When veterans on this board tell you not to buy key coins raw on EBay . . .
Mercfan
Posts: 701 ✭✭
You might want to pay better attention than I did last week.
Yesterday I received in the mail a 1931-S Lincoln described as red-brown AU, whose image I liked very much in the EBay listing. The image in the EBay listing looked browner than what I'd call RB, but the coin had strong AU-58 details. The coin that arrived was actually much more orange in color than the image appeared, and it lacked any hint of original luster that should have been on a coin that age and that un-browned. In addition, there was on the reverse some mottled blue coloring that one sees on early Lincolns that have, let's say, had their hygiene attended to. When I took a careful look at the surfaces with my 17X loop, I found a lot of fine hairlines. I called the seller, and told him that I would have to take advantage of his return policy because the coin had been cleaned. He laughed scornfully, telling me that there was no way that coin had been cleaned--and suggested that I must have just expected an MS-66 coin instead of what I got. I was in the process of explaining that I'd seen a lot of Lincolns and that I just would never believe those surfaces could ever make it into PCGS plastic (at any grade), when he hung up on me. Back it went in yesterday's mail, and I've got to say that I strongly suspect that the seller knew he was listing a coin that has been messed with.
Today's mail brought a low VF 1909-S Lincoln that I also had liked the look of in the EBay listing--though I was a bit suspicious of the location of the mint mark--lower and farther right than any others I've seen. But the seller promised full refund if unsatisfied for any reason, so I took a chance. In hand, the mint mark appears to have MUCH less wear than the numerals of the date. And the mint mark is rotated clockwise from true vertical. And on 17X inspection, the mint mark is surrounded by an area of the field that is a slightly lighter color than the rest of the field. I'm no expert on added mint marks, but that was too many red flags for me. I called the seller, and he was apologetic and seemed shocked and disappointed that the coin might not be genuine. I believe that he was duped when he bought it and had no idea that the coin is in any way questionable.
Sorry, no pictures, as I don't have a setting that captures that degree of detail--and I wouldn't have wasted the time photographing these send-backs even if I did.
Bottom line: They're not kidding when they say buyer beware on raw offerings on the Web.
Yesterday I received in the mail a 1931-S Lincoln described as red-brown AU, whose image I liked very much in the EBay listing. The image in the EBay listing looked browner than what I'd call RB, but the coin had strong AU-58 details. The coin that arrived was actually much more orange in color than the image appeared, and it lacked any hint of original luster that should have been on a coin that age and that un-browned. In addition, there was on the reverse some mottled blue coloring that one sees on early Lincolns that have, let's say, had their hygiene attended to. When I took a careful look at the surfaces with my 17X loop, I found a lot of fine hairlines. I called the seller, and told him that I would have to take advantage of his return policy because the coin had been cleaned. He laughed scornfully, telling me that there was no way that coin had been cleaned--and suggested that I must have just expected an MS-66 coin instead of what I got. I was in the process of explaining that I'd seen a lot of Lincolns and that I just would never believe those surfaces could ever make it into PCGS plastic (at any grade), when he hung up on me. Back it went in yesterday's mail, and I've got to say that I strongly suspect that the seller knew he was listing a coin that has been messed with.
Today's mail brought a low VF 1909-S Lincoln that I also had liked the look of in the EBay listing--though I was a bit suspicious of the location of the mint mark--lower and farther right than any others I've seen. But the seller promised full refund if unsatisfied for any reason, so I took a chance. In hand, the mint mark appears to have MUCH less wear than the numerals of the date. And the mint mark is rotated clockwise from true vertical. And on 17X inspection, the mint mark is surrounded by an area of the field that is a slightly lighter color than the rest of the field. I'm no expert on added mint marks, but that was too many red flags for me. I called the seller, and he was apologetic and seemed shocked and disappointed that the coin might not be genuine. I believe that he was duped when he bought it and had no idea that the coin is in any way questionable.
Sorry, no pictures, as I don't have a setting that captures that degree of detail--and I wouldn't have wasted the time photographing these send-backs even if I did.
