Two part question on "problem" coins.
gecko109
Posts: 8,231 ✭
I often struggle as a collector between high grade but cleaned type coins, and lower grade original coins. Like most people, I dont have a bottomless wallet, so my question is twofold. Lets use a draped bust half as an example (one of my favorite coins). If there were 2 coins in a dealer's case, the first was in a PCGS 12 holder, and the other was in an ANACS VF30 details, cleaned holder, and both were the same price, which would you buy as a collector, and which would you buy as strictly an investment?
Secondly, it seems that there just are not enough problem free original type coins to go around when we are talking about draped bust, and flowing hair coinage. I'd guesstimate that for every 20 raw examples of this type of coinage, maybe just 1 would slab. And that may be a generous guess! Do you guys think that problem coins will be more readily accepted by the coin collecting community as people start to realize there just arent enough original coins to go around?
Thirdly, what realistic type of discount from sheet should a raw coin that has just minor problems (just enough not to slab) justify? Again, im talking about draped and flowing hair coins. Or is full sheet expected for the details grade, and 150-200% of sheet for original, problem free coins?
Thanks in advance for your opinions!
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Comments
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
1. I would take the PCGS 12 problem free coin. The only time I would buy a known problem coin is if the coin were so rare I'd never be able to afford - or never get another chance to buy a better example. And I believe original, problem-free coins sell better in all grades than problem coins.
2. The coin collecting community is very fluid and there will always be people who are willing to compromise with a problem coin just to fill a hole in their collections. However, not having enough original coins to go around adds to the excitement of the hunt - which for me is one of the best parts of collecting. But, in general, common-date problem coins will never enjoy wide acceptance in the hobby IMO.
3. I have no idea...and I wouldn't try to assign a percentage discount accross the board. It greatly depends on the individual coin and the timing of the purchase.
Sounds like some good advice. Its just so hard for me to walk into a coinshop and see an 1837 seated dime thats had an obvious cleaning, but with VF detail and pass on it for maybe $100. Maybe im just much more collector than investor I suppose.
<< <i>If there were 2 coins in a dealer's case, the first was in a PCGS 12 holder, and the other was in an ANACS VF30 details, cleaned holder, and both were the same price, which would you buy as a collector, and which would you buy as strictly an investment? >>
In nearly all cases I would choose a F12 with fewer problems than a harshly cleaned VF30, the exception being if there are details worn off on the F12, and I need to observe those details for study. In some varieties, I have a higher detail grade coin and a lower grade "problem free" coin. With some varieties R5+ or more you may not have a choice on quality, as they may be available only once every few years. The difference in price between PQ coins and problem coin has been widening, PQ is always a better investment and an easier coin to sell. In general, you will be more satisfied in the long term with a lower grade, higher quality coin.
<< <i>Do you guys think that problem coins will be more readily accepted by the coin collecting community as people start to realize there just arent enough original coins to go around? >>
There are many problem coins in NGC and PCGS slabs, the slabs are not always a security blanket. In some cases raw coins can be a good deal, my last two were raw and nice. There are borderline coins that are not that bad, but a harshly cleaned coin will never be accepted, unless very rare. The discount for problem coins depends on the severity of the problem, and on the other end of the scale, I bid over 10x sheet for a Reiver coin of a rare die state and did not win the coin. There are no absolute answers to your questions.
Draped bust half dollars are my favorite series, I have been specializing in them for about 10 years
>>>My Collection
I kind of like seated collector's view. After all, it is a fact that all the coins that used to be housed in the U.S. Mint cabinet were regularly cleaned. Also, I remember reading somewhere that nearly 99% of the national treasure coins in the Smithsonian wouldnt slab for the same reason! I have plenty of widget type coins in my collection, lots of PCGS/NGC 64 common date coins. They are pretty cool, but the fact is I most likely will never have the disposable cash for a 64 Draped bust quarter, or flowing hair half dime. I like seeing the details of a coin. I guess its more important for me to be able to read "e pluribus unum" on the banner in the eagle's mouth and deal with unnaturally shiny surfaces than to look at a dark, smooth metal slug.
