Rare Coin?

gecko109

As collectors and part-time dealers, I just want to know what your definition of a "rare coin' actually is. Is this something that can be quantified by original mintages? Survivor rates? Scarcity relative to demand? Just as an example, is a 1916-D dime, with a mintage just north of 250,000 considered a "rare" coin? What about an 1857 half cent? Your thoughts on this subject are appreciated.

As a fun bonus, the poster who gives me the most satisfying DEFINITION of what a "rare U.S. coin" actually is will receive a common date avg circ LWH.

theboz11

A rare coin is one that YOU want and so does everyone else.

LanLord

Unfortunately, RARE COIN is probably nothing in my collection

STONE

Basically, it's any coin that is deemed hard to find for a given series.

Coins don't necessarily have to have a low mintage, just a small survival rate. Also, part of the population deals with a higher priced coin and large demand thus driving the price of the coin upward.

Take for instance the 1933 Double Eagle: original mintage of 445,500 and only 1 coin is in public hands, 10 more are in a court battle, and one or two more are a at the Smithsonian (I believe).

I would not call the 1916-D or the 09-S VDB scarce, they are just the key dates of the series and collector demand has driven the price of these coins up.

holeinone1972

<< <i>to me, something that is rare has 12 or fewer known examples. The coins with just one or two known examples (or known "legal to own" examples) are ultra rarities in my book. >>




Needless to say I cannot subscribe (financially) to barndog's definition.

To me, anything past 1957 is rare. LOL

Barndog

to me, something that is rare has 12 or fewer known examples. The coins with just one or two known examples (or known "legal to own" examples) are ultra rarities in my book.

jdillane

A rare coin relatively speaking is one where supply exceeds demand.

Barndog

<< <i>

<< <i>to me, something that is rare has 12 or fewer known examples. The coins with just one or two known examples (or known "legal to own" examples) are ultra rarities in my book. >>




Needless to say I cannot subscribe (financially) to barndog's definition.

To me, anything past 1957 is rare. LOL >>



how did you know what I was going to say

gecko109

I suppose I started this thread because it seems to me the term "rare" is used with extreme frequency when regarding coins. Its hard to find the moniker "coin dealer" without finding the term "rare" in there somewhere. My personal most rare coin is an 1895 quarter eagle with mintage of 6,199. I would certainley assume that qualifies as rare, or does it? Still waiting for the best definition.

TwoSides2aCoin

What Barndog said.

ironhorse19

<< <i>Still waiting for the best definition. >>



Ok...I'll give this a shot:

1) Limited number exist in collectors' hands
2) Very difficult to find, denoting a high degree of scarcity, highly prized
3) Marked by an uncommon quality; especially superlative or extreme of its kind

theboz11

gecko- your 1895 quarter eagle is not RARE to me at all. I don't collect those. A 1933 StG is no more rare in that thought. If you don't collect, or no one has an interest in the coin, it's number is inconsequential.

19Lyds

Culled from the pages of EBay:



<< <i>below is a list of the (R) RARITY SCALE:

R-1 Common
R-2 Not So Common
R-3 Scarce
R-4 Very Scarce (population est. at 76-200)
R-5 Rare (31-75)
R-6 Very Rare (13-30)
R-7 Extremely rare (4-12)
R-8 Unique or Nearly So (1, 2 or 3)

You can verify if a seller is giving you the real (R), or if you're a seller, you can look-up the (R) of your coin by visiting 'www.coinfacts.com' >>

gecko109

<< <i>

<< <i>Still waiting for the best definition. >>



Ok...I'll give this a shot:

1) Limited number exist in collectors' hands
2) Very difficult to find, denoting a high degree of scarcity, highly prized
3) Marked by an uncommon quality; especially superlative or extreme of its kind

>>




Although this isnt a poor definition, it lacks accuracy. "Limited number in collector's hands". are we talking 10 coins, or 10,000 coins? "Very difficult to find". In putting together my 7070 set, would you believe the single most difficult coin for me to aquire was an honestly graded Barber half in EF? Would those therefore be considered "rare"?

