Am I really " clueless " about Basketball? Hoops fans jump in!

TheThrill

O.K.

Let me start by saying that I have never tried to pretend I am an encyclopedia of knowledge about Basketball. My knowledge of the sport is just what I watch. Im not much of a stat hound. Of course I know the BIG names. I know a few records. But, not much of a historian. Not at all actually. I know more about hockey.

But, I did watch a ton of Basketball in the 80's. All through highschool and then some.

Did anyone ever see that comercial where the guy was caught talking out his A$$ about sports? And how all he needed to do was watch sportscenter so he wouldnt sound like a total BS master? Everyone just looked at him as though he was public idiot number 1?

That happened to me a few days ago. Conversation was..... Name your All Time Starting Team. ALL TIME. One player per position. 5 Total. As a fan of the 80's, I picked All 80's guys. Many thought I was on CRACK.

Am I ?

Center. Hakeem Alajuwon
Forward Larry Bird
Forward Karl Malone
Guard Michael Jordan
Guard Magic Johnson

Yes, I have heard of Wilt Chamberlain and Shaquille O'Neal at center. With the exception of Jordan. I was basically told this team would get mopped up. What dont I get? Are they too small? What gives?

I know Malone never won anything, but they were all winners. Leaders. Class through and through. Great team players. At least that's what I remember about all of them.

frankhardy

Your team isn't bad at all. There will be many differences in our lists, but that's the fun of it. One thing I think is for sure - Michael Jordan should be on EVERYONES list. That is, of course, my humble opinion.

After Jordan, it gets really tough for me. I could go several different directions. Do I chose the best guards or do I chose the best shooting guard and the best point guard? Same with power forward and small forward.

I've made my decision. It's very hard for me to leave Kobe Bryant out.

G - Michael Jordan (the best there ever was - the best there ever will be)
G - Magic Johnson (over Kobe because he is a point guard and would compliment Jordan perfectly)
C - Bill Russell (I normally think that Wilt was the better player, but this team needs defense in the middle)
F - Karl Malone (name a more powerful power forward)
F - Larry Bird (over Julius Erving because Bird can shoot from the outside)

BobaFett72

im going to 2nd Franks list. Thats an unstoppable team.

ArnyVee

Frank's team is just about perfect.

frankhardy

<< <i>Frank's team is just about perfect. >>



But, of course!

stown

<< <i>Center. Hakeem Alajuwon [sic - Olajuwon]
Forward Larry Bird
Forward Karl Malone
Guard Michael Jordan
Guard Magic Johnson >>



Probably switch out Malone with Duncan but otherwise, the team would be un-beat-able, ESPECIALLY with Dream at Center

IrishMike

Michael, for obvious reasons
Oscar Robertson, if you saw him play you'd pick him over Magic
Kareem, best all around offensive and defensive center
Dr. J, like Oscar left you in awe
Duncan, look at the championships

rajah424

How can you have a greatest ever team without Ichiro!

frankhardy

<< <i>How can you have a greatest ever team without Ichiro! >>



I forgot about Pele, as well! My bad!

Ahmanfan

PG- Stockton
SG- Jordan
SF- Bird
PF- Duncan
C- Chamberlain

DrJ

PG-- Oscar Robertson (Averaged a Triple Double for a season)
SG-- Michael Jordan (Best Offensive Guard All Time, Great Defender early in his career)
SF -- Bird (Best Shooter at Forward, I need someone to keep the Defense honest when the double up on Wilt)
PF -- Tim Duncan (Mr. Fundamental, the definition of a team player)
C-- Wilt Chamberlain (Averaged 30 PPG and 23 RPG for Career, Changed the Game)

TomGshotput

F Duncan
F Bird
C O'Neal
G Jordan
G Johnson

Similar reason that makes Jordan the best ever also makes O'Neal the best center ever. Jordan was Finals MVP six times, O'Neal he was the best player on the court the four times the Lakers went to the Finals. Plus he was the best player on the Heat during the 2005-06 regular season when they won the Championship and with the Magic the year they lost. Although Russell may have done even better than that, he did so along side better teammates and against lesser competition

Johnson is the second best player ever

Hoopster

Any team that does not include Jordan, Magic, and Bird is simply not the best team. Those are three guys with size that were basically impossible to defend against. They could all shoot from every spot on the floor, post up, and pass. They were all major matchup problems for opposing teams. They could all excel in any type of basketball offense. They could also play multiple positions(mainly Magic and Jordan). AND THEY CAN ALL SHOOT FREE THROWS!

