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One of the greatest circulation strike rarities...

tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
... and very underrated as such! 1870-S dollar in Stacks

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1870-S Very Fine-20.

The 1870-S Seated dollar is one of the greatest American coin rarities. According to Mint records, none were produced—matching the same report for the 1870-S half dime (unique) and 1870-S three-dollar gold piece (also unique). J. B. Harmstead, the San Francisco coiner was apparently striking a few examples that year of these denominations. For the Seated dollar, there were obviously a few more produced, but to date just nine have been auctioned, and two more are rumored to exist. The present coin has lovely steel gray color throughout, with natural surfaces that lack any distracting marks. The "S" mintmark is clear but softly impressed in the die, as seen on all original examples. Weak on BE of LIBERTY from wear, but these letters can be made out. Were this a common date Seated dollar it would be desirable based on the surface quality alone, as there are no problematic rim marks or scratches, both features commonly encountered on circulated Seated dollars. Without question one of the rarest United States coins struck for circulation, and a coin that is only obtainable when great collections cross the auction block. While not the finest known, this pleasing Very Fine example is wholly presentable and worthy of considerable attention.

The following is a Condition Census of this classic rarity as presented and updated in our Eliasberg Sale, April 1997:

1). MS-62, Prooflike. The James A Stack coin. Probably Col. E.H.R. Green; Stack's; James A. Stack in 1944; Stack's auction of the James A. Stack Collection, March 15-16, 1995, Lot 212 at $462,000; Stack's auction of the L.K. Rudolph Collection, May 14, 2003, Lot 2136 at $1,092,500.

2). MS-62 (called AU-50 in the Norweb Auction). Tiny scratch through to O in ONE. Originally noted in the H. O. Granberg Collection and exhibited at the ANS in 1914; Waldo C. Newcomer by 1916 when it was again exhibited at the ANS that year; William H. Woodin; Col. E.H.R. Green; Burdette G. Johnson; our Anderson-Dupont Collection, November 11-13, 1954, Lot 2551; Ambassador and Mrs. R. Henry Norweb; Bowers and Merena's auction of the Norweb Collection, November 14-15, 1988, Lot 3825; Jim Jessen Collection.

3). Eliasberg specimen, AU-50 or finer, tiny nick below E of AMERICA. Our auction of the George H. Hall Collection, May 15-19, 1945, lot 1576 at $1,750; B. Max Mehl's sale of the Will W. Neil Collection, 1947, Lot 202; Stack's to Louis E. Eliasberg privately; Stack's and Bowers and Merena's sale of the Louis E. Eliasberg Collection, April 6-8, 1997, Lot 2243.

4). Ostheimer specimen EF-40 (PCGS), test mark near seventh star. M.H. Bolender's sale of the Compton Collection, Alfred J. III and Jacque Ostheimer; Merkin's Auction of the Ostheimer Collection, September 18, 1968, Lot 372; Superior's auction of the Gilhousen Collection (Ostheimer dollars), October 4, 1973, Lot 1339; Superior's ANA Auction, August 1975, Lot 1125; Julian Leidman; Gary Sturtridge; Bowers and Ruddy's ANA Auction, 1978, Lot 1160; James E. Pohrer; Kagin's ANA Auction, 1983, Lot 2707; Leon Hendrickson and Sal Fusco; private collection; offered privately by Phoenix Rare Coin Galleries in 1992; David Lawrence's auction of the Richmond Collection, November 2004, Lot 1497 at $414,000; Heritage's Auction, part of Jack Lee III Collection, November 2, 2005, Lot 2226 not sold.

5). Wolfson-Miles-Queller specimen, VF. Reportedly from the Matthew Adams Stickney Collection but sold privately; Col. E.H.R. Green (likely); James Kelly; Jack V. Roe; James Kelly; Charles M. Williams; Numismatic Galleries Sale of the "Menjou Collection", 1950, Lot 2181; Abe Kosoff FPL 1955; our sale of the "Fairbanks Collection" (Ben Koenig), December 10, 1960, Lot 617 at $9,000; our sale of the Samuel Wolfson Collection, May 2-3, 1963, Lot 1431 at $12,000; R. L. Miles; our sale of the R. L. Miles Collection, April 10-12, 1969, Lot 1612, at $19,000; our Autumn Sale, September 8-9, 1978, Lot 345, at $39,000 to David Queller.

