Is this the end of an era for the Yankees?
onlyanumber
Posts: 2,433
in Sports Talk
With the inevitable exit of Joe Torre, there are several other Yankees that may not be back. Mariano Rivera and Jorge Posada are both free agents, Andy Pettite has a player option, ARod can opt out and Clemens, who was somewhat of a nonfactor may not be back. Are Yankee fans about to see a repeat of the mid 80's to early 90's where team chemistry just wasn't there and playoffs were a pipe dream?
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
Next MONTH? So he's saying that if he wins, the best-case scenario is that he'll be paying for it two weeks after the auction ends?
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
0
Comments
What they really need are three studs anchoring the rotation and at least an average bullpen. That is what usually brings playoff success. Especially in October, good pitching tends to stop good hitting.
I believe the Boss has spent too much money on big boppers in the lineup and not enough on studly arms, preferably not in decline or close to it. And when they do spend on pitching, they give crackpot deals to guys like Carl Pavano.
<< <i>Are you talking about ending the era of not winning the World Series? My guess is it will continue for a few more years at least >>
I'm talking no playoffs.
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
I doubt Posada and Rivera go anywhere.
Starting pitching and middle relief need to be more solid. Starting pitching well on its way with Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy, Wang. They are awfully young so it will be interesting how they all pan out. Moose has another year on his contract and I think there is a good chance Petitte comes back. It's that middle relief that they are in of most need.
I hope they do something with Giambi...trade him for some young talent and eat most of that ungodly 2008 Salary. At least for 2009 they could just pay the 5 million opt out price. Doug Mankiewicz starting at 1B may not be a bad choice.
Jeter and Matsui are mainstays. Either Damon or Abreu will be traded. Though I would rather have Damon traded, I think it will be Abreu. No way Farnsworth sees another season in pinstripes.
Got to love having Melky and Cano there. I wonder if they make Shelly Duncan a DH.
Will also be interesting to see what happens in the ARod soap opera.
It's really going to depend on the moves the Yanks make in the offseason. If the Brewers can have such a young team and have that success then I think its very possible Yanks can have better success with the veteran starts they have. But they will be walking a fine line.
There will be at least one blockbuster player to be signed or traded for...especially in some sort of trade of Abreu or Damon.
My guess will be a 70% chance the Yanks make the playoffs in 2008 and 2009 that chance will increase dramatically.
<< <i>I'm talking no playoffs. >>
I think they'll keep making the playoffs. You see enough weak pitching over the course of 162 games that a team loaded with heavy hitters will win enough games to make the playoffs.
But in October, you see more good pitching capable of shutting down almost anyone, including potent lineups. And whichever team has the least amount of "shutdown" pitching is likely to exit early in the playoffs.
The Yankees are deficient in "shutdown" caliber dominant starting pitching -- for now. And that is the one thing that is most likely to keep them from sniffing championships in the years to come if they don't address it, either through their existing young staff breaking out or going out on the free agent market.
With the wild card now they will probably never miss the post season two years in a row. I could see them missing the post season at some point if A-Rod takes off this winter and the starters they sign don't work out.
<< <i>Nah I wouldn't worry if I were a Yankee fan. They pick up a couple of stud pitchers in free agency, resign Posada and they should be contenders again and again. >>
What pitchers are there? The number of high quality free agent pitchers just haven't been there the past couple years.
<< <i>Read what I typed, do you see 2008 anywhere in it? >>
I surely didn't say 2008 either....read what *I* typed.
Now if you want to talk about this fine, if you just want to start another fight go pick on someone else with your childlike rants.
You're the one who came at me with 'Read what I typed!' as if I couldn't possibly understand what you were talking about.
As far as the pitchers you named, honestly, you think any of them are going to become available? Peavy, Santana, Bonderman, Penny, Sheets and Prior...
Pretty arrogant to think that either (a) their teams won't re-sign them or (b) that they'd want to play in NY. The only one on that list who would likely be available is Santana, and there's no guarantee that he'd want to play in NY, especially with all the upheaval going on.
<< <i>Hey!, you girls stop pulling each others hair! >>
Only if you go take a cold shower scavenger
Axtell you dolt I've been here everyday, I just stay out of your posts. Now get your last word in as you always do, I'm done with ya.
<< <i>
Axtell you dolt I've been here everyday, >>
Sure ya have.
It's ok, you're a fair weathered fan like your boys the yankee fans.
<< <i>The Yankees will always have the resources to put a contender on the field, if not a champion. But I do think this team needs to get younger, and it definitely needs to retool. They seem to be built for regular season success but not playoff success.
What they really need are three studs anchoring the rotation and at least an average bullpen. That is what usually brings playoff success. Especially in October, good pitching tends to stop good hitting.
I believe the Boss has spent too much money on big boppers in the lineup and not enough on studly arms, preferably not in decline or close to it. And when they do spend on pitching, they give crackpot deals to guys like Carl Pavano. >>
Ziggy, that pretty much sums up my feelings as well.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Axtell you dolt I've been here everyday, >>
Sure ya have.
It's ok, you're a fair weathered fan like your boys the yankee fans. >>
Ax, like the Yankees you'll need some new material for next year. That is if you don't get banned again.
Their pitching staff has some holes, no doubt, but I don't think there is anyone on the free agent market that they can sign. It would not hurt them to sign a David Cone type player (you know, a tough durable staff ace), but I think they really have to work with what they have.
Wang is great and reliable during the season and a team needs that, but he has playoff jitters which must be addressed and corrected. He is too good to simply give up on.
