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Do you think that NGC is shooting themselves in the foot

BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,284 ✭✭✭✭✭
with their current grading of moderns like the presidential proofs and SAEs?

Reason I ask is that I followed a link to a fellow member's coins that he sold on TT then decided to keep looking. Saw a group of 5 PF70UCAM Madisons closed for $200. Saw PF70UCAM Jefferson's closed for $27.
The MS70 2007-W SAEs go direct cheap as well, particularly in NGC plastic.

If I were a seller, I wouldn't pay to send these types of things to NGC because even in MS/PF 70 holders, they aren't worth much more than raw image
Really need to be a volume submitter and willing to take a few bucks per item, or nothing, if you are selling them.

I am all for calling a "perfect" coin "perfect" and a 70, but I really doubt that they are.....it almost appears they are heading to replace ICG and *gasp* SGS imageimageimage
Maybe all they want is the fees from people that will send in just for a 70 grade no matter of the value of said coin (and, given these types of moderns, it isn't like there are very few of these coins)

I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

Comments

  • I think the 70 grade is slippery slope, and I don't see how it helps ngc that they see perfect coins so often. If I owned a grading company, there would be no 70- just more 69's! image
    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
  • From a dealers standpoint, a less than 20% 70 percentage makes it hard to turn a profit dealing in Ulra Moderns when you consider the next best grade a 69, is almost always a losing proposition. The NGC 70 standard is more relaxed than PCGS for ultra moderns, closer to a 50% or better ratio and is why I feel they receive many more submitions from dealrs in said coins and that is why NGC grades many more modern coins than PCGS
    Never teach a pig to sing. You'll waste your time and annoy the pig image

    image


  • << <i> Do you think that NGC is shooting themselves in the foot >>


    They are not the only ones giving out 70's..At the current rate of grading mint products the TPG will downgrade their 70's to 69's and fault the mint blaming their quality.??
    Surely sometimes their quality is a factor...but I feel that in future grading the TPG will have no choice but to Degrade the mint because of all the 70's that they are putting out now.More and more the collector WILL expect a 70 grade.It stands to reason ..really ..that quality will improve over time...even at the Mint..!!
    ......Larry........image
  • I wonder how they feel being "the official grading company of the shopathome network" ?
  • Watching the coin segments on HSN, it looks like ICG turns out a lot of 70s also.


    image
  • 57loaded57loaded Posts: 4,967 ✭✭✭
    and all they think they are doing now is shooting rubber bands, too.

    image
  • TexastTexast Posts: 1,899 ✭✭✭✭
    They all have, not just NGC, I don't believe that the quality from the mint has gotten any better, I believe the all the competition for grading dollars has increased the pressure for “Top Grades” I have been reluctant to even use my coupon with NGC, I don’t want to downgrade the value of a raw coin, and I don’t want to pay the high fees to PCGS for many of the coins I would like to have graded.
    On BS&T Now: Nothing.
    Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
    Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
  • notwilightnotwilight Posts: 12,864 ✭✭✭
    Yes.
  • KentuckyJKentuckyJ Posts: 1,871 ✭✭✭

    I have almost no respect for the NGC 70 slab. You would have to pay me to put one of them in the collection. I'm sure some of them are nice coins but the overall NGC 70 reputation is zilch. I've bought a few PCGS 70's but I'm extremely careful about accepting anything less than 100% naked eye perfection. My biggest complaint with a PCGS 70 is the occasional dandruff like fleck that gets slabbed on the surface of a coin. Don't they have quality control checking these things? A 70 coin should be slabbed perfectly.

    KJ

  • BearBear Posts: 18,954 ✭✭
    Be it ever so humble, there is

    no place like.................PCGS!image
    There once was a place called
    Camelotimage
  • GATGAT Posts: 3,146
    Yes, they are shooting the NGC family jewels. image
    USAF vet 1951-59
  • FrankcoinsFrankcoins Posts: 4,569 ✭✭✭
    70 used to mean "exactly as it was struck." Supposedly now it means flawless under 5 power magnification. But there no such thing as flawless. Look at a PCGS 70 under a 50 power stereo scope and you will find many flaws.

    The few moderns I buy stay in the government holders.
    Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Then again, it stands to reason that with a little care and modern manufacturing methods that the mint should be able to produce ms 70 quality coins quite easily and for some issues anything less should go back to the smelter.
  • ebaytraderebaytrader Posts: 3,312 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Do you think that NGC is shooting themselves in the foot >>





    No.
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Do you think that NGC is shooting themselves in the foot >>





    No. >>



    No. Its more likely that the people using NGC are the ones doing the shooting. Then again NGC will have to keep the flood of 70's going to keep the suckers coming back.
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,297 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think the 70 grade is slippery slope

    It wouldn't be a slippery slope if the grading company had real standards and stuck to them.

    a less than 20% 70 percentage makes it hard to turn a profit dealing in Ulra Moderns when you consider the next best grade a 69, is almost always a losing proposition

    That shouldn't be a concern for the grading company. If they didn't "relax" their standards for a 70, the 69s wouldn't be worthless. It's a "chicken & egg" relationship.

