Omar Vizquel. Hall of Famer?
RonBurgundy
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The numbers and the overall career really look pretty similar to Luis Aparicio. I say yes.
Ron
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Ron Burgundy
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Never a league leader in anything, great defensive player, but the hall already has a great defensive player with zero offense - ozzie smith.
Aparicio:
18 Seasons 2599 10230 1335 2677 394 92 83 791 736 742 506 136 .262
Vizquel:
18 Seasons 2583 9465 1334 2592 416 70 76 862 940 951 380 152 .274 .340 .357 .697
Looks identical to me. He's in.
Ron
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I can't believe this is even a discussion.
They played in completely different eras, and when your defense boils down to a marginal HoFer, you know you've lost.
The strongest case for why Vizquel shouldn't make the Hall-of-Fame is that Trammell was better shortstop and he didn't make it. When there are better players at the same position not it, how can Vizquel be a truly worth candidate
Over the past two decades Jeter, Larkin, and Rodriguez are all better and Tejada could surpass him soon
Ozzie Smith is probably the greatest defensive player in history and better offensively
He could make it, and there are certainly worse players already in, but it would simply be a pretty major inconsistency
To put Vizquel in while Alan Trammel is sitting out is absurd. No need to elaborate on the two, as if one can't see it, then I would rather not do baseball 101 again and pull my hair out because of ignorance.
Forget about the obvious here, there is a guy who is similar to Vizquel who is not in the Hall either, and that is Dave Concepcion. Vizquel was flashy on defense, but that doesn't equate to making more outs.
In the BP fielding runs, they have Vizquel and Concepcion in fielding runs as follows....
Concepcion 146 above average
Vizquel 103 above average.
I will also put Concepcion every bit as good as Vizquel if you go by the subjective 'eye' test...that is who 'looked' better. Most people's eyes completely lie to them, but for the novices, they aren't any different.
Offensively, here are their OPS+ for their careers. They both played very long....
Concepcion 88
Vizquel 84
Also keep in mind that a higher OPS+ is easier to achive in Vizquel's era, so that gap is even wider.
He wasn't even as good a fielder as Belanger. That isn't a negative, but he just wasn't.
-skinpinch
Trying to make objective appraisals is not a dis. Anyone would have a hard time keeping Vizquel out of the top five defensive shortstops in history. He has had over 10 years where he has most definitely helped his team. Far too many players that are not in the Hall-of-Fame have achieved more success than that
If he keeps playing and if his hit total rises ... he is still at the point where he is no longer even an above average player, so if he is not doing very much to help his team win, what he does in his 40s should not impact his place in history
Smith was one of the best baserunners in history and played in a much less offensive era
He might not get in the HOF but he is without a doubt one of the best SS in the last 30 years.
Just like Derek Jeter when he approaches 4,300 hits.
"The answer was in the Patriots eyes. Gone were the swagger and c0ck sure smirks, replaced by downcast eyes and heads in hands. For his poise and leadership Eli Manning was named the game's MVP. The 2007 Giants were never perfect nor meant to be. They were fighters, scrappers....now they could be called something else, World Champions."
HOF Monitor: Batting - 104.5 (138) (Likely HOFer > 100)
"The answer was in the Patriots eyes. Gone were the swagger and c0ck sure smirks, replaced by downcast eyes and heads in hands. For his poise and leadership Eli Manning was named the game's MVP. The 2007 Giants were never perfect nor meant to be. They were fighters, scrappers....now they could be called something else, World Champions."
He might not get in the HOF but he is without a doubt one of the best SS in the last 30 years."
This is correct. And if he had played in New York or Beantown we'd all be on here having an Omar JOS singing his praises and his HOF credentials. This is what gets me about the HOF debate. We cry about Jim Rice not being in, but flip it around and put him on Milwaukee or Kansas City and no one would even remember Jim Rice.
Someone mentioned Concepcion. Please. I saw both Omar and Concepcion in their primes and as good as Davey was, on his best day he did not approach what Omar could do in the field. In his prime, Vizquel was an absolute defensive magician.
Ron
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better than Smith hands down.
I could not disagree more.
Hunter is the only one and Vizuel won't be on the ballot until at least 25 years have passed since that mistake. Certainly not Carter who was a Gold Glove catcher and a much better hitter than Vizquel. Veterans committee made plenty of abominable selections and did favor the New York teams heavily, but that was all players who played in the 1920s, 30s, and 40s and enough people on the committee knew them personally to push them forward. That nepotism has hopefully been cleared up for good
When one underserving player from New York (who was not really any worse than Lemon who played his entire career in Cleveland) it is silly to try and claim the home city makes a difference in the mind of the baseball writers
Good grief. The prime reason there even is a debate with some of those guys is because of the jersey they wore. Again, put these guys (some, not all) in a Texas Rangers uniform and all of a sudden they look more like Toby Harrah and Buddy Bell. For crying out loud, would we have a Jim Thome debate about his Hall credentials with 500 HR's had he donned the pinstripes? I think not.