BigRed

A coin that you rarely can find, didn't say nothing about demand or price.

gecko109

<< <i>A coin that you rarely can find, didn't say nothing about demand or price. >>



So a state quarter in a PCGS slab in the grade of PO 01 would be a rare coin then?

rjsriv

Here is my 2 cents:

Mintage is a biggie-(ex 1894s dime- 24 mintage) surivial rate 1927D saint 10-15 known because of melting.
Grading census can be a good indicator but as we know from resubmissions that can be askewed. I currently have 2 coins with populations of 3 and 17 with original mintages under 10000 for each. To me these are rare coins.The modern crap of the first Hags and modern commens and state quarters while good for the hobby to introduce new collectors, gives most people the misconception of rarity for that stuff(crap). Give me a coin with minatege of under 10000 and low surivial rate and high grade--know that is what is rare..

doh

<< <i>A rare coin relatively speaking is one where supply exceeds demand. >>



Um....I think you have that backwards. Demand exceeds supply so the coin is "rare" or at least in demand hence valuable.

rec78

Hard to say where rare begins. It is one of the most overused words on ebay especially for coins. I would say that your 1895 quarter eagle qualifies as rare. But the demand is much less then a 1909-S vdb lincoln cent, for instance. There are very few people putting together quarter eagle sets-most settle for type. This does not make the 1895 quarter eagle any less desirable but you are playing to a smaller audience. I agree that a rare coin is one that is rarely seen for sale.Bob

Steve27

Read here LINK. Most items that people call "rare" aren't, such as 1916-D Mercs and 1909-S VDB Lincolns. They're key dates, they're in high demand, they're expensive, but they're not rare. According to the original So-Called Dollars text book only 5-20 of this medal are known; thus, it is truly rare, however it is not very valuable due to lack of demand.

tahoe98

the rare coin can suddenly become a common coin if all of a sudden millions surface. that's what would happen right after i purchased one.

firstmint

For most applications in the coin industry, the word scarce is better qualified for an accurate terminology. My dictionary relates the following:

Rare -Infrequently occuring, uncommon, unusual. Highly valued owing to uncommonness; special.

Scarce - Uncommonly or infrequently seen or found. Insufficient to meet a demand or requirement; not plentiful or abundant.

Either one would suffice, but the word "rare" is so overused in today's market, that it has little meaning regarding numismatics.

gecko109

So far there have been some decent descriptions of what a rare coin is, however, none so far have put a nail in the proverbial coffin. Maybe the actual word rare is a relative term. Is a 1909-s vdb cent rare? Sitting next to an Illinois quarter, you bet it is. Sitting next to an 1849 double eagle, the cent is COMMON. So that brings me back to my original question. What type of coins would I need in my inventory to correctly label myself a RARE COIN DEALER? I see "rare" coin dealer monikers all over the place. Just what types of coins are these guys selling that qualify as being rare?

RichieURich

To me, common is any coin that can be bought in a roll. Scarce is a coin that you can, with a little searching, build a roll of it. Rare is a coin that the entire quantity in the world of that coin will not make up one roll.

But the term "rare" is often used in context; i.e. the 1909-S VDB is a rare Lincoln cent, compared to most of the rest of the Lincoln cents, but with a little searching, and a full wallet, you could build a roll of that coin.

Russ

<< <i>I suppose I started this thread because it seems to me the term "rare" is used with extreme frequency when regarding coins. >>



Isn't that the truth. I really get a kick out of dealers with a company name like "Joe's Rare Coins" when 90% of them are selling common widgets and/or moderns.

Russ, NCNE

SeaEagleCoins

As some here have pointed out...rare can be a relative term...just because I've only seen one example of something doesn't mean it's rare...maybe I just need to get out more often...

In regards to say, the Buffalo Nickel... the 13-S TII is considered a key date... yet how rare is it? I bet you will have a harder time finding a nice problem free 15-S or 17-S in AU condition than the same grade in the 13-S.

...and take the 37-D 3 legger...at any major show you can almost trip over them...I once saw a heritage auction with around 20 differently graded examples available...so it may be popular...but rare?


Then there's the 38-D Walker... the most plentiful 'rare' coin I can think of...


Problem free, original unmessed-with Barber & Seated (especially pre 1850's) material... certainly hard to find, if not rare.

Same with Draped Bust material...most, including TPG graded are washed out over-dipped...yada yada


...one more example... I once sold a 96-S Barber Quarter in VG to someone at a show...he paid top $ and after he had it in hand...with a big smile on his face...he said "cool...now I only need one more to make a roll"
...I don't think he was kidding either...

...so what is rare?

...an honestly graded raw coin on ebay...now THAT'S RARE...

RichieURich

<< <i>

<< <i>I suppose I started this thread because it seems to me the term "rare" is used with extreme frequency when regarding coins. >>



Isn't that the truth. I really get a kick out of dealers with a company name like "Joe's Rare Coins" when 90% of them are selling common widgets and/or moderns.

Russ, NCNE >>



That's why I put "Rare" in my business name. I want people to know I'm not selling "widgets".

percyb

I think the 2005 Jefferson Nickel with the Buffalo reverse is rare. I have yet to find one in any rolls over the past several months. There were 900 million of them minted. Where the heck are they?

TwoSides2aCoin

<< <i>

<< <i>A coin that you rarely can find, didn't say nothing about demand or price. >>



So a state quarter in a PCGS slab in the grade of PO 01 would be a rare coin then? >>



I like your way of thinking and pondering. It's good for the coin forum . Thank you.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

ironhorse19

<< <i>I just want to know what your definition of a "rare coin' actually is: >>



There really is no right or wrong answer but...I am qualifying my previous post. Below is what I think the definition is:
1) Limited number exist in collectors' hands
The collectors would be those that "collect" the specific coin being discussed. If only one or two people want one coin that is 'unique' ((R-8 Unique or Nearly So (1, 2 or 3)) according to 19Lyds Ebay scale or URS-1 according to the Universal Rarity Scale, then while we may acknowledge the coins 'rarity' it remains unimportant(demand)to the rest of the collecting community. Those that don't collect at all will be unlikely to even acknowledge 'rarity' in this case because they could care less.

2) Very difficult to find, denoting a high degree of scarcity, highly prized.
If you want it(prized)and can't find it(difficult)then this subjective term "RARE" applies to the coin in question. Once again, while we may acknowledge the scarcity of a coin, if we aren't 'into' it, then we aren't likely to lose sleep over someone else having a difficult time finding it. I would be the first to call you gecko109, if I found a specific Barber half in EF, that would fill your needs. I don't collect them. I like varieties and errors. I look for anything that someone else has overlooked or didn't look for in the first place. The scarcity or rarity is important only when it comes time to set a price on it. The 1955 DDO Wheatie that I "found' in one of those "unsearched" bags had evidently NOT been searched. Rare(at this time, yes)and hard to come by(at this time, yes)but there could be a bucketfull of them out there somewhere, which would change the 'rarity' perspective ONLY until FUTURE demand exceeded supply.

3) Marked by an uncommon quality; especially superlative or extreme of its kind
We would all like to have beautiful, perfect coins...in OUR collection. Depending on your specific interest, the chances run from 0-100% so, once again, we acknowledge that coins are very seldom perfect(and in fact may be 'rare')but shrug and move on if it is unimportant to our needs. As a Jefferson collector, I would love to 'find' more of those early 1960's Full Steps. Knowing that it is highly unlikely, to me they are RARE. To someone who doesn't collect them, they will acknowlede their scarcity, but it will remain unimportant to them.

Someone's claim of 'rarity' is not important to me. As a collector, I am responsible for determing the 'rarity' of any given coin, the chances of finding an equal or better coin, and the price I am willing to pay. I once paid a kid a hundred bucks to mow my lawn. Took her half an hour. It was the best 100 bucks I ever spent. It wasn't what HER time was worth, it was What is it worth to me!

numisma

To me the word "rare" has nothing to do with money. It is about the number of a certain coin in existence, whether available for purchase or not. Here's the test: you are holding a coin or medal in your hand and you ask yourself, how many of these exist on the face of the earth? The 16-D dime, as steve27 pointed out, is NOT rare. Market value has nothing to do with rarity.

Cladiator

<< <i>To me the word "rare" has nothing to do with money. It is about the number of a certain coin in existence >>

Bingo!

numisma

Here's a perfect example or "rare" that just got posted

ironhorse19

<< <i>Market value has nothing to do with rarity. >>


Since gecko109 is looking for answers pertaining to inventory, thus market value what "rare coins" would you suggest? I'm hoping he'll stock a BUNCH of 1960's Jefferson Full Steps. PCGS graded MS70 and have them priced really, really cheap and save them ALL for me.

gecko109

<< <i>

<< <i>Market value has nothing to do with rarity. >>


Since gecko109 is looking for answers pertaining to inventory, thus market value what "rare coins" would you suggest? I'm hoping he'll stock a BUNCH of 1960's Jefferson Full Steps. PCGS graded MS70 and have them priced really, really cheap and save them ALL for me. >>




The reason I used the term inventory is because it seems like at least 7 out of every 10 coin dealers proclaim themselves as "RARE COIN DEALERS". I simply want to know what the term rare means in regards to coins. If most coin dealers deal in "rare coins", how rare can those coins really be?