Defensively Jordan needs no elaboration. Magic and Bird weren't quite in the same class defensivley as Jordan, but they were good enough.

After those three spots are CEMENTED, then you could fill your team out with a number of options, none of which are as important as those three.

I would be concerened to put Bill Russell at center because I don't see him stopping offensively gifted seven footers ala Kareem(who would be my choice anyway). I could see the 'second' NBA team with Kareem picking on a first team with Russell at center. I could see Russell having trouble with Mark Eaton or Rik Smits.

I don't want Shaq, as given the wrong set of referees he could be in trouble...and no best ever team should have a liability on the court in the waning seconds.

Power forward could be Malone. I wouldn't even mind having McHale. But I think Tim Duncan gets the nod.

Jordan
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Jabbar


Lets face it, size means a lot.

Again, everything runs through Jordan, Magic, and Bird. No other possible combination of players presents as big a problem as trying to defend those three guys within an offense.

-skinpinch

frankhardy

I don't have a problem substituting Jabbar for Russell. I agree - it all starts with Jordan, Magic, and Bird.

TheThrill

Good to see that I am not totally out of the loop on basketball.


Funny thing is that the other players mentioned were about the same as my conversation.

Basically saying that Shaq takes bigger dumps than Alajuwon weighs. And that Hakeem was great in his day. But wouldnt last the half going up against Shaq or Wilt.

Same exact words about Oscar Robertson. That he was Magic before Magic.

Also heard that ANY team without Kobe is NO team at all. And Malone was the Barry Bonds of basketball.

Everyone agreed on Jordan though. Most on Bird. Unless your a Laker fan.

stown

<< <i>Basically saying that Shaq takes bigger dumps than Alajuwon weighs. And that Hakeem was great in his day. But wouldnt last the half going up against Shaq or Wilt. >>



Back in his prime, Dream could take ANYONE, period.

And as for Shaq, we swept him in '95, just in case you forgot.

BobaFett72

no way shaq is the starter on this team. lol.

IrishMike

baseball you sure got your big girl panties in a bind over Magic. Here is a direct quote from nba.com and a link. I am guessing you are to young to have seen his entire career. Fortunately for me I grew up in Indiana and saw the big O and Bird play from high school on. Anyway the question was, what is your all time team. You have yours I have mine and any day Oscar was more fun to watch.

From nba.com:

Oscar Robertson
Oscar Robertson, the "Big O," is the player against whom all others labeled "all-around" are judged, and he may remain the standard forever. Statistically, one need look no further than the numbers Robertson put up in 1961-62, just his second year in the league: 30.8 points, 12.5 rebounds, and 11.4 assists per game-an average of a triple-double for an entire season. Not even Magic Johnson or Larry Bird could match those numbers. During his 14-year NBA career with the Cincinnati Royals and the Milwaukee Bucks, Robertson amassed 26,710 points. more...nba.com

I seriously doubt that all and maybe most of old time players would agree with you, especially those that played against or with Oscar and please give me a list of the experts you relied upon in making your quote.

Hoopster

Measuring basketball players with numbers isn't quite as accurate as baseball, but it is not without merit. I want to talk about Oscar Robertson and his triple double average in his second season.

First, a triple double is just an arbitrary measurement level. It is putting a guy who averages 10 points, 10 assists, and 10 boards in some better light than a guy who averages 35 points(with a higher shooting percentage), 6 assists, and 6 boards. All else being equal, the guy who didn't average the triple double is the better player in this case.