Riddle me this: Put Phil Rizzuto in an Indians uniform and Omar in pinstripes. Same numbers, same accomplishments. Tell me who gets in.
Ron
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In fact, I am wearing my "YANKEES SUCK" t-shirt as I type this.
If you let a continually sliding scale in...soon it will be Dave Kingman, Porfio Altamarino and Mario Mendoza being considered because they weren't significantly different than the worst player let in at that position...
This says it all.
Many of the disscussions on getting IFFY players in to the HOF is based on "well, so n so is in"...............Sound like a discussion my 12 year olds would have
"If I ever decided to do a book, I've already got the title-The Bases Were Loaded and So Was I"-Jim Fregosi
He might not be a HOF but defensively FEW folks in the HOF are on his level.
<< <i>Riddle me this: Put Phil Rizzuto in an Indians uniform and Omar in pinstripes. Same numbers, same accomplishments. Tell me who gets in >>
Most likely niether. As I already wrote, Rizzuto made the Hall-of-Fame because of nepotism on the Veterans Committee (same with Reese, Jackson, Lazzeri), fortunately it looks like that is being eliminated so Vizquel could not benefit from it no matter what. Baseball writers have always had far higher standards, standards that Vizquel does not meet
We debate the idea of Thome (and Vizquel) because that is what baseball fans do. Just as over 15% of the writers did not vote for Winfield, a small percentage will believe Thome doesn't deserve to make it either
If there really was a big enough bias to move Vizquel from undeserving to elected based on the uniform it should be evident based on past voting. But it isn't. Otherwise you would be able to answer with what undeserving players have the baseball writers elected because of the city they played in? Along with Hunter, maybe Sandberg, maybe Cater or Fisk. And even then it may have more to do with personality and a famous World Series homerun than the city. And those three were much better players than Vizquel
And by the way, I think that Aparicio belongs. I was not arguing that because Luis is in, Omar should be admitted.
Ron
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<< <i>I'm not making the argument that because so and so is there, someone else deserves to be in. I am saying that where someone plays has an impact on whether they get in, especially for those who are marginal. >>
But your entire argument has been based on Aparicio being in....in fact, your first two posts states as much.
<< <i>And by the way, I think that Aparicio belongs. I was not arguing that because Luis is in, Omar should be admitted. >>
Hmm...
<< <i> The numbers and the overall career really look pretty similar to Luis Aparicio. I say yes.
Are you sure? Here are Omar's numbers compared to Aparicio:
Aparicio:
18 Seasons 2599 10230 1335 2677 394 92 83 791 736 742 506 136 .262
Vizquel:
18 Seasons 2583 9465 1334 2592 416 70 76 862 940 951 380 152 .274 .340 .357 .697
Looks identical to me. He's in. >>
The entire basis for your argument for Omar's induction is based on Aparicio.
Omar does all those things and it's a sure bet he doesn't really care if he gets in, just watch him play!!! i kind of think he enjoys what he's doing and takes everything in stride, ultimately he'll fade into the horizon and leave us to talk about what he did with his glove. shame on us all for not appreciating the intangibles he holds as important while he plays-----respect for the game, respect for his teammates and what comes across to me as genuine humility.
Ron
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The numbers were take from baseball-reference.com.
Scout.com > Seattle
Win Shares and the Hall of Fame – 2007 Update
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Bill Gilbert
TheSTLCardinals.com Feb 2, 2007
Bill Gilbert’s third annual assessment of the Hall of Fame prospects for active players using the Bill James Win Share system. In the past, James has stated that 400 Win Shares means absolute enshrinement.
For the past three years, I have taken a look at the Hall of Fame credentials of active players based on the Bill James Win Share system. In the Win Shares system, James states that 400 career Win Shares means absolute enshrinement in the Hall of Fame and 300 Win Shares makes a player more likely than not to be a Hall of Famer. However, he cautions, while those standards describe the past, they are not as likely to describe the future as accurately. Players with 300 to 350 Win Shares in the past have generally gone into the Hall of Fame. In the future, they more often will not.
The Win Shares system provides a useful method of examining the body of work that a player has accumulated in his career. In the case of active players, it is interesting to see if they are on track for the Hall.
The first list includes active players with 300 or more Win Shares. Topping the list is Barry Bonds with 686 Win Shares, a total exceeded by only Babe Ruth (756) and Ty Cobb (722). Despite gaining only four Win Shares in 2006, Gary Sheffield joined Roger Clemens and Craig Biggio as the only other active players with 400 Win Shares. Five players passed the 300 mark in 2006: Jeff Kent, Randy Johnson, Jim Thome, