The 'choking' of the baseball superstar...
Hoopster
Posts: 1,169
in Sports Talk
Now that it is playoff time again we get to hear the impatience of the baseball fan blaming the loss on the choking of the superstar.
Someday fans and society will recognize that when two elite players/teams square off there is a very fine line between success and failure, and that a string of consecutive failures in a short series of games(or series) by big time players is not at all surprising...and is to be expected.
The big time players go through these bad stretches all the time in the regular season, but fortunately they have 162 games for their true ability to show through...and another 162 the following year and so forth. I have NEVER seen a baseball player who has had the ability to overcome these expected bad times and continue to thrive in the post season, never.
There have been great players with awesome post season stretches, equally great players with terrible stretches, and some with so-so performances...but what has always come true is that given enough at bats in these 'pressure' at bats, the players performances begin to reflect what their true ability is, much like it does over the grind of the 162 games they play already. Reggie has not been immune to this, Jeter has not, and nor has any other trumpeted post season hero of the past. They have all thrown up their share of clunkers, and in the end they played as their ability has suggested they would.
The unfortunate players are the ones who never got to play in 25 different post season series for their true ability to show up. Record books have these players batting .201 in the post season, and this is all fans need to put a label on them. They totally neglect the fact that it is over only 95 at bats, but to them it an easy target.
Would these same fans then conclude that Mariano Rivera is not a 'biggest' game pitcher being that his save percentage is only 50% in game sevens?
Many fans will insist that 100 at bats is plenty enough time to show their true ability. The problem is that most fans get their philosophy from their little league days. Sure, when you are a stud in little league, you will most likely never have a three game bad stretch, let alone a 30 game bad stretch. Why? Because the league isn't filled with guys who are within 1% of your ability. You are so much better than the average player, and light years better than the worst. It is easy to never fail in that environment. In MLB there are many of days where the worst hitter on the field outshines the best. There are many days where the king of all hitters is simply worthless at the plate. It happens to everybody!
Pro players need many games for their ability to truly show. Playoffs are fun and exciting because of this phenomenan...that the worst player on any given day can best the king....but remember, it isn't little league where Timmy Lupus would never strike out Kelly Leek.
-Skinpinch
Someday fans and society will recognize that when two elite players/teams square off there is a very fine line between success and failure, and that a string of consecutive failures in a short series of games(or series) by big time players is not at all surprising...and is to be expected.
The big time players go through these bad stretches all the time in the regular season, but fortunately they have 162 games for their true ability to show through...and another 162 the following year and so forth. I have NEVER seen a baseball player who has had the ability to overcome these expected bad times and continue to thrive in the post season, never.
There have been great players with awesome post season stretches, equally great players with terrible stretches, and some with so-so performances...but what has always come true is that given enough at bats in these 'pressure' at bats, the players performances begin to reflect what their true ability is, much like it does over the grind of the 162 games they play already. Reggie has not been immune to this, Jeter has not, and nor has any other trumpeted post season hero of the past. They have all thrown up their share of clunkers, and in the end they played as their ability has suggested they would.
The unfortunate players are the ones who never got to play in 25 different post season series for their true ability to show up. Record books have these players batting .201 in the post season, and this is all fans need to put a label on them. They totally neglect the fact that it is over only 95 at bats, but to them it an easy target.
Would these same fans then conclude that Mariano Rivera is not a 'biggest' game pitcher being that his save percentage is only 50% in game sevens?
Many fans will insist that 100 at bats is plenty enough time to show their true ability. The problem is that most fans get their philosophy from their little league days. Sure, when you are a stud in little league, you will most likely never have a three game bad stretch, let alone a 30 game bad stretch. Why? Because the league isn't filled with guys who are within 1% of your ability. You are so much better than the average player, and light years better than the worst. It is easy to never fail in that environment. In MLB there are many of days where the worst hitter on the field outshines the best. There are many days where the king of all hitters is simply worthless at the plate. It happens to everybody!
Pro players need many games for their ability to truly show. Playoffs are fun and exciting because of this phenomenan...that the worst player on any given day can best the king....but remember, it isn't little league where Timmy Lupus would never strike out Kelly Leek.