But lets examine Robertson's triple double season. He averaged 12.4 boards, 11 assists, and 30.8 points witha .478 FG%....a HOF season by all accounts. But it is the fact that he averaged a triple double that the season is remembered...as others have had better seasons with no triple double.

In 1981, Magic averged 9.6 rebounds, 9.5 assists, and 18.6 points with a .537 Fg%. No triple double, but darn close. BUT, lets examine it a bit further!

In Robertson's season the league averaged 119 points a game, and shot 43% from the field.
In Magic man's season the league averaged 108 points a game, and shot 49% from the field.

Just based on this simple league information, and not even getting into the fact that Robertson competed against smaller players(and less qualified ones too), what can one deduce?

With defenses allowing that many more points a game, that gives more assist chances. With defenses allowing that many more shots per game AND at a significantly lower field goal percentage, it gives that many more rebounds per game for a player to get!

Knowing this information, Magic's near triple double in 1981 is just as impressive as Robertson's achieved triple double in 1961.

All other factors like level of competition, and height of competition makes Magic's even more impressive.





MORE:

We all know that NBA teams take the night off defensively quite often, and unlike baseball, the playoff numbers of an NBA player are pretty telling because they are playing against teams that aren't exactly taking the night off(and it consists of a lot of games where chance is eliminated).

Magic had no dropoff in playoffs, while Robertson experienced a drop off in all three categories and FG%.

Incredibly, Michael Jordan increased his scoring and play in the playoffs, and he had to do it often against defensive minded teams that didn't allow as many points and were very physical. And he didn't do it at the expense of winning, which is often the case in basketball. Players can easily amass points and other stuff at the expense of winning the game.

The one point I will say against Magic is that he didn't have the same tough defensive minded teams to go through that Jordan did. The West Conf. was much more wide open then.

DrJ

Love these threads.




<< <i>Measuring basketball players with numbers isn't quite as accurate as baseball, but it is not without merit. I want to talk about Oscar Robertson and his triple double average in his second season.

First, a triple double is just an arbitrary measurement level. It is putting a guy who averages 10 points, 10 assists, and 10 boards in some better light than a guy who averages 35 points(with a higher shooting percentage), 6 assists, and 6 boards. All else being equal, the guy who didn't average the triple double is the better player in this case. >>



Only problem with this statement is there are no players who average 10 pts 10 assists and 10 reb. To do that while averaging a high shooting percentage and scoring a load of points makes it even more impressive.

Oscar would start for my team, and Magic would come off the bench. Magic was defintely the best PG or his generation, and number 2 all time. He showed a big guy could run an offense (which has been attempted to be replicated, but with all greats, there is only one original).

J

GOODLIEU

1) Oscar Robertson
2) Michael Jordan
3) Larry Bird
4) Tim Duncan
5) Wilt Chamberlain
Sixth Man: Kevin McHale

IrishMike

baseball, for whatever my opinion is worth its based upon watching them both play, only quoted nba.com and their stats to point out I am not alone in my view. You have to be careful of stats anyway, Oscar did not have the benefit of all the talent LA surrounded Magic with. Again I saw Wilt play, in fact saw him in Chigaco against the Bulls in the Sloan days and only saw Lew (as he was known at the time) play in person in college. Wilt was not a good defensive player, had no shot and in my view benefited mostly from his huge size advantage more than anything. At least Kareem played good defense and his hook shot was not stoppable. Had he played on teams that required him to score more he certainly could have. Once again you have to take a close look at the talent surrounding the player.

While there is no doubt Bird was a great player I wonder if he had not been surrounded by McHale, Parrish and others would he be considered better than some of the other players listed. I have no grudge against Bird as I am a Hoosier too.

GOODLIEU

There is a great book about the topic discussed in this thread written by Elliott Kalb called "Who's Better Who's Best in Basketball published by McGraw-Hill. If you get a chance check it out as it is a very informative and entertaining read.