6). The Carter specimen, VF or so with light pitting on the lower quarter of the obverse. Waldo C. Newcomer; B. Max Mehl; Col. E.H.R. Green; Burdette G. Johnson; B. Max Mehl's sale of the Jerome Kern Collection, 1950, Lot 941; Amon G. Carter; our sale of the Amon G. Carter, Jr., Collection, January 18-21, 1984, Lot 285 at $46,750; our sale of the L. R. French Collection, January 18, 1989, Lot 56 at $66,000; our auction of November 1989, Lot 546 at $77,000.

7). The present Coin. The Farouk-Schultz specimen, VF. Minor diagonal tick down to right near point of eagle's beak, minute edge chip below final star. Norman Schultz Auction, December 4, 1935, Lot 1302; B. Max Mehl; King Farouk; Sotheby's The Palace Collection Auction, 1954, Lot 1676; Arthur Conn and Harold Whiteneck's ANA Auction, 1960, Lot 1168; Kreisburg-Schulman sale, April 6-8, 1967, Lot 1253; our auction of March 16-17, 1987, Lot 1203 to the present consignor.

8). The Eureka specimen, F-VF but scratched. Found in circulation in Eureka, California in 1922, Steve Ivy's Donovan Sale, Part II, July 1978, Lot 1128; Manfra, Tordella and Brooks; Auction '85, Lot 1270.

9). Boyd specimen, VF but tooled in the right obverse field and on LIBERTY; William Hesslein Sale, December 2, 1926, Lot 900 where noted to have the initials F.H.I. engraved in the field; repaired and smoothed; F.C.C. Boyd; Numismatic Gallery's World's Greatest Collection Sale, May 1945, Lot 271; Hollinbeck Coin Company's Southern Sale, February 28, 1951, Lot 1248; New Netherland's 39th Sale of the Earl M. Skinner Collection, November, 1952, Lot 162; our "Empire Sale" of the Charles A. Cass Collection, 1957, Lot 1759; Hollinbeck's Quarter Millennium Sale, Part III, June 29, 1963, Lot 519; Hollinbeck's 274th Auction, November 27, 1967, Lot 1162; our auction of June, 1996, Lot 1940.

10). Not verified. Mint State. San Francisco Mint employee, 1870; Family of the preceding and owned by a San Francisco area military officer who showed the coin to local dealer Sam E. Frudakis, reported to the cataloguer of the Eliasberg Collection.

11). Possible specimen in the cornerstone of the San Francisco Mint, with the ongoing earthquake retrofit of the "Granite Lady" and the fact that this Mint survived the massive April 1906 earthquake with little damage, means that it may be generations before this rumor can be confirmed or denied as the cornerstone still sits proudly where it was placed in 1870.

Comments

  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A worthy coin indeed. What do you figure $300-400K? I'd say mid
    $300's but that's only a swag based on the below information.

    I'm still partial to the 1853-0 NA half with only 3 specimens traced.
    When sold at Queller in 2002 for around $150K it was a raving bargain. But more than likely Gray was willing to go considerably higher as he was after one for his set. And how often do these come up. I believe it then went into the Richmond collection and later resold for mid-$300's.

    roadrunner
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold


  • << <i>A worthy coin indeed. What do you figure $300-400K? I'd say mid
    $300's but that's only a swag based on the below information. >>



    Roadrunner, I asked TDN the exact same question and offered the exact same guess lmao.

    This upcoming stacks auction looks like it has some purty coins in it

    Mark
    Want to buy an auction catalog for the William Hesslein Sale (December 2, 1926). Thanks to all those who have helped us obtain the others!!!

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Interesting that they call the Norweb coin MS62. So far as I know, it's still in a PCGS AU58 holder.
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There's a nice run of raw run of better date circ seated in this sale.
    The quarters being particularly inclusive. Guess the consignor had a thing for quarters.

    roadrunner
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • CoxeCoxe Posts: 11,139


    << <i>Interesting that they call the Norweb coin MS62. So far as I know, it's still in a PCGS AU58 holder. >>



    Sometimes PCGS AU58 is MS62, like at another top TPG.
    Select Rarities -- DMPLs and VAMs
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  • BarryBarry Posts: 10,100 ✭✭✭
    The 1870-S Seated dollar is one of the greatest American coin rarities. According to Mint records, none were produced

    Does that mean, on the government's whim, it could share storage space with the Langbord's 1933 gold coins?
  • shishshish Posts: 1,098 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tradedollarnut,

