A question for the attorneys re: SGS, Fraud and the Ricco Statute

UtahCoin

As I understand it, fraud, in part, is defined as "The defendant intentionally misrepresented a fact (or pretended to know a fact which he did not know)". I think both parts here apply to SGS. They misrepresent the grade of a coin and they pretend to not know a fact (the proper grade). It would also seem to me that the "partnership" between parties in Ohio to sell SGS coins across state lines may fall under (loosely) the Ricco statute.

If one could prove a connection between SGS and the notable seller of SGS coins on eBay, would the possibility exist for a class action civil suit? Or if we stipulate the above, would any State Attorney be interested?

Just curious

dbldie55

Can you show me the law that defines what a grade should be?

FLBuffaloHunter

<< <i>Can you show me the law that defines what a grade should be? >>


That is the problem, there is no 'official' grading standard and each TPGS grades according to it's interpretation of market acceptable grading standards.

UtahCoin

What about misrepresenting the VALUE of a coin?

ricko

Value is a nebulous term.... it may be more valuable to me (for many reasons) than to a potential buyer. A seller can put any price they wish on an item. Cheers, RickO

razzle

Utah,

I think it's possible, though I'm not an attorney. The definition of grade would be decided on the basis of "within the bounds of reasonable professional judgement" ( or some such legalese) as indicated by impartial "experts."

Even though all grading is subjective, and graders within a particular TPG often vary in their opinions, they seem to be within a 1-1 1/2 grades of each other (just based on my very limited experience). SGS appears to make no attempt to even get close, and their "pattern of behavior" would indict them. Go for it, I think it would be a win-win for responsible TPG's and collectors alike.

seemyauction

I don't know if they do or not.....but if the company states their grading standards and the coin falls into their said standards then where is the fraud?

The fraud would be the seller trying to sell the coin graded by one company's standards as another companys product.

for instance a seller making you believe that this coins (not PCGS) is graded MS-65 so it should be worth PCGS MS-65 price.


Al

roadrunner

Fraud is when the actual value is nowhere near what you paid.
And 3rd tier holders fill the bill nicely. There are court cases from the 1980's on raw coins where the FTC found fraud on overpriced coins where companies were assigning their own grades. No difference today with raw coins or 3rd tier slabs.

Forget getting 2 or 3 experts from diff TPG's to agree on the grade.
Just ask them what the coin is worth and you'll find close agreement in 80-90% of the cases. They know what it's worth but call it something different in the holders. And when what they say the value is differs by multiples of what the coin was sold for, that's fraud.

Forget the plastic, grade the coin. The experts as a group will agree in most every case. Guess that's why they are experts. Do you figure an SGS has a top grader working for them who just adds "X" number of points to all MS/PF coins to achieve the slabbed grade?

roadrunner

walkerman

While the RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Orginizations) act would seem to be the right charge to make against these racketeers, convicting them would be something else altogether.
Even if the prosecution was lucky enough to have one coin savvy person in the jury pool, that prospective juror would be bounced by the defense as soon as he admitted any knowledge of numismatics.
To expect a jury of laymen to find these scammers guilty of fraud beyond any reasonable doubt is just not realistic.
There are hordes of satisfied customers who could be brought to testify as to their happiness with their prized acquisitions.
We have people right here on this forum who despite all the flack are still bidding on this crap.
To prove this just look at the attaboys given to Centsles and TNFC.
Maybe one of our own Numismatic lawyers would disagree and I would welcome a dissenting opinion because I would really like to be wrong on this one. Dave W



David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com

Zoins

<< <i>We have people right here on this forum who despite all the flack are still bidding on this crap.
To prove this just look at the attaboys given to Centsles and TNFC. >>

Wow. Didn't realize that.

BlindedByEgo

I think it is RICO. "Ricco" is one of Vito's enforcers