Would early silver commems be considered rare coins? Most have mintages well below 100,000 even with all yrs/mm's taken into account. There are about 330 million Washington dollars that were minted. Lets call that a common coin. There were 25,000 Vermont halves minted. That means for every 1 Vermont half out there, there are a staggering 13,000 Washington dollars. So does that make a Vermont commem rare? Seems like quite a deal that you can get a nice MS64 Vermont for just 300 of those Washingtons, but I digress.

Nysoto

The Sheldon rarity scale was intended for varieties, and the descriptions work well for varieties - an R5 "rare" coin can be difficult to find. In series with less demand like draped bust halves, R5+ and R6 and up are what I would consider rare and really hard to locate.

For year dates, if someone says their 1794 dollar or 1797 half dollar is rare, even though both are outside the Sheldon "rare" designation, I won't argue with them! Many of the popular key dates, however, are not even worthy of a "scarce" designation.

ironhorse19

<< <i> I simply want to know what the term rare means in regards to coins. If most coin dealers deal in "rare coins", how rare can those coins really be? >>



Then it's what Numisma said and Cladiator bingo'd. Simple as that.

gecko109

Ok...I have a coin that is over 100 years old with original mintage of just 6,199. Survivor rate is just an educated guess, I'll guess on the high side at about 1,500 total specimens. Is that "rare"? Or does rare mean a 94-s dime, or even a pan pacific $20 round or octo?

Barndog

<< <i>Ok...I have a coin that is over 100 years old with original mintage of just 6,199. Survivor rate is just an educated guess, I'll guess on the high side at about 1,500 total specimens. Is that "rare"? Or does rare mean a 94-s dime, or even a pan pacific $20 round or octo? >>



sorry, your coin is not rare if 1,500 people can own one. If 12 or fewer can own one, then you are talking rare.

gecko109

So an 1894-s dime is NOT rare then correct?

gecko109

Neither is an 1804 dollar, with a whopping 15 known. I guess you would just call that coin scarce huh barndog?

Barndog

the 1804 dollar would not be truly rare with my definition. Plus, I don't like the idea of items minted under suspect circumstances to be called rare. Unless coins or medals were minted for "public consumption" they don't fit my personal definition.

gecko109

I will agree with you 100% on the "circumstantial nature" of the 1804 dollar. I dont like the idea of a coin to bear a date of 1804 when its known as a fact it was minted in the 1830's at the earliest, and even speculated to have been made as late as 1858. But for you not to acknowledge this piece as a true rarity seems absurd at best!

PerryHall

<< <i>the 1804 dollar would not be truly rare with my definition. Plus, I don't like the idea of items minted under suspect circumstances to be called rare. Unless coins or medals were minted for "public consumption" they don't fit my personal definition. >>



Source or circumstance of manufacture is not relevant when discussing rarity.

Barndog

<< <i>

<< <i>the 1804 dollar would not be truly rare with my definition. Plus, I don't like the idea of items minted under suspect circumstances to be called rare. Unless coins or medals were minted for "public consumption" they don't fit my personal definition. >>



Source or circumstance of manufacture is not relevant when discussing rarity. >>



for me it is.

SeaEagleCoins

OK ... say you have a coin and there are only 5 known ... but only 2 people collect them... is it still rare?


Then, say you have a coin and there are 10,000 known but more than 20,000 people collect them... is that rare?


Some people have never seen a Sac $... to them, if they do see one...it would be rare...



I don't know...I like my steak rare...my burgers rare...

...and being able to find an available, attractive woman with no agenda and no baggage... seems very rare indeed...


...as for my coins...I like them original and problem free...

gecko109

So rare cannot be quantified? Rare is actually a function of supply and demand? I could acclimate myself to agree with that. Let me mull that over for 5 minutes with a fresh cup of joe.

mozeppa

<< <i>I don't know...I like my steak rare...my burgers rare...

...and being able to find an available, attractive woman with no agenda and no baggage... seems very rare indeed...
...as for my coins...I like them original and problem free... >>



burgers and steak I like with just a little pink showing....women too.

gecko109

Ok...we are going in the wrong direction. This is a good wholesome family orientated forum, is it not? Burgers, steak, and women aside for just a moment, Im still flabergasted about barndog's response to the 1804 dollar. He might be the only coin person I will ever talk to who does not consider this issue to truly be rare.

Barbercoin

Hmmm?

Based on some of the Ebay ads I've seen (i.e. Rare: 1916-D XF Barber Quarter), I'd say it's any coin they want you to believe IS RARE.