Your thoughts on Rickey Henderson PART 2.

TheThrill

Thanks for all the feedback on my first post.

I learned 2 things about him.

1st. It appears many people saw him in the same light as I did. Showboat, Rockstar, and sometimes lazy. Alway's needing the attention on himself. That is only about his character though.

2nd. His numbers were REAL, REAL, damn impressive!! I had no idea about his O.B.P. Top 10 EVERY single year through his prime and then some. A whole lot more than stolen bases. Avg was a bit lower than I expected though. Thought it was around mid .290's. .279 lifetime surprised me. I had alomst forgot he had 3055 hits.

Anyway, from a team stand point. He would be a great choice for Any team. Any era. He most definatley set the table. And got into scoring position with a steal. Probably put the fear of GOD into the pitcher on a regular basis.

It's funny how fans look at this sport. Some choose players based on their overall " team play" ability. Some like myself look at greatness from the standpoint of how well a player " masters" the fundamentals. Such as hitting for Avg, Power, ect....

I guess it's just hard for me to measure a players greatness based soley or primarely on winning. Games, series ect...

I have found that many GREATS were screwed with bad teammates. They were the only birghtspot on that team. They had to do it wothout much help. To me thats very, very tough. Just like in pitching. If a guy goes 18-10 with a 2.00 E.R.A. and another goes 23-5 with a 3.50 E.R.A. I go with the 18-10. Tough to win games when you have no support.

I would still take Boggs on leadoff though. He was a true hitting machine. That skill means more to me. At least when I am watching as a fan.

perkdog

Henderson leading off and Boggsy batting second would be ideal IMO!

TomGshotput

<< <i>I guess it's just hard for me to measure a players greatness based soley or primarely on winning. Games, series ect... >>



Everyone is free to measure and judge another person with whatever criteria you see fit. But if it is not based on helping a baseball team win, it is not a measure of baseball talent or greatness

ArnyVee

<< <i>Henderson leading off and Boggsy batting second would be ideal IMO! >>



I would agree. Or, even Gwynn batting second.

TheThrill

As I have stated many times in the past. Im not much for trying to convince anyone to change their opinion. Or even beleive mine. But I will say to TomGshotput.

"But if it is not based on helping a baseball team win, it is not a measure of baseball talent or greatness"

Is BAR none, the single lamest thing I have ever heard.

EVERY single player play's to win. To help win. But not all succeed. Some not even close.

I just looked at Ted Williams numbers. He NEVER won a World series. He is widely accepted as one of, if not the greatest hitter of all time. He left more talent in the toilet every morning than You have ever dreamed of having. And anybody else for that matter.

I would love to see you in person! Standing next to Dan Marino. He would woop you even in retirment. He Never Won the Big One! I guess he's not great.

Ken Griffey Jr...... One of the GREATEST all around players to ever play. Speed, Power, Glove, ect..... Won 0 World Series so far. Easy first ballot Hall of Famer. Not GREAT.

Charles Barkley, Won Nothing. All Century TEAM. Hall of Famer. Not Great.

Gwynn Won 0 World series. Hall of Famer. Not Great. Ted Williams said he was the greatest hitter of this generation. I guess he wasn't GREAT either though. So who cares?

A-Rod? How many World Series trophies has he been part of winning? M.V.P. awards dont help a team win. Not great.

Ichiro, 7 straight 200+ hit seasons. Record for hits in a season. .333 lifetime. Which is #1 for current players still playing. 0 World series. He is the Boggs, Gwynn of the generation. A MASTER of hitting the ball safely. Doesn't sound GREAT to me.

Barry Bonds? Like him or not. Steriods or not. He's never going to win the big one. Unless it is in the next year or two if that. And even when he did all he could in the last N.L. Championship, and World series, they still lost. He laid down in traffic for those 2 series and came home with nothing. Just the knowledge he gave everything. That is all you can do. His numbers are STUPID. Not GREAT though. No GREATNESS there. Juiced or not.

Even Roger Clemens had to sign with the Yankees for his rings. They did not win on his arm only. Warren Moon, Jim Kelly, McCovey, Killabrew, and many more. Mays won 1 and lost 3. W.S totals are .239 avg, 0 homers, 6 R.B.I. SLG .282? That isn't to great. I guess everybody else MADE him look great. Stan Musial, one of the "GREATS" won 3 W.S. titles. Or did he? 86 at bats with a .256 avg, 1 homer? 8 R.B.I.? Reggie passed up Mays and Musial in 1 W.S. Game. Guess he's 5-6X GREATER?

The list goes on and on.

It's like saying that your a great, top teir employee at your job. Everybody likes you and all agree you are the best employee in the building. The Best worker, never late, alway's early. Top producer in All fields. A wealth of knowledge, and great teacher. Respected by All you work with. BUT..... your billion dollar company goes broke, out of business. After 15-20 years. In other words your TEAM failed. Went out of business. No awards, Not in the Fortune 500 anymore. Does that mean you werent great? Did you not acheive greatness? Since the whole failed, does that mean you failed?

Bottom line, Greatness is measured by what any given person does to the best of their ability. Then gets measured against all the rest. The cream rises to the top. Thats just the way it is. Not everyone has the distinction of being Michael Jordan. Being the best or one of the best and winning titles like their going out of style.

In other words, opinions are like @zzholes, everybody got one.

Statments are a different story. Jordan, Bird,Magic, Jeter, Mantle, Ruth, Berra, Ford, Montana, Rice, Brady get those. They earned it. You just compare their stats! Nothing more! Or did you lead a team to the World Series? Super Bowl, Stanley Cup? Win any of those? Maybe All of them?

stown

BIG-GI-O!

RipublicaninMass

I just looked at Ted Williams numbers. He NEVER won a World series. He is widely accepted as one of, if not the greatest hitter of all time. He left more talent in the toilet every morning than You have ever dreamed of having. And anybody else for that matter.

True, and Williams was almost as bad as Arod in the post season

BobaFett72

lol how many times did the sox make it to the post-season while Williams played for them?

jimq112

<< <i>But I will say to TomGshotput.

"But if it is not based on helping a baseball team win, it is not a measure of baseball talent or greatness"

Is BAR none, the single lamest thing I have ever heard.

EVERY single player play's to win. To help win. But not all succeed. Some not even close.
>>



I think you're wrong. I have seen players who were more concerned with their stats and how the game went for THEM than how the team did. I would give an example but I don't want to fire up any kobe fans.

I don't think Tom was necessarily saying that the player is no good if the team doesn't win, but I think that's how you read it. Maybe he meant that if the player was more interested in "getting his" than being a team player to help his team win, that he wasn't a great player.

Maybe the guy who takes a bad shot instead of passing to a teammate with a better shot.
Maybe the guy who swings away and misses the bunt sign.

Kind of like "leon" in the commercials a few years ago. Winning is important but not as important as how I did. The receiver who sulks when the other receiver catches the touchdown pass.

I think that's what Tom was saying. If I'm right you owe him an apology.

TomGshotput

Ted Williams did more to help his team win than all but two or three players in history. He never won a World Series because his teammates were limited in their abilities. As I already wrote, you can judge that view however you want, even as a lame one. To me, it is accurate

TomGshotput

Further, no matter how lame it is to say that Rickey Henderson helped his team win, it does not mean that Dan Marino failed to help his team win also