    They all have, not just NGC, I don't believe that the quality from the mint has gotten any better, I believe the all the competition for grading dollars has increased the pressure for “Top Grades” I have been reluctant to even use my coupon with NGC, I don’t want to downgrade the value of a raw coin, and I don’t want to pay the high fees to PCGS for many of the coins I would like to have graded.

    image

    As I compare pricing on the Modern coins that I track, a PCGS-69 roughly equates to an NGC-70, and a proof or mintstate coin in the original government packaging equates roughly to an NGC-69. A raw coin sits at the bottom of the heap, and a PCGS-70 is decidedly way on top of the heap. This is just based on the pricing comparisons that I do for American Gold Eagles and Plats. It might be different for other series.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • 7over87over8 Posts: 4,733 ✭✭✭
    The perfect "70" is just a numbers game. Once you realize that, you will be better off.

    I've had coins that graded "69" thier first time, were cracked and went "70" thier second time. Smaller submissions (non bulk) seem to have a better success rate.



  • ttownttown Posts: 4,472 ✭✭✭
    MS70/69 are about the same quality as far as the eye can see. The only loser on a 69 is the seller NOT the collector IMO. Now the problem with ALL the grading companies are there constant grade fluctuation as coin prices go up and down. That's the real problem IMO they should stick to strict ANA standards and let the market determine price. Is PCGS really a bargain because they bring a little more than NGC or ANACS? I say no if they are grading your coins a point or two less than the ANA standard that's been around since I've collected. Grading companies need to grade and quit trying to set their own independent standards as far as I'm concerned and don't even get me started on the so called "Market Acceptable" standards especially those that put rare problem coins in holders without notation and are many times net graded because of it.
  • notwilightnotwilight Posts: 12,864 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>Do you think that NGC is shooting themselves in the foot >>

    No. >>

    No. Its more likely that the people using NGC are the ones doing the shooting. Then again NGC will have to keep the flood of 70's going to keep the suckers coming back. >>



    You see NGC 70s selling for just above melt. In buffalos, there are more 70s than 69s. Which is the rare coin? I have a lot of customers buying PCGS coins who eventually admit that they bought an NGC 70 before they were enlightened and wonder what to do with it. --jerry
  • pitbosspitboss Posts: 8,643 ✭✭✭
    I have been complaining about NGC grading for a long time especially in regards to all the MS67's they graded on the Wisconsin extra leafs compared to ANACS and PCGS which only show a handful of true 67'.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,145 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think it's great! No unwarranted plastic premium for a supposedly perfect coin that 9 times out of 10 wouldn't grade the same on resubmission elsewhere. image


  • << <i>Then again, it stands to reason that with a little care and modern manufacturing methods that the mint should be able to produce ms 70 quality coins quite easily and for some issues anything less should go back to the smelter. >>


    I disagree...!!As a collector ..sure we want Quality coins.That's the number 1 priority.But let's face reality and have a comparison.We are not talkin' about electronic components here.We're talkin' about a a metal disc between two dies.The environments are quite different.
    You can scrutinize a coin with a 5 or 10x magnifying lens and find something wrong ..no doubt.These are shall I just say it......Just Coins.....!!!!!......image
    ......Larry........image
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Given the fact that the alloy used for Sackie and presidential dollars is unstable, I won’t pay much for a PR-70 regardless of whose holder it’s in. We all have to accept market risks, but when you add environmental risks, which are hard to avoid even with proper storage, I don’t much money in this stuff.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • notwilightnotwilight Posts: 12,864 ✭✭✭
    What to you mean by unstable? Generally that applies to radioactive isotopes.
  • partagaspartagas Posts: 2,056 ✭✭✭
    think it's great! No unwarranted plastic premium for a supposedly perfect coin that 9 times out of 10 wouldn't grade the same on resubmission elsewhere.

    I couldn't agree with you anymore! 69 VS 70 is nothing but bs perception. And only a fool would pay huge premiums for it.
    If I say something in the woods, and my wife isn't around. Am I still wrong?
  • fcfc Posts: 12,788 ✭✭✭
    fools seem to like first strike stuff. why not 70s?

    it seems there are plenty of fools to go around for all
    the tpgs.


  • << <i>Then again, it stands to reason that with a little care and modern manufacturing methods that the mint should be able to produce ms 70 quality coins quite easily and for some issues anything less should go back to the smelter. >>



    I totally agree- and the fact that the mint slamms out 100's of thousands of coins daily- is in my opinion the perfect example - that there is no such thing as a 70- they all have one flaw


    It was made by man and machine- not God.

    69 should be the highest grade possible on anything produced in todays market- unless you take it one coin at a time and hand deliver it to the plastic coffin it should sit in- instead of the spewing machine- they coins definitely get banged around.