-Skinpinch
0
Comments
The guy has had two(now three) bad series in a row...a grand total of 11 games worth of playing, yippee. Previous to that he was a rock in the post season.
Anyhow, if the knee jerk reaction of a fan is to insist Arod sucks because he hasn't worn a world series, or he has had the gall to actually be an above average hitter in the post season, then at least the fan should be consistent and apply that brush to all players. That would mean the degrading of Ty Cobb, Ted Williams, Craig Biggio, Jeff Bagwell, Frank Thomas, DON MATTINGLY, Stan Musial, Willie Mays, Mike Schmidt, Honus Wagner etc...all of whom have been subpar in the post season, or have not won any world series. This isn't new stuff, and this stuff happens all the time. The other guy gets a paycheck too.
<< <i>
The guy has had two(now three) bad series in a row...a grand total of 11 games worth of playing, yippee. Previous to that he was a rock in the post season.
>>
Thank you.
Too many people think that 30 at bats is enough to justify their assessment and say 'Arod sucks!'....because it validates their puny little lives, making them feel better about themselves.
Others say he sucks because of his last 40 plate appearances in October
Even if they're wrong, they have the images that are burned into everyones memories on their side
<< <i>
Even if they're wrong, they have the images that are burned into everyones memories on their side >>
If they are wrong? No, they are wrong.
The numbers don't lie....look at his previous 85 at bats where he batted well over .300.
<< <i>Too many people think that 30 at bats is enough >>
It's 50 At Bats. Not 30. He is 4 for his last 50. We know how you like to screw around with the numbers.
You want to take part of 2004 (the end) but not the entire thing and you accuse ME of screwing with the numbers?
Grow up already!
<< <i>You can't just throw out the last four games of the '04 ALCS because it suits your ridiculous argument. Where was he during the collapse? Why didn't out savior come through for us? You know, since he has been carrying us all this time. >>
Who's throwing out games? I took the entire 2004 postseason into account, you want to take just a few games from that season to try to bolster your argument.
Clown.
<< <i>Anyone who knows anything about competitive sports >>
Well there is your answer right there.
You, sir, are the WORST type of fan. Actually, you are no fan at all.
Done debating this with you (and the others who want to paint Arod as a choke artist) - the numbers don't lie. Tell yourself he's a choker to make you feel better about your miserable lives, real fans, fans of the game know the truth.
<< <i>the numbers don't lie >>
No, but you do deducting 20 factual at bats to suit some idiotic notion
What is in question is the invalid assumption of labeling the elite player a choker because of a short set of failures in elite competition. If people want to continue to do that, and believe in that, then fine...but then I don't want to see those same people make themselves look like fools by eliminating Arod from all time team talk because of a string of failures with the Yanks, and then in the next breath put Ty Cobb on the all time team while ignoring his choke jobs in three World Series losses.
<< <i>2-4 tonight, guess he's still a choker. >>
0 RBI's in 54 post season at bats. The two hits were nice and hopefully he can build on it, but that's not the kind of production we want from him.
He gets 2 hits tonight, and now you're picking on his inability to get RBI?
Jesus f*****g christ you guys are unbelievable!
Only an absolute moron like Axtroll would try to defend ZERO RBI's in 54 at bats from the quarter billion dollar man
BTW Troll, I thought you were done talking about this with me
No wonder he wants out - he can never win with tools like YOU rooting for him to fail.
<< <i>So instead of congratulating Arod for breaking out of his slump, going 2-4 in a yankees win, all you clowns can do is whine about his not getting an RBI tonight? >>
I already said in two different posts that it was encouraging, and I hoped he could build on it. Do you ever actually read my posts or do you just plan out your next anger session after Yankee games.
Tonight?? I'm wondering about ZERO RBI's in his last 54 AB's since 2004.
Do you think he's doing his job in the post season? A yes or no will suffice.
I find it pretty ridicules that you actually call Arod a chocker. If you don’t want him, the SOX will take him. Pull your head out of your a#* and realize the Yanks aren’t what they used to be. Arod is the only reason the yanks are in the playoffs…period.
He may not be Reggie Jackson, but at least he produces throughout the year, unlike Derek Jeter (aka. your tube sock)
<< <i> find it pretty ridicules that you actually call Arod a chocker. >>
Point out where I said he's a choker. I never said it once. I'm pointing out facts about his post season perfomance since 2004. He's now 6 for 54 with 0 RBI's. More is expected from him being the highest paid player in the game.
So again, tell me where I called him a choker.
<< <i>Arod is the only reason the yanks are in the playoffs…period. >>
Stick to a subject you know.
Derek Jeter..... alomost enough World series rings to fill one hand. Captain of the Yanks, another 200 hit season, .320+ avg again, 3-4 more years and hes knockin on 3000 hit club. 20 million a year I think. Oh ya..... Mr. September isnt it?
A-Rod..... why bother with the numbers. Unreal skills. In a bad spot right now. Maybe on his way out after tonight.
I cant really bash any major league player, they get paid more in one season than I make in a lifetime.
These forums are more critical than the coaches on the team, and they have been there, and done that.
Anyone here been there, done that?
Didnt think so.... They walk the walk. We all just talk the talk.
I wasnt trying to be a smart***.
I just love the game. Im a Giants fan. I know suffering.
I would give anything to have anyone of those guys in pinstripes come over to the City by the Bay!!!!
First, those people are wrong, he can, and he has.
Second, Those failures are part of natural randomness of elite players and really have no valid place on the summation of a player, unless you are concerned with how he hits on July 4th weekend or the week of June 7th too(wild fanatics if you don't understand what I mean, please don't fly off the rocker and take that incorrectly.)
Third, If one insists on that line of "can't hit in the big game" thinking, then they need to be consistent and say the exact same things when the names of Cobb, Williams, and Mays are brought up. But they don't bring them up, and that really sheds light on the their ability to evaluate(or inability to).
If your responsie is, "It is because it is fresh in our minds,", then that again shows a shortsighted, incomplete, and ultimately worthless evaluation. It renders such evaluation completely inobjective, and puts the evaluation into the category of a fanatic: a guy letting bias, misinformatin, and strong emotions to make his judgements. Thoughts coming from those perspectives, or from guys who just want to "talk the talk" really have no merit then. So those guys either believe such thoughts(and show wild inconsistencies and inaccuracies with them), or they realize they are more or less taking pot shots, and in that case they should clearly state as such or we are forced to believe they really don't know what they are doing.
-Skinpinch
He is a fantastic talent. I root for this guy every night to break out of his post season slump. 16 games and 54 at bats with six hits and no homers and no RBI's, and I'm still rooting and waiting. You're trying to maneuver me into saying he's a choker, and you're trying to get me to root against him so I can argue with a moron like you. Your lame trick is not going to work. I don't keep a picture of Arod under my bed like you do. I don't care about his post season stats with Seattle or Texas. They're utterly meaningless right now. He is the highest paid player in the game, a superstar, and he needs to do his job and knock in runs for the Yankees during the playoffs.
Just because it is current news and is being published everywhere it does not mean one should succumb to knee jerk reaction and flush logic down the toilet. Those fans need to step back and realize that it is part of baseball, and THEY need to take Arod's failing in the playoffs ala Cobb, Williams, and Mays as part of pro baseball, and not personal.
Shortsightedness and shallow reasoning is not a good excuse.
<< <i> 16 games and 54 at bats with six hits and no homers and no RBI's, and I'm still rooting and waiting. You're trying to maneuver me into saying he's a choker, and you're trying to get me to root against him so I can argue with a moron like you. Your lame trick is not going to work. I don't keep a picture of Arod under my bed like you do. I don't care about his post season stats with Seattle or Texas. They're utterly meaningless right now. He is the highest paid player in the game, a superstar, and he needs to do his job and knock in runs for the Yankees during the playoffs. >>
Postseason stats with Seattle or Texas are meaningless? Uhm ok if you say so...you'd be wrong, but whatever, your entire 'NY is the only place that matters' routine is pathetic, and shows just how arrogant and self-centered Ny 'fans' are.