    Have you had the opportunity to examine the Norweb PCGS-58 coin? If yes, what's your opinion of the coin.
    I saw the obverse on display a few years ago. The lighting was poor but Wow! I really liked it.
    No worries, I've also seen the Ex. James Stacks coin in your collection, it's incredible!!!image
    Liberty Seated and Trade Dollar Specialist
  • notwilightnotwilight Posts: 12,864 ✭✭✭
    Great post. thanks.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Tradedollarnut,

    Have you had the opportunity to examine the Norweb PCGS-58 coin? If yes, what's your opinion of the coin.
    I saw the obverse on display a few years ago. The lighting was poor but Wow! I really liked it.
    No worries, I've also seen the Ex. James Stacks coin in your collection, it's incredible!!!image >>



    Nope - I wish! It's in Stellar's collection along with gem examples of the 1851, 1852 & 1859-S!!! [drool]
  • cmerlo1cmerlo1 Posts: 7,890 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wow....thanks for an awesome post.
    You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
  • RichieURichRichieURich Posts: 8,359 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Shish, please turn on your private message function.

    I agree, this is a great coin and a major rarity. It will be interesting to see what it sells for. Thanks, TDN for posting it!

    An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Note that Stellar's coins are an excellent example of opportunity sometimes being more important than price to a collector. I would gladly pay him a 50% premium above market to acquire his coins, but they simply aren't for sale...
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Goes off tonite - any predictions? image
  • fcfc Posts: 12,788 ✭✭✭
    i will put in a guess of under 300,000.

    i think the coin market has already seen the top and things will
    start going down.

    high end and low end.

    (my guess is based on nothing).
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'll predict 550K plus the juice. That's a lot of money for a coin that is one small "s" away from being worth $300.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • ColonialCoinUnionColonialCoinUnion Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I'll predict 550K plus the juice. That's a lot of money for a coin that is one small "s" away from being worth $300. >>



    I can think of an awful lot of coins I'd select ahead of this one for $550K. Or even $50K.
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,719 ✭✭✭✭✭
    terrific thread

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • An overall pleasing coin, with fanastic rarity. Certainly a winner in my book image
  • My guess is $385K hammer and will probably be viewed as a bargain over the next couple of years. I think certain coins are not as connected to the ups and downs of the coin market cycle and a coin that is as tough as this one will continue to hold it's true value........IMHO
    Fountain of Useless Information
  • coindeucecoindeuce Posts: 13,471 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I'll predict 550K plus the juice. That's a lot of money for a coin that is one small "s" away from being worth $300. >>



    I can think of an awful lot of coins I'd select ahead of this one for $550K. Or even $50K. >>



    For that kind of money, I'd rather have the PCGS-64 1876-CC Twenty Cent from this sale. At $180K after close of internet bidding, it has already exceeded the hammer price from DLRC's Richmond Sale.

    "Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
    http://www.americanlegacycoins.com

  • i am with Andy on this one, $550,000K +juice. Awesome rarity!
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>i will put in a guess of under 300,000.

    i think the coin market has already seen the top and things will
    start going down.

    high end and low end.

    (my guess is based on nothing). >>



    The PR64 1894-S dime just fetched $1.35M plus the juice. That ain't weak! image
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    btw - my personal prediction is a mere $285k plus the juice.
  • UtahCoinUtahCoin Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Can somebody meet me at the corner of the SF Mint about 3am Sunday morning with a pneumatic hammer. Thanks
    I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector.
    Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
  • pontiacinfpontiacinf Posts: 8,915 ✭✭


    << <i>Can somebody meet me at the corner of the SF Mint about 3am Sunday morning with a pneumatic hammer. Thanks >>



    imageimageimageimageimageimage
    image

    Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
  • fcfc Posts: 12,788 ✭✭✭
    btw - my personal prediction is a mere $285k plus the juice.

    well i will be darned. i picked a price that closely matches a high
    end expert collector's choice.

    lets see if we are right or wrong. i will have to check later tonight
    or tommorrow for the final price.

    The PR64 1894-S dime just fetched $1.35M plus the juice. That ain't weak!

    i read about that and just shook my head. so much money for a coin.
    scary moon money.
  • <<My guess is $385K hammer>>

    I really hope you are wrong...image The 20 cent piece, (I once had one) went for $350,000+. Keep in mind these three (1894-s dime, 1876-CC 20cent, 1870-S Dollar) were in a collection for a LOOOONNGG time. The dime is one of the three GEMS that exist.
    The Accumulator - Dark Lloyd of the Sith

    image
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The PR64 1894-S dime just fetched $1.35M plus the juice. That ain't weak!

