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John J. Ford story in recent catalog-- misunderstood or misrepresented?
Longacre
Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
I was taking a read through Part XX of the John J. Ford catalog. In it, David Enders Tripp recounted a personal story about Ford in the introduction. The story is about three pages, so I will try to sumarize it here. It seems that in 1973, Tripp, just out of college, took a position as director of the coin department at Sotheby Park Bernet in New York. Ford came by to view an auction that Tripp organized, and pronounced that the contents were "Mickey Mouse". Ford told Tripp to call him when he had "real" material.
Four years later, Tripp took a consignment of an excessively rare gold Comita Americana medal. Tripp immediately called Ford to tell him about it, and Ford informed Tripp that it was a restrike and not an original, because Ford knew the original was sold a few years ago to Mary Benjamin. Undaunted, Tripp did a flurry of research and in his own mind, decided that the coin was an original and not a restrike.
The auction catalog came out, and when Ford saw the reference to the medal being original, Tripp was treated to a tirade over the phone by Ford which contained words "that he [Tripp] didn't even know existed." Tripp then invited Ford to view the medal in person. A few weeks passed, and Ford came to view the medal. After very close inspection, Ford told Tripp "with solemnity and absolute finality" that it was a restrike.
Fast forward to the auction, and Ford sits in the front row. He does not bid, but once the bids reached $25,000 (on a $10,000 estimate), Ford starts itching his ear and a mysterious man starts to bid simultaneously with the itches. Once the bidding got to $50,000, Ford's ear stopped itching, and he lost the coin at $51,000. Then Tripp writes,
"After the sale, still stunned by the price, I went up to Mr. Ford and mentioned, ironically I hoped, that it was a big price to pay for a restrike. He responded nonchalantly. He told me after he had seen me, just the night before the sale, Carl Carlson had shown him photos of the Boston example, the die rust was idential. The medal was real. Of course Ford had known all along. ... He was desperate to own a piece of American history that could not be duplicated, and had done what he could to secure it."
**************
Personally, I was a little disturbed by this story. Now Longacre knows about gamesmanship. I have been known to feather a 5 iron on the golf course when I know a hard 7 will do, when I see my playing partner peeking into my bag too much. However, this Ford story is a bit different. Does anyone think there is a fine line between a simple "misunderstanding" (for lack of a better term), and actual misrepresentaton? What are your views of this story?
Four years later, Tripp took a consignment of an excessively rare gold Comita Americana medal. Tripp immediately called Ford to tell him about it, and Ford informed Tripp that it was a restrike and not an original, because Ford knew the original was sold a few years ago to Mary Benjamin. Undaunted, Tripp did a flurry of research and in his own mind, decided that the coin was an original and not a restrike.
The auction catalog came out, and when Ford saw the reference to the medal being original, Tripp was treated to a tirade over the phone by Ford which contained words "that he [Tripp] didn't even know existed." Tripp then invited Ford to view the medal in person. A few weeks passed, and Ford came to view the medal. After very close inspection, Ford told Tripp "with solemnity and absolute finality" that it was a restrike.
Fast forward to the auction, and Ford sits in the front row. He does not bid, but once the bids reached $25,000 (on a $10,000 estimate), Ford starts itching his ear and a mysterious man starts to bid simultaneously with the itches. Once the bidding got to $50,000, Ford's ear stopped itching, and he lost the coin at $51,000. Then Tripp writes,
"After the sale, still stunned by the price, I went up to Mr. Ford and mentioned, ironically I hoped, that it was a big price to pay for a restrike. He responded nonchalantly. He told me after he had seen me, just the night before the sale, Carl Carlson had shown him photos of the Boston example, the die rust was idential. The medal was real. Of course Ford had known all along. ... He was desperate to own a piece of American history that could not be duplicated, and had done what he could to secure it."
**************
Personally, I was a little disturbed by this story. Now Longacre knows about gamesmanship. I have been known to feather a 5 iron on the golf course when I know a hard 7 will do, when I see my playing partner peeking into my bag too much. However, this Ford story is a bit different. Does anyone think there is a fine line between a simple "misunderstanding" (for lack of a better term), and actual misrepresentaton? What are your views of this story?
Always took candy from strangers
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
0
Comments
My view of your reaction is that you've obviously never seen how they play the game in the big city.
Check out the Southern Gold Society
I, too, think the story displays an incredible lack of ethics. This story makes some of the stuff on "How the West was Faked" seem more likely.
I quickly learned to detest John Ford as he was just as demeaning to me as a 17 year old teenager as the story told here.
Yet when I met the Norwebs in Cleveland just a little over a year later, they were like a breath of fresh air and were so nice to me. Now they were class!!
Does his personality and all his faults change or "tarnish" your opinion of his coins in any way?
What is your overall opinion of the coins in his collection?
Personally, if I had to choose between two coins - all other things being equal - and one of them had the Ford pedigree, I'd take the Ford coin...easy decision.
Yet Breen and Sheldon who have been caught or should have been caught in the act of crime do not create the same degree of conflict in me since I did not experience the terrible wrath of a negative personality to the extent I did with Ford.
It is an interesting topic and I am glad you brought it up along with Longacre starting this thread.
I never had any personal interaction with him though...good or bad. I understand why you would feel conflicted about owning a Ford coin.
As to owning a Ford pedigree, Ford was merely the custodian of the pieces in his collection. He did not, as a rule, create them. The pieces themselves should not be diminished or tarnished by his having owned them.
On the other hand, I personally would not add any value, monetary or otherwise, to a piece because he once owned it. That is merely my personal opinion, and others may disagree.
TD
But more so if you were a nobody, he had no use for you. He did not like kids from what I saw.
I remember him at the New York Grand Central Coin Convention at the old Statler Hotel across the street from the Madison Square Garden circa 1969 being very demeaning to some 14-15 year olds who wanted to ask him a question. He was downright nasty, not just grumpy.
If you were someone see as important meaning a potential source of coins for him, then he was very different.
Another well known coin collector, Harold Bareford who used to frequent with Ford in New York City was clearly miffed at Ford's behavior from what I was told in collecting circles.
But most of all, I was simply afraid of John Ford. He scared me like no one I ever remembered. Think of John Pittman on his worst day being cranky and in a bad mood and you had John Ford on his best day.
But more so if you were a nobody, he had no use for you. He did not like kids from what I saw.
I remember him at the New York Grand Central Coin Convention at the old Statler Hotel across the street from the Madison Square Garden circa 1969 being very demeaning to some 14-15 year olds who wanted to ask him a question. He was downright nasty, not just grumpy.
If you were someone see as important meaning a potential source of coins for him, then he was very different.
Another well known coin collector, Harold Bareford who used to frequent with Ford in New York City was clearly miffed at Ford's behavior from what I was told in collecting circles.
But most of all, I was simply afraid of John Ford. He scared me like no one I ever remembered. Think of John Pittman on his worst day being cranky and in a bad mood and you had John Ford on his best day.
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Happy collecting, Oreville
I knew both John Ford and John Pittman well. And neither was as described by Oreville.
Denga
(my own experiences), I find Oreville's comments quite the norm.
In fact my short list of honest dealers in those earlier years was extremely short and did not include more than 1 or 2 of my dozen or so local B&M dealers. That was the way it was.
If many of today's collectors would only sell off a coin or two along the way to test their current dealers, only then would they realize that the game is not so radically different from Oreville's 1960's and 70's.
roadrunner
<< <i>oreville Saturday September 29, 2007 Coinosaurus: Indeed.
But more so if you were a nobody, he had no use for you. He did not like kids from what I saw.
I remember him at the New York Grand Central Coin Convention at the old Statler Hotel across the street from the Madison Square Garden circa 1969 being very demeaning to some 14-15 year olds who wanted to ask him a question. He was downright nasty, not just grumpy.
If you were someone see as important meaning a potential source of coins for him, then he was very different.
Another well known coin collector, Harold Bareford who used to frequent with Ford in New York City was clearly miffed at Ford's behavior from what I was told in collecting circles.
But most of all, I was simply afraid of John Ford. He scared me like no one I ever remembered. Think of John Pittman on his worst day being cranky and in a bad mood and you had John Ford on his best day.
-------------------------
Happy collecting, Oreville
I knew both John Ford and John Pittman well. And neither was as described by Oreville.
Denga >>
John Pittman was a 24kt B*****D. While I was working for the ANA during the 1980 silver boom, I rescued a defective and unissued ANA Medal Of Merit from a Colorado Springs dealer's silver bucket. I took it to the next Midwinter convention, and when Pittman came over to use my microscope I took it out of my briefcase and asked if he had any interest in it. He said he could use it to display with the engraved piece he had been awarded, to show the other side, and bought it. He then ran right over to Ed Rochette and reported me for dealing on the floor. Ed just laughed it off.
John Ford was Dr. Norman Vincent Peale compared to John Pittman.
TD
I like to think that Ford actually dropped out so the Museum could have the medal. How can you know his intentions? The medal would have been one of the centerpieces of his collection, that is for certain. John could be very generous, and from what I understand, was not boastful about this.
I am surprised that Stacks would publish that acccount written that way.
Actually, I am not surprised at all, just disappointed.
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i> I have been known to feather a 5 iron on the golf course when I know a hard 7 will do, when I see my playing partner peeking into my bag too much >>
Longacre - Say it aint so!!!!
<< <i>I like to think that Ford actually dropped out so the Museum could have the medal. >>
Considering he bid the coin up to $50,000, that sure was generous of him.
great guy with a very interesting background in the coin business. After reading "How the west was faked" and other
things I have heard my opinion of him has taken quite a hit.
roadrunner
He once sold a fake coin to Mrs. Nobweb along with a far fetched story of its history but he was nice about it of course.
<< <i>-- "John Pittman was a 24kt B*****D. . . . John Ford was Dr. Norman Vincent Peale compared to John Pittman." --
I have heard that a past president of the ANA was a hard core racist and the implication that it was John Pittman.
Does anyone know about that?
Ford was stingy with information. In our interactions, he would give up no useful information until after a catalogue had been published, at which time he would call up to complain about the info being wrong. Someone close to him once told me that I should have been flattered he called at all -- that by telling me I was wrong he thought I was worth salvaging!
While he was not exactly cuddly, Ford and I tended to get along pretty well. He judged collectors on their taste and knowledge extremely harshly. But he was fascinating to be around all the same.
Betts medals, colonial coins, US Mint medals, foreign coins found in early America, and other numismatic Americana
The problem area arises from when John Ford began as a professional coin dealer; beginning in 1950 working for New Netherlands coin company.
It was during the timeframe of the 1950's when his "talents" and "capabilities" were developed. I have copies of most of Ford's personal correspondence from 1954 to 1958, and will eventually edit these into a brief history of his various coin dealings during that time.
It will reveal much about the man.