But if you want to play that game, why are you so eager to dismiss the 2004 playoffs (in which he was a YANKEE), in which he batted over .300? Why do you want to take 4 games in which he slumped, and assume it was because the red sox 'broke' him? If a guy goes through 4, hell 15 games during the regular season in which he struggles, that's not a big deal, but because it's 15 games, stretched out over 3 years in the playoffs, it somehow defines the guy?
The inconsistencies of those who bash Arod are unbelievable. First it was 'he's only batting .100 (or whatever it was) in his last 10 games!' to which he breaks out, goes 2-4. Now it's 'he has no RBI in his last 54 at bats!' God this is just like the bush administration in regards to Iraq! It's a moving and ultimately unachievable bar that yankee 'fans' have for Arod. Complain about his not getting hits, he goes 2-4, then complain about RBI. If he gets RBI, then it will be because he didn't hit a home run, and on and on and on.
What a miserable existence, that instead of cheering and being happy about Arod breaking out of his slump, you're complaining now about his lack of RBI (which is more a team effort than individual!).
Un-f*****g-believable.
Whether Cobb choked in the WS 100 years ago, or Arod choked in the playoffs last year, it is still the same thing...a choke job. In the scheme of evaluating a player, nothing can be more apples to apples.
I am sure that on those people's all time teams that they said nothing in regard to Cobb's, or Mays's poor post season performance, and if they(or yourself) truly believe that a choker exists in MLB(as with Arod), then it matters not when it was, but matters most that you apply that same tag to all the other players who did the same thing, regardless of WHEN they did it.
I really don't care about their reactions. It is their lack of understanding of the game, its history, and their conclusions that are drawn from impatience, bias, and just downright misinformation(I would use ignorance, but people seem to take that as a put down, so I will tread lightly with the emotional).
-skinpinch
-Skinpinch
Whoever said winning was not the goal?
Your notion that it is only being said because it is in the heat of the pennant race is wrong. It is said all the time, just read these boards. That is what my posts are directed to. Being that it is currently going on OBVIOUSLY it will be more , hence the opening of my first post.
It isn't surprising that it is beig talked about, it is the rationale people use that is surprising(actually it isn't surprising, I've come to expect it).
If you guys are alive 30 years from now, I have no doubt you will still be saying the same thing, while at the same time excusing the guys you 'like' or 'worship' from similar treament...no doubt.
1) Is the the ability to handle pressure the predominant reason why a MLB has success or failure in the post season?
2) Is the ability to handle pressure a big reason why a MLB has success or failure in the post season?
3) Is the ability to handle pressure a small reason why a MLB has success or failure in the post season?
4) Is the ability to handle pressure a mere byproduct that may have a small contribution, other than the predomiant reasons including true ability, and random outcomes of elite competition?
5) Is Alex Rodriguez an example of a player who cannot handle the pressure of a big game?
6) Is Mariano Rivera an example of a player who cannot handle the pressure of the BIGGST game (game sevens)?
7) Are Ty Cobb, Willie Mays, T. Williams, Rogers Hornsby, Joe Morgan, and Craig Biggio examples of players who cannot handle the pressure of a big game?
8) Is Derek Jeter a better player than Alex Rodriguez by virtue of having some big post season series?
9) Did Don Mattingly fail at his leadership role because he never led his team into a World Series, let alone a win?
10) Did Derek Jeter have a big fielding miscue in the 2001 WS, and is that an example of failing the clutch?
A-Rod likes putting things in other men's butts.
<< <i>Skin, I've got a job and have not the time to take the SATs at the moment. I could literally go on for pages answering your questions as there are no simple 'yes' or 'no' answers to be had to any of them. >>
but they are yes or no questions.
<< <i>
<< <i>Skin, I've got a job and have not the time to take the SATs at the moment. I could literally go on for pages answering your questions as there are no simple 'yes' or 'no' answers to be had to any of them. >>
but they are yes or no questions. >>
loaded opinionated yes or no questions, yes. Framed to receive a certain answer in order to elicit a certain response, yes. Completely bias free? No.
and are you talking about an MLB player or just an MLB?
Pretty simple.
And Jeter miscue should be the 2003 series vs. FLA.
These are very straighforward questions. The only way they are loaded is if somebody has biased answers. They are given so I can see exactly where the people I am debating stand. They don't require anything more than a Yes or No. If you want to say Most Likely Yes, or Most Likely No, then that would suffice as well.