    MS coins- no such animal as a 70
    PR- maybe if handled right.
  • pf70collectorpf70collector Posts: 6,503 ✭✭✭
    I agree that NGC is handing out way to many 70 grades, but just for the ultra moderns. They are still tough on certain coins like the Jefferson PF 70 Silver Commemorative, The Delaware Silver State Quarter, any of the pre 1990 silver eagle proofs, including the 1993 and 1994 in 70 grades. They destroyed the market for the gold spouses in 70 grades in my opinion also. Has the mint improved the mint process recently as compared to say 10 years ago. I believe so but not to the extent that it warrants opening a flood gate of 70's on the market. Eventually, they are shooting themselves in the foot because dealers won't submit for 70's anymore.
  • mrmommrmom Posts: 348


    << <i>What to you mean by unstable? Generally that applies to radioactive isotopes. >>



    thanks for a little humour.




    from another ex NE image
  • CocoinutCocoinut Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭✭✭
    For moderns, NGC70 = PCGS69 = 90 % of raw coins. Why waste your money having them slabbed?

    Jim
    Countdown to completion of my Mercury Set: 2 coins. My growing Lincoln Set: Finally completed!
  • DoogyDoogy Posts: 4,508


    << <i>I think it's great! No unwarranted plastic premium for a supposedly perfect coin that 9 times out of 10 wouldn't grade the same on resubmission elsewhere. image >>



    BINGO!


    I think the marketing coversations at BOTH PCGS and NGC went something like this, a few years ago.

    "hey, all those coins we graded a few years back; let's loosen our grading and get all of the collectors to re-submit so we can start the gradeflation and market grading segment. our stockholders will love us for it!"

    after that rush subsided.....

    "hey, now let's start loosely grading all of the Saints and $20 Libs loosely; that oughta bring in the investors and others that have held off submitting anything to us. A win-win for everyone!"

    and then came the........

    "let's put it in people's minds that there are truly perfect ultra-modern coins, and charge 'em to see which new Mint product we think deserves it. Man, that ought to have 'em lining up for sure!"

    and lastly.........

    " okay folks, let's call the first batch of Mint produced coins with a certain monniker....anyone have any ideas? Maybe "First *something*". That should really be our cash cow!"



  • I have absolutely no desire to own anything graded a 70. First off, they shouldn't even exist, and secondly, those that do are really 69's that went before a grader who was feeling generous that day. I once owned a PCGS 70 coin that I cracked and resubmitted. It came back a 69, and I'm quite happy with that, and feel better about the coin and it's slab.


    Bob
  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,284 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, I started the thread then took off on a business trip to Asia.....
    Finally catching up on things (still over here though).....

    Anyway, my further thoughts.....if no flaws with 5x loupe, I (personally) am ok with a 70 grade. I am not a perfectionist who believes nothing is perfect. It is all a definition that is generally accepted by the majority of the hobby. I am ok with that.

    I also think that, for ultra moderns, I don't want NGC as they are only worth protection for the coin and there are cheaper ways (even ICG/ANACS would be cheaper and still saleable on ebay if I needed). I believe they have, and still are, damaging their reputation and if they are not careful, it will be comparable to PCI ("oh yeah, that era of PCI is ok, but the current ones aren't") type of thing.

    I've also noticed that people who don't believe in the 70 grade are usually not collectors of moderns.....

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • Snowman24Snowman24 Posts: 466 ✭✭✭
    I would have to stand behind the quote of FLBuffalohunter on dealers submitting

    with 69's NGC's and PCGS are about the same ballpark price on ebay - your probably losing money if your hoping for a 70 with the odds of getting one
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,793 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Cripes almighty sakes alive !

    HSN/NGC/US MINT
    I can't figure out why, with the resources we have in numismatics, we can't get a real COIN SHOW on television. NGC isn't the problem anymore than a 69 or 70. Marketing what the mint makes is.
    I don't think it's the grading that sucks, I think it's what is marketed to the masses.
    We used to collect by a coin's rarity/type/date/variety/mint mark/ then condition.

    What happened ?
  • GemineyeGemineye Posts: 5,374


    << <i>Cripes almighty sakes alive !
    I don't think it's the grading that sucks, I think it's what is marketed to the masses.
    We used to collect by a coin's rarity/type/date/variety/mint mark/ then condition.

    What happened ? >>


    WOW...image....I think you caught that Home Run Ball...!!!....Holey Cow.....!!!....I think we forgot all about that...
    Isn't that one of the reasons we collect coins.?? Their Rarity...!!!..I have something that you don't have..!! It' that simple...
    I guess we lose to the higher grades and forget about mintage figures...which are equally important.
    ......Larry........image
  • DoogyDoogy Posts: 4,508


    << <i>Cripes almighty sakes alive !


    I don't think it's the grading that sucks, I think it's what is marketed to the masses.
    We used to collect by a coin's rarity/type/date/variety/mint mark/ then condition.

    What happened ? >>



    i'll tell you what happened............the big TPGs can only make so much money on classic coins (the true rarities). after that, they have to help the Mint promote ultra-moderns as being "rare" and desirable to pad their own wallets (and their stockholders). the only people left holding the bag in the long run will be the ultra-modern collectors that thought their 70 coins were "rare".

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