I have started, and am almost done with a damaged type set. Oddly enough the last two coins are a damaged draped bust half and a flowing hair dollar. I know the half will be far easier but to reiterate what someone else said, the hunt for a satisfying damaged flowing hair dollar (which also fits in my budget) will be very challenging but rewarding.
if it's for my own collection, I would most likely choose the higher grade and cleaned coin.
If for investment, or more specifically resale, then I would choose the problem free lower grade coin, as it is next to impossible to sell a problem coin.
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Maybe
<< <i>To Tom B
Maybe >>
What am I missing?
<< <i>I believe original, problem-free coins sell better in all grades than problem coins. >>
this kind of answer illustrates the absurdity of much of the "advice" you have been given.
if you are a coin collector, why in the he11 would you be buying coins w/ the main reason being whether they are easy to sell or not? if "moving it quickly" is such a concern, why would you be buying it in the 1st place?
given the choice between a perfectly original f-12 half or a lightly cleaned vf-30 that is'nt ugly at the same price, id take the vf-30 every time. why? because a correctly graded f-12 is flat, while a correctly graded vf-30 gives you about 80% of the original detail that the mint intended you to see.
the bonus is that alot of cleaned coins retone inalbums/envelopes to look basically indistinguishable from original - which increases the value considerably.
<< <i>problem-free, original coinage is much more liquid than any similar coin with problems >>
compares apples to oranges. OF COURSE a cleaned f-12 is less desirable, less liquid then a problem-free f-12. but that wasn't the question! the issue was a problem-free f-12 vs. a cleaned VF-30.
good luck on deciding which to buy.
K S
<< <i>
<< <i>I believe original, problem-free coins sell better in all grades than problem coins. >>
this kind of answer illustrates the absurdity of much of the "advice" you have been given.
if you are a coin collector, why in the he11 would you be buying coins w/ the main reason being whether they are easy to sell or not? if "moving it quickly" is such a concern, why would you be buying it in the 1st place? >>
Because - as "absurd" as this may sound - many collectors are always looking to upgrade the coins in their collections. The primary concern is not "moving it quickly", but rather being able to move it efficiently when I'm ready to upgrade without losing money...and even having the possibility of making money on the transaction.
Since coins cost money, their value and liquidity often play a role in our decision to purchase. To think otherwise is naive, in my opinion.
<< <i>As far as "easier to move", there is no doubt I could find a buyer at a fair price within 12 hours for an ANACS VF30 details draped bust half, but it could take weeks to find a buyer AT A FAIR PRICE to sell the same coin in a PCGS AU58. >>
Despite the fact that a $300 coin should be more liquid and easier to sell than a $6000 coin, I could sell a DBH in AU-58 in one phone call (at a far price), and it would probably take me a week to sell the same DBH in an ANACS VF30 details.
I liked Dorkkarl's response. As an experiment, I am tempted to buy some cleaned draped bust coins and put them in albums and envelopes and see what happens.
<< <i>I liked Dorkkarl's response. As an experiment, I am tempted to buy some cleaned draped bust coins and put them in albums and envelopes and see what happens. >>
Yes, but would that be ethical?
I know...completely different subject!
<< <i>
<< <i>I liked Dorkkarl's response. As an experiment, I am tempted to buy some cleaned draped bust coins and put them in albums and envelopes and see what happens. >>
Yes, but would that be ethical?
I know...completely different subject! >>
As far as I am concerned, unless there is an informed consent requirement for coins, you bet, it's ethical. It's been going on for generations, and many of our treasured "original" 18th and 19th century coins in PCGS/NGC plastic have probably been treated in such fashion at some point along the way.