Bottom line: They're not kidding when they say buyer beware on raw offerings on the Web.
"Coin collecting problem"? What "coin collecting problem"?
0
Comments
Russ, NCNE
Do you have a link to the auction?
<< <i>I predict you'll have some more problems with the first person. >>
some members here though trust the plastic and gladly
accept it.
i myself, prefer not to have a broom stuck up my *** when purchasing
coins and have trained myself to understand grading.
Coins: US (122550)
When I add PCGS it goes down to 8039
When I add NGC it goes down to 7194
When I add ANACS it goes down to 1950
Those numbers say that less than 15 percent of the toal coins listed at this time have been graded by the big three. So as you said it is buyer beware on ebay. I am not saying that all the others are altered or cleaned coins I am just saying know what, and who you are dealing with. And look for the selleers conditions of sale.
Good luck to all the searchers it's still fun to find the one you really want at the price you want.
<< <i>Was the 1909 an S VDB? Hard to imagine adding an S to a non-VDB unless for practice. >>
That's one of the thoughts that I had as I was pondering the wisdom of purchasing the coin in the first place. And who'd go to the trouble of sticking an "S" onto a coin that had no VDB and is just a low VF? Nevertheless, in hand it looked way too fishy for me to accept it.
And to those who want to know who the first seller is, sorry. Though I'm just about 100% certain that the coin has altered surfaces, I could be mistaken. If I were, I'd be committing a serious injustice to the seller by pointing him out. I'd rather err on the side of not doing an injustice to someone. Suffice it to say that it's a good idea to buy from those with credible return policies.
Even if there was nothing wrong with the coin, the seller deserves to be outed for the way he treated you when you asked to return it.
Russ, NCNE
You do understand why Russ asks you to out the guy, don't you ?
It's honorable that you don't, but try to understand why Russ asks. The seller was rude and fired back at you as if you were guilty of something.
Even so, I think I'll wait a bit and see how this turns out. Maybe I just caught him at a really bad moment. Maybe he really believes that the coin is okay. Maybe he was so startled by my impression of the coin that he accidentally hung up the phone.
However, if he's anything but expeditious in refunding my purchase price, you can bet I'll tell you whom I'll never be doing business with again.
is it a respected forum member or something?
I like to think that I'm a pretty good guy- even in my absolute worst day on this planet, I would never treat someone like the way that yahoo treated you. FWIW...
<< <i>is it a respected forum member or something? >>
I have no idea whether or not the seller participates on these forums. He has a decent EBay feedback percentage.
Pardon my absence from this discussion while I step out for a four-mile walk.
Coin. Except you had more guts than I did to send back the coin and risk being out 2X your orig cost....after the seller hung up on you. At least Harbor was "smart" enough to avoid any form of communications with me for 30 days......when I finally negged them...and they provided a retaliatory neg once their email started working again......
I did what you did once in my past and ended up losing the coins and the money when the seller disappeared ($1000 loss). Never again would I risk that.
roadrunner
K S
Looks pretty good, huh? Here's what I got- The color was all wrong, but I submitted it to ANACS the same day it arrived for the variety:
I emailed the seller a couple of days ago and sent the pic of the slab- I let him know he was lucky the variety was there or it would've been on it's way back...I think this coin illustrates both sides of the arguement: you can find good coins on eBay, but you can get screwed as well...as for having a hole in the head- I have fun trying to cherrypick coins on eBay. I don't risk a lot of money, and to me, it's a better gamble than I make when I play blackjack or slots in Vegas...
--Christian
good luck with the refund. I look forward to hearing how it plays out for you.
<< <i>was there a return policy stated? sorry but if not, its your fault >>
Yup, return policy (three days, as I recall) was stated in the listing. No way I'd purchase a coin unseen without the prior understanding that I could return it for a full refund if I didn't like the look of it in hand.
