not long ago to clean coins, i would go with the higher grade cleaned coin, or take the lower grade but dont be surprised if when you try to slab it you find out that it has been cleaned as well. i enjoy coins for what they are, and i could care less if the coin has been gently cleaned in the 200 years since it was made. i know not everyone agrees with that, but then i dont lose any sleep at night wondering if all my "original" coins are actually original

  • I kind of like seated collector's view. After all, it is a fact that all the coins that used to be housed in the U.S. Mint cabinet were regularly cleaned. Also, I remember reading somewhere that nearly 99% of the national treasure coins in the Smithsonian wouldnt slab for the same reason! I have plenty of widget type coins in my collection, lots of PCGS/NGC 64 common date coins. They are pretty cool, but the fact is I most likely will never have the disposable cash for a 64 Draped bust quarter, or flowing hair half dime. I like seeing the details of a coin. I guess its more important for me to be able to read "e pluribus unum" on the banner in the eagle's mouth and deal with unnaturally shiny surfaces than to look at a dark, smooth metal slug.
  • jmcu12jmcu12 Posts: 2,452 ✭✭✭
    Original will sell faster and better, hands down. But if you buy smart, then you can still buy problem coins and get your money back down the line. That way you fill the hole AND retain value at the same time. Personally, when I am buying a problem coin I price it back two-three full grades. Example. NET AU coin would be priced at VF money. Of course this may vary depending upon he extent of the problems. But if we stay with cleaning or something like that, then 2-3 grades back still applies. And if they are trying to get problem-free AU money out of a coin that is VF then pass; its as simple as that.

    I have started, and am almost done with a damaged type set. Oddly enough the last two coins are a damaged draped bust half and a flowing hair dollar. I know the half will be far easier but to reiterate what someone else said, the hunt for a satisfying damaged flowing hair dollar (which also fits in my budget) will be very challenging but rewarding.
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  • DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I can only confidently answer part 1 of your question:

    if it's for my own collection, I would most likely choose the higher grade and cleaned coin.
    If for investment, or more specifically resale, then I would choose the problem free lower grade coin, as it is next to impossible to sell a problem coin.
    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

    "“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)

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  • To Tom B

    Maybe


  • << <i>To Tom B

    Maybe >>




    What am I missing?
  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,691 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I believe original, problem-free coins sell better in all grades than problem coins. >>

    this kind of answer illustrates the absurdity of much of the "advice" you have been given.

    if you are a coin collector, why in the he11 would you be buying coins w/ the main reason being whether they are easy to sell or not? if "moving it quickly" is such a concern, why would you be buying it in the 1st place?

    given the choice between a perfectly original f-12 half or a lightly cleaned vf-30 that is'nt ugly at the same price, id take the vf-30 every time. why? because a correctly graded f-12 is flat, while a correctly graded vf-30 gives you about 80% of the original detail that the mint intended you to see.

    the bonus is that alot of cleaned coins retone inalbums/envelopes to look basically indistinguishable from original - which increases the value considerably.



    << <i>problem-free, original coinage is much more liquid than any similar coin with problems >>

    compares apples to oranges. OF COURSE a cleaned f-12 is less desirable, less liquid then a problem-free f-12. but that wasn't the question! the issue was a problem-free f-12 vs. a cleaned VF-30.

    good luck on deciding which to buy.

    K S
  • dohdoh Posts: 6,457 ✭✭✭
    I'd ALWAYS buy a crusty original over a higher grade cleaned piece. I really am having trouble seeing the other side of the argument, but I guess I just think cleaned coins are ugly. So if I see one, I think, "yeah, nice detail, but look at the cleaning...just plain ugly." That's just my opinion though...I'm glad there are people out there to buy the cleaned stuff, leaves more nice coins for me :-)
    Positive BST transactions with: too many names to list! 36 at last count.
  • MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,550 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I believe original, problem-free coins sell better in all grades than problem coins. >>

    this kind of answer illustrates the absurdity of much of the "advice" you have been given.

    if you are a coin collector, why in the he11 would you be buying coins w/ the main reason being whether they are easy to sell or not? if "moving it quickly" is such a concern, why would you be buying it in the 1st place? >>


    Because - as "absurd" as this may sound - many collectors are always looking to upgrade the coins in their collections. The primary concern is not "moving it quickly", but rather being able to move it efficiently when I'm ready to upgrade without losing money...and even having the possibility of making money on the transaction.

    Since coins cost money, their value and liquidity often play a role in our decision to purchase. To think otherwise is naive, in my opinion.
  • As far as "easier to move", there is no doubt I could find a buyer at a fair price within 12 hours for an ANACS VF30 details draped bust half, but it could take weeks to find a buyer AT A FAIR PRICE to sell the same coin in a PCGS AU58.
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,799 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>As far as "easier to move", there is no doubt I could find a buyer at a fair price within 12 hours for an ANACS VF30 details draped bust half, but it could take weeks to find a buyer AT A FAIR PRICE to sell the same coin in a PCGS AU58. >>



    Despite the fact that a $300 coin should be more liquid and easier to sell than a $6000 coin, I could sell a DBH in AU-58 in one phone call (at a far price), and it would probably take me a week to sell the same DBH in an ANACS VF30 details.