Mussina had some trouble this year, but his last starts were solid and he pitched reliably in the post season. He might have extended the series to game 5 had he started in place of Wang. I know some say he is old and fading. Overall, this was not a bad season for him, it just was not particularly noteworthy. He has a great club house presence and you cannot just discount that. Its OK to have a veteran pitcher on the staff because Mussina has been quite consistent for he most part.
Phillip Hughs has taken the slack when the veterans fell. He happened to get more pitching time in because the Yankees needed to fill some holes. I am not saying he is a proven starter, but he sure shows some reasonable signs that he belongs on the Yankee staff.
Andy Pettite is a mainstay of the Yankee rotation. He should have never been allowed to leave and now they have to keep him. Good teammate and a pitcher that would grace any staff.
Clemens, Kennedy, Henn, etc. There must be one more legitimate pitcher in that pile and I am sure I am missing some rookie that had a couple of good outings for the Yanks this year.
Like I said, if they can get a staff like a David Cone type, then signing him will be worthwhile. If they have to resort to signing another Carl Pavano, then they are much better off justing sticking to their young talent. Perhaps they should hire an extra pitching coach that will give more personalized attention to the rookies and let Guidry deal with the staff veterans.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
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"There's no joy in the journey for Yankees fans anymore
Once, not all that long ago, Pete Ottone was a die-hard New York Yankees fan. He could tell you that Hensley Meulens' full name was Hensley Filemon Acasio Meulens; that Ken Griffey Sr. was traded for Claudell Washington and Paul Zuvella; that Ron Guidry struck out 248 batters in 1978; that Roy Smalley had an almond-shaped mole on his left calf.
Yankees fans are stunned, after another early playoff exit.
When the Yankees won their first World Series in 18 years in 1996, Ottone was euphoric. When they won the World Series again in '98, he was ecstatic. When they won it yet again in '99 and 2000, he was pretty happy.
Now he just doesn't give a damn.
"Winning at all costs," he says, "is boring."
Ottone -- a Brick, N.J.-based chiropractor -- and I go back 17 years, to when we were neighbors in a freshman residence hall at the University of Delaware. At the time, Ottone was Exhibit A of the Annoying Yankees Fan. He spoke giddily of this prospect and that prospect … wore Bronx Bomber T-shirts … raved excitedly about his Yankees allegiance for life.
"Back then, you never knew whether the Yanks would make the World Series or finish third," he says. "Sure, I wanted them to win every game. But the truth is, I love not knowing what's going to happen in baseball. There's something fun about entering a season and not being sure how your team will do."
The past few years, Ottone -- like many other reasonable, intelligent Yankees fans -- has had the fun smacked out of him. Such is the byproduct of watching your team purchase so many high-priced free agents, then watching them beat up on the Kansas City Royals and Tampa Bay Devil Rays en route to the inevitable -- and joyless -- postseason berth. Hence, when George Steinbrenner came out the other day with "[Joe Torre is] the highest-paid manager in baseball. So I don't think we'd bring him back if we don't win this series," Ottone neither laughed nor cried. He merely shrugged.
Quite frankly, Ottone no longer feels it.
Quite frankly, neither do I.
When did a baseball season in New York become solely about the finish line, and not about the journey? How can a team that clawed its way out of a 14½-game hole be deemed a failure for falling to a team -- the Cleveland Indians -- that features two of the league's top five starting pitchers? Do the memories of Alex Rodriguez's 54 home runs and Chien-Ming Wang's 19 wins and Derek Jeter's steely determination and Joba Chamberlain's meteoric rise fade to ashes without a diamond-studded ring?
Is this who we are?
Is this what we've become?
It had to have been cosmically designed that, shortly before Steinbrenner issued his decree, Marion Jones stood outside the United States District Courthouse in White Plains, N.Y., and admitted that her career as a legendary Olympian had been nothing but a big fat lie.
"You have a right to be angry with me," she told the assembled media. "I have let my country down and I have let myself down."
Like the Yankees, Jones had invested heavily in the modern American way of thinking -- that nothing but first place can be considered a success. That's why Barry Bonds allegedly broke the rules to snap the single-season and career home run records, why Floyd Landis and dozens of others apparently wouldn't mind winning the Tour de France with cheater's gold flowing through their veins, why Shawne Merriman can be suspended for using steroids and named a Pro Bowler in the same season and we're not shocked. It's why, whenever I pass a Little League ball field or a Pop Warner scrimmage or a gymnastics meet for 7-year-olds, there is inevitably a parent (or 10) chewing out his/her kid, not for a lack of effort, but for a lack of results.
From a journalistic/mediocre collegiate runner/father of two young children standpoint, it's hard for me to fully understand. If you're Jones or Bonds or Landis or Merriman, how can there be any satisfaction in knowing -- absolutely, positively knowing -- that you won via unfair advantage? And if you're a Yankees fan, how can there be any enjoyment in supporting a team that only celebrates if the season ends one specific, long-shot way?
"I hate it," Ottone says. "The first thing I ask my 6-year-old son after hockey games isn't about winning or losing -- it's whether he had fun. If you're a die-hard Yankee backer these days, fun means absolutely nothing. Fun is for failures."
But, beautifully, Joe Torre will be having fun again soon. Assuming Steinbrenner keeps his word, next year at this time the ex-Yankees manager will likely be sitting in a broadcast booth, snug and cozy and sipping a cup of green tea. And as his former team drops yet another playoff series, he will pick up a copy of a New York newspaper and read the inevitable "The New York Yankees apologize to the fans …" Big Stein-sponsored decree.
And, finally free of strife, Joe Torre will laugh his head off."