I fully expect that both of these sellers will make good on their stated return policies.
food for thought- the last large show i went to Dealer A tells Dealer B something to the effect of " yeah it is a scudzy "good" at best, but I can list on ebay as a vg and people will bid it up. I my make money on these. those ebayers always want something for nothing anyway,.......they get what they deserve as far as I'm concerned..."
Dealer B I watched during all of this as I was viewing his display cases and I felt he was apalled with what he was hearing as was I. Dealer B is a good honest guy as far as my experiences. Dealer A, I could of strung up by his testicles at that moment and felt that would be what he deserved as far as I am concerned!
Dealer A and B are both well known and been around for years. The dealer B's are numerous out there and where do you think the garbage they scoop up at a show ends up? yep....Ebay.
<< <i>was there a return policy stated? sorry but if not, its your fault
K S >>
There was a return policy as stated in the OP.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>was there a return policy stated? sorry but if not, its your fault
K S >>
There was a return policy as stated in the OP. >>
the point is, here is the title of the thread: When veterans on this board tell you not to buy key coins raw on EBay . . .
what the he11 does "raw" have to do w/ the topic?
NOTHING
the issue is whether there's a valid return policy or not, not that the coin was "raw".
you can buy 1000s of raw key coins on ebay perfectly safely IF the return policy is valid
goes back to what i've said so many times: DO NOT BUY COINS SIGHT UNSEEN.
again, the issue is'nt that the coin was raw, the issue is that you bought it sight unseen
K S
Speaking of dealers... There is one in Omaha touted as being a GOOD dealer. I was shocked when I saw him recommended on the boards to someone in Iowa attempting to sell coins. I went to his store to buy gold. His response was : " I sell all my gold for stupid money on ebay". So now we know where stupid people shop and lousy dealers sell. (this transpired via intercom) I won't say his name, but his initials are ds... and the two times I've attempted to even talk to him, he's been arrogant and short. Once was at a show. I tried to give him a second chance and drove to his place of business during a lunch hour where he wouldn't even let me in his store to shop. He's a real $hit if you asked me and your post hits it on the head.
<< <i>what the he11 does "raw" have to do w/ the topic?
NOTHING
the issue is whether there's a valid return policy or not, not that the coin was "raw".
you can buy 1000s of raw key coins on ebay perfectly safely IF the return policy is valid
goes back to what i've said so many times: DO NOT BUY COINS SIGHT UNSEEN.
again, the issue is'nt that the coin was raw, the issue is that you bought it sight unseen
K S >>
Actually, the matter of a coin's being raw was central to the point of my original post. While it's a good idea (and, as far as I'm concerned, necessary) to have a valid return policy on any coin purchased sight unseen, my chief caveat involved raw coins purchased sight unseen. When you purchase coins in PCGS or NGC plastic, you have a pretty good likelihood of receiving coins that are 1) authentic, and 2) without altered surfaces.
Sure, the TPG plastic sometimes contains slightly overgraded stuff, and that makes a return policy a good idea for slabbed coins as well. But my eye-opening experience this week was having a highly suspect pair of surfaces and an added mintmark show up on consecutive days. I don't think that would ever happen if I bid only on PCGS-slabbed material. Hence my endorsement of those on the boards who've previously warned about the dangers of buying raw on EBay.
I wasn't, however, intending to advocate for never buying raw coins on EBay; I just want to help spread the word that when you do so you expose yourself to the very real risk of purchasing grossly misrepresented material.
Even with the return policy, I'm stuck with the disappointment of not receiving anything close to what I believed I had purchased, the cost of mailing and insuring, and the hassle of repackaging--not to mention the aggravation of the first dealer's response.
<< <i>Anyone purchasing raw coins on eBay has a hole in the head. The odds of getting anything good are stacked against you. >>
Crap. I'm bidding on 27 raw coins right now. Crap!
Ken
<< <i>glad to hear that they have a return policy though I frown on three day retunr policies.
food for thought- the last large show i went to Dealer A tells Dealer B something to the effect of " yeah it is a scudzy "good" at best, but I can list on ebay as a vg and people will bid it up. I my make money on these. those ebayers always want something for nothing anyway,.......they get what they deserve as far as I'm concerned..."