It sure helps to have connections and be able to move a 6k coin with 1 phone call, but for the average 99% collector 1% dealer, like myself, I know that there is a far greater audience of prospective buyers of coins at $300 a whack than there are at 6k a whack. As much more collector than investor, I would rather have 1 each of the draped bust half dime through dollar in VF20 details that just one of those coins in a 58 slab. But thats what is so great about this hobby, there is something for everyone.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I liked Dorkkarl's response. As an experiment, I am tempted to buy some cleaned draped bust coins and put them in albums and envelopes and see what happens. >>
Yes, but would that be ethical?
I know...completely different subject! >>
As far as I am concerned, unless there is an informed consent requirement for coins, you bet, it's ethical. It's been going on for generations, and many of our treasured "original" 18th and 19th century coins in PCGS/NGC plastic have probably been treated in such fashion at some point along the way. >>
I'm sure that's true. I was being facetious.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I believe original, problem-free coins sell better in all grades than problem coins. >>
this kind of answer illustrates the absurdity of much of the "advice" you have been given.
if you are a coin collector, why in the he11 would you be buying coins w/ the main reason being whether they are easy to sell or not? if "moving it quickly" is such a concern, why would you be buying it in the 1st place? >>
Because - as "absurd" as this may sound - many collectors are always looking to upgrade the coins in their collections. The primary concern is not "moving it quickly", but rather being able to move it efficiently when I'm ready to upgrade without losing money...and even having the possibility of making money on the transaction.
Since coins cost money, their value and liquidity often play a role in our decision to purchase. To think otherwise is naive, in my opinion. >>
if "liquidity" is so important, collect bullion. that's the best advice you can get.
the problem is that you don't know how to collect. if you are so often having to move coins that "efficiency" is SOOOO important, then you are buying the wrong coins. it is almost always better to buy the right coin ONCE. the fact that your moving coins in & out so often should clue you in that you do not have good goals for your collection.
the issue isn't "liquidity", the issue is that you are pursuing the hobby inefficiently to begin with.
btw, this is not trying to be mean. i'm really trying to help you take a step back & reevaluation your collecting goals & ambitions.
K S
As for my collection, it depends on how harshly the coin is cleaned and how much it detracts from the surfaces of the coin. If the cleaning wasn't too harsh and the surfaces were otherwise decent and mark-free, I might consider the higher-graded cleaned coin -- and if I did, I'd probably crack the coin out to allow it to "breathe" and retone over the years.
If the cleaned coin was a harshly brightened, badly cleaned coin, I'd not consider it for investment *or* for my personal collection.
All coins have to be compared on their own merits, and not all "cleaned" coins are created equal. I've seen coins in ANACS and NCS "cleaned" holders which barely show evidence of a cleaning, and if they can be purchased at large discounts, they may be worth considering.
<< <i>if "liquidity" is so important, collect bullion. that's the best advice you can get.
the problem is that you don't know how to collect. if you are so often having to move coins that "efficiency" is SOOOO important, then you are buying the wrong coins. it is almost always better to buy the right coin ONCE. the fact that your moving coins in & out so often should clue you in that you do not have good goals for your collection.
the issue isn't "liquidity", the issue is that you are pursuing the hobby inefficiently to begin with.
btw, this is not trying to be mean. i'm really trying to help you take a step back & reevaluation your collecting goals & ambitions.
K S >>
dorkkarl - I'm confused. You posted a response to what I had written in my previous post and yet you seem to be trying to give advice to gecko109.
Whether you were talking to me or to gecko109...either way, telling somebody that they don't know how to collect or that they don't have good goals for their collection is arrogant and insulting, even if you aren't trying to be mean.
If you were simply giving advice to gecko109, then fair enough...he asked for advice by posting this thread.
If, however, you were talking to me, then (and I'll put this as friendly and politely as I can)...mind your own business.
Light cleanings really don't bother me because I know how easy they are
to wear off. Bad cleanings annoy me as much as most collectors probably.
Anything that doesn't damage the real integrity of the coin is OK and even
spots and stains can be OK if not too dramatic or dark. There is such a deep
discount for problem coins that they are often the better deal if you can ac-
cept or mitigate the flaws. Don't buy a specimen you don't like for your coll-
ection since you'll probably like it even less as time goes by.