    I liked Dorkkarl's response. As an experiment, I am tempted to buy some cleaned draped bust coins and put them in albums and envelopes and see what happens.
  • MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,550 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I liked Dorkkarl's response. As an experiment, I am tempted to buy some cleaned draped bust coins and put them in albums and envelopes and see what happens. >>


    Yes, but would that be ethical? image

    I know...completely different subject!
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,799 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I liked Dorkkarl's response. As an experiment, I am tempted to buy some cleaned draped bust coins and put them in albums and envelopes and see what happens. >>


    Yes, but would that be ethical? image

    I know...completely different subject! >>



    As far as I am concerned, unless there is an informed consent requirement for coins, you bet, it's ethical. It's been going on for generations, and many of our treasured "original" 18th and 19th century coins in PCGS/NGC plastic have probably been treated in such fashion at some point along the way.

  • It sure helps to have connections and be able to move a 6k coin with 1 phone call, but for the average 99% collector 1% dealer, like myself, I know that there is a far greater audience of prospective buyers of coins at $300 a whack than there are at 6k a whack. As much more collector than investor, I would rather have 1 each of the draped bust half dime through dollar in VF20 details that just one of those coins in a 58 slab. But thats what is so great about this hobby, there is something for everyone.
  • MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,550 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>I liked Dorkkarl's response. As an experiment, I am tempted to buy some cleaned draped bust coins and put them in albums and envelopes and see what happens. >>


    Yes, but would that be ethical? image

    I know...completely different subject! >>



    As far as I am concerned, unless there is an informed consent requirement for coins, you bet, it's ethical. It's been going on for generations, and many of our treasured "original" 18th and 19th century coins in PCGS/NGC plastic have probably been treated in such fashion at some point along the way. >>


    I'm sure that's true. I was being facetious. image
  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,691 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>I believe original, problem-free coins sell better in all grades than problem coins. >>

    this kind of answer illustrates the absurdity of much of the "advice" you have been given.

    if you are a coin collector, why in the he11 would you be buying coins w/ the main reason being whether they are easy to sell or not? if "moving it quickly" is such a concern, why would you be buying it in the 1st place? >>


    Because - as "absurd" as this may sound - many collectors are always looking to upgrade the coins in their collections. The primary concern is not "moving it quickly", but rather being able to move it efficiently when I'm ready to upgrade without losing money...and even having the possibility of making money on the transaction.

    Since coins cost money, their value and liquidity often play a role in our decision to purchase. To think otherwise is naive, in my opinion. >>

    if "liquidity" is so important, collect bullion. that's the best advice you can get.

    the problem is that you don't know how to collect. if you are so often having to move coins that "efficiency" is SOOOO important, then you are buying the wrong coins. it is almost always better to buy the right coin ONCE. the fact that your moving coins in & out so often should clue you in that you do not have good goals for your collection.

    the issue isn't "liquidity", the issue is that you are pursuing the hobby inefficiently to begin with.

    btw, this is not trying to be mean. i'm really trying to help you take a step back & reevaluation your collecting goals & ambitions.

    K S
  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭
    If I'm motivated primarily by investment potential, I take the original coin hands down.

    As for my collection, it depends on how harshly the coin is cleaned and how much it detracts from the surfaces of the coin. If the cleaning wasn't too harsh and the surfaces were otherwise decent and mark-free, I might consider the higher-graded cleaned coin -- and if I did, I'd probably crack the coin out to allow it to "breathe" and retone over the years.

    If the cleaned coin was a harshly brightened, badly cleaned coin, I'd not consider it for investment *or* for my personal collection.

    All coins have to be compared on their own merits, and not all "cleaned" coins are created equal. I've seen coins in ANACS and NCS "cleaned" holders which barely show evidence of a cleaning, and if they can be purchased at large discounts, they may be worth considering.
  • MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,550 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>if "liquidity" is so important, collect bullion. that's the best advice you can get.

    the problem is that you don't know how to collect. if you are so often having to move coins that "efficiency" is SOOOO important, then you are buying the wrong coins. it is almost always better to buy the right coin ONCE. the fact that your moving coins in & out so often should clue you in that you do not have good goals for your collection.

    the issue isn't "liquidity", the issue is that you are pursuing the hobby inefficiently to begin with.

    btw, this is not trying to be mean. i'm really trying to help you take a step back & reevaluation your collecting goals & ambitions.

    K S >>



    dorkkarl - I'm confused. You posted a response to what I had written in my previous post and yet you seem to be trying to give advice to gecko109.

    Whether you were talking to me or to gecko109...either way, telling somebody that they don't know how to collect or that they don't have good goals for their collection is arrogant and insulting, even if you aren't trying to be mean.

    If you were simply giving advice to gecko109, then fair enough...he asked for advice by posting this thread.

    If, however, you were talking to me, then (and I'll put this as friendly and politely as I can)...mind your own business.
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,704 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It depends on the specific coins.

    Light cleanings really don't bother me because I know how easy they are
    to wear off. Bad cleanings annoy me as much as most collectors probably.

    Anything that doesn't damage the real integrity of the coin is OK and even
    spots and stains can be OK if not too dramatic or dark. There is such a deep
    discount for problem coins that they are often the better deal if you can ac-
    cept or mitigate the flaws. Don't buy a specimen you don't like for your coll-
    ection since you'll probably like it even less as time goes by.

    Tempus fugit.

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