Dealer B I watched during all of this as I was viewing his display cases and I felt he was apalled with what he was hearing as was I. Dealer B is a good honest guy as far as my experiences. Dealer A, I could of strung up by his testicles at that moment and felt that would be what he deserved as far as I am concerned!
Dealer A and B are both well known and been around for years. The dealer B's are numerous out there and where do you think the garbage they scoop up at a show ends up? yep....Ebay. >>
It wasn't "Dennis", was it?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
There were very good detailed pics of it and IMO it was a virgin 64.
Paid a lot less than 64 $$ for it too.
Still have it to this day.
<< <i>
<< <i>Anyone purchasing raw coins on eBay has a hole in the head. The odds of getting anything good are stacked against you. >>
Crap. I'm bidding on 27 raw coins right now. Crap!
Ken >>
Ken you are screwed. Retract your bids now, or you might get grades like these (bought raw on ebay for $200 and $250):
1 13353014 9449 1936 50C York US MS66
2 13353015 9449 1936 50C York US MS67
or are unable or unwilling to trust their own grading eye. I average $1.41 received
for every dollar spent on coins for resale. And my eyes aren't so pretty good.
I'm glad to hear the naysayers grumble, more coins for me.
Steve
<< <i>People who refuse to buy raw coins on eBay are either stewing from a bad buy
or are unable or unwilling to trust their own grading eye.....
I'm glad to hear the naysayers grumble, more coins for me.Steve >>
I am one of the naysayers, and don't have trouble grading what I collect (mostly 19th-century). Many people do---just look at the recent post about an 1820 large cent or another about a CC Morgan dollar, for example. You stated that you make >40% on your money---that's great, but many (if not most) other eBay buyers are buying junk or getting overgraded coins because of the rampant misrepresentation that is going on. Consider that advertised large cent, dated 1820 and raw---it looks uncirculated, with multi-colored toning. Prospective buyers should ask themselves why is this coin being offered raw (i.e., not certified by eBay-accepted TPGs)? A number of people posted responses, and most opined that the color was off (due to a cleaning and retoning), a big help to the poster of the thread. However, there are many cases where images on your computer screen are insufficient to spot problems (especially hairlines or reduced luster) that can seriously affect grades/prices.
I have talked to more than a dozen B&M dealers about eBay, and their unanimous verdict is that it's frequently used by B&M dealers to unload their junk (items that won't sell in a face-to-face transaction). I don't use eBay simply because I went through a junk/low-end accumulation phase when I was much younger and extremely price-conscious. I spent a fair bit of time weeding my collection and starting over when I started collecting again last January. Now I refuse to buy coins on a sight-unseen basis (this includes slabbed coins) unless they are from a handful of dealers that I trust.
There are very good deals on eBay, to be sure, but they are few and far between. You mostly get what you pay for when buying coins (but only if you're lucky and have done your homework).
<< <i>I have talked to more than a dozen B&M dealers about eBay, and their unanimous verdict is that it's frequently used by B&M dealers to unload their junk (items that won't sell in a face-to-face transaction). I don't use eBay simply because I went through a junk/low-end accumulation phase when I was much younger and extremely price-conscious. I spent a fair bit of time weeding my collection and starting over when I started collecting again last January. Now I refuse to buy coins on a sight-unseen basis (this includes slabbed coins) unless they are from a handful of dealers that I trust.
There are very good deals on eBay, to be sure, but they are few and far between. You mostly get what you pay for when buying coins (but only if you're lucky and have done your homework). >>
The key to buying raw coins on eBay is to NOT buy them from coin dealers (unless you see a variety cherrypick).
<< <i>why is it that everyone that buys raw coins on ebay should expect them to slab and be worth 10 times what you paid for them ?? >>
There's a difference between those who are chasing the big score, and buyers who would simply like a little honesty from the seller. There are plenty of both, and stating that "everyone" that buys raw coins is in the former category is a false assumption.
Russ, NCNE