Is Arod the guy who can't handle the pressure of big games, I hear people say it all the time on the board...THEN JUST ANSWER YES! It isn't hard. It isn't loaded. You either feel he exemplifies this notion, or he doesn't.
Question 1 thru 4 is basically multiple choice. If you belive in one of those to be yes, then the other three are no. It isn't hard guys.
Question 7. All I hear is "he isn't a big game player!" Then are those guys listed one of them? I will let you deviate on that and then give me a name of a player who isn't a big game player! I am trying to make it easy here.
Question 8, did Mattingly fail in his leadership because he didn't win? Well if you believe other reasons are the cause of not winning, then your answer is no...or the 'most likely no' you can answer. This isn't hard, and certainly not SAT's
Question 9, is Jeter's miscue an example of failing in the clutch? If you feel it is something other than that, than your answer is NO.
What about Rivera, does his 50% save rate mean he can't handle the biggest of the big games(game sevens)?
-skinpinch
Baseball I will address a couple of things you said..."most of those players are not as good as Arod??" Are you kidding me!! Willie Mays, Ty Cobb, Rogers Hornsby, Ted Williams, Jackie Robinson? Weren't a number of them on YOUR all time team?
How about possibly the top four second baseman of all time...Hornsby, Morgan, Jackie Robinson, and Biggio? All terrible in the post season, well below their regular season performance, and hardly any good moments. Robinson's teams went 1 and 5 in WS, and in the one they won he hit .182.
"Others have shown enough positives to outweigh the negatives?" What? Arod has shown more positives in big games than most those guys.
Mays has one HR in over 80 at bats...that isn't a drought?
You really need to answer those questions to get some direction in your thoughts...and possibly study the history a bit more.
And for the umpteenth time myself, a faulty evaluation on player who is playing now, 100 years ago, or 100 years from now is faulty, no matter which way you slice it. If your reasoning is that it is ok to use faulty analysis on a player simply because he is still playing...then you really need to answer those questions.
Yes, "choke" probably should be eliminated from all intelligent talk, from Arod to Joe Blow. It makes for good ESPN storylines, or Joe Buck fodder, but that is about it.
The only thing that is causing a leap is your refusal to answer simple questions.
You seem like a pretty knowledgeable guy, and you probably should study more the history of the post season and the past, and you may enrich your understanding even more.
<< <i>Don't worry, I plan on addressing your "questions" in due time. I'm busy at work and am following the Yankees game but I'll get to it. >>
hahah
I didn't realize yes or no questions took so much time.
<< <i>Hoopster, they are yes or no questions because you really haven't said anything other than it is because he is still active. They are asked so that I have a strong clue on what you really feel. Once yes or no's are given, then rationale can be addressed as to why. >>
Huh?!?
You and your ilk will never be happy and think Arod has done well in the postseason, and it's moronic and pathetic.
Arod has done better in the post season compared to all of those greats listed.
You also gave wrong information regarding Cobb. They didnt' win any of the WS, not one like you said! So you can't use that "they play to win comment." Of course they do, and that isn't the point. You say Cobb was only 20 as if that doesn't count? Well he hit .350 that year and led the league in SLG%, so I would say he was pretty good, and that he did far less than expected in the post season.
Ted Williams played in one post season and you seem to recognize the importance of a small sample size in this regard. Four series is also an extremely small sample size and doesn't tell you much either, yet it is the basis for your Arod argument.
Hornsby not considered an all time great? What? He was terrible in the WS, and he was fortunate his teammates got him a win...it wasn't because of his play.
Jeter won four...again thank you teammates. He has had the same teammates as Arod these last few years and he has won just as many as Arod. A WS win is a testament to a team, not an individual.
Craig Biggio was not counted on? Again, what?? While he may not be exactly as good as Arod, he is in the team photo and was the catalyst of that team. Darn tooten he was counted on, and he did nothing.
Again, every one of those greats exhibited the randomness that Arod has experienced. To say a natural randomness is a choke is wrong.
Fans need to understand what is at work, plain and simple. Especially Yankee fans.