    At just over $1.5 MILL, it makes the recent sale of the PF66 look somewhat cheap and under $2 MILL.

    I almost bid on the 1876-cc 20c piece in the 1988 ANA sale. Believe it was either MS65 or MS66. Went for a piddly $85K.

    The better date seated in Stack's went very strong imo...esp the quarters. It seems most nearly every key date seated quarter in VF went for $2K to $3K. That's multiples of CDN. Maybe now Coin Values will adjust those bids upward a tad. $1000-$1200 is just too low. I was happy to see the semi-cleaned 1842-0 SD in VG go for $1207. If goes for $1200 in Fine per Coin Values.

    roadrunner
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    At just over $1.5 MILL, it makes the recent sale of the PF66 look somewhat cheap and under $2 MILL.

    Yeah, but that 66 is fugly.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    BTW - the 1870-S realized about $500k with the juice. The market ain't weak for real rarities! image
  • fcfc Posts: 12,788 ✭✭✭
    my my. i wonder what two people wanted that coin and who won it?

    a half million dollars. imagine the coins that could buy instead of
    just one. i would be all over the proof gold.
  • cheezhedcheezhed Posts: 5,669 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I guess my only question would be how such a great rarity got so much wear?

    Certainly people at that time must have known and appreciated the rarity?
    Many happy BST transactions
  • CoinosaurusCoinosaurus Posts: 9,614 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>BTW - the 1870-S realized about $500k with the juice. The market ain't weak for real rarities! image >>



    $552K to be exact.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
    $552K to be exact.

    480 plus the juice?
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is the S always this weak (I don't view coins as expensive as this one)? I'd hope there's a guarantee of authenticity on this lot (I don't bid in Stack's auctions, so I haven't read their fine print. I never take anything for granted or assume anything when it comes to money being involved).
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, the S is usually weak. It's fairly prominent on my coin, tho:


    image


  • Bruce,
    That 1870 S $ you have is one seriously great coin, love looking at the photo of it. I can't believe how strong the market is for great coins is at this time. I am more glad then ever that I traded the last of my Canadian for rare US.
    Best,
    Sid
  • jhdflajhdfla Posts: 3,025 ✭✭✭
    Awesome '70-s dollar...

    And yeah, most of the James Stacks' coins were so cool... the '73 cc quarter is another one that comes to mind..

    John
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,771 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Simply awesome 1870-S silver dollar, TDN. James A Stack (no relation to the Stacks coin firm family) simply had awesome taste.

    I am surprised you thought the auction would go for so low.

    There appears to be a growing price compression on this coin in that the cheapest coin will go for a strong price percentage-wise of the finest graded coin. This is normal and to be expected when there are not too many date/mm collector of this series.
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    am surprised you thought the auction would go for so low.

    I have to admit that I revised my projected price downward when someone pointed out that the other two rarites from the same collection were recently slabbed by PCGS, but the 70-S was not.
  • <<I guess my only question would be how such a great rarity got so much wear?>>

    Cheezhead:

    Remember, back in the day, many did not collect based on Mint Marks. Further more, MOST did not even know the 1870-S Dollar existed. Like the 1916/1916 Buffalo nickel - wear came before the know...
    The Accumulator - Dark Lloyd of the Sith

    image
  • RichieURichRichieURich Posts: 8,359 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I attended the auction and I was surprised at how quickly the bidding on the 1870-S dollar progressed - - the bidders were going faster than NYC cab drivers. imageimage Seriously, it is a great looking coin in person, hasn't been messed with, and since most of the surviving coins are circulated, there aren't any MS64 vs. MS65 debates. A very exciting auction!

    An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'd guess smoe people are kicking themselves for passing on Jack Lee's XF at $400k a few years back! image
  • Look who's back.... and sporting a PCGS VF-25 holder (Stacks only graded it VF-20). Wow, this is totally unexpected by me from everything i've heard and the pictures from the Stacks auction. Look how different the coin looks in the two pics, wow it's like night and day. And those fields to the right of Liberty looks suspect to me from the pics?
    Want to buy an auction catalog for the William Hesslein Sale (December 2, 1926). Thanks to all those who have helped us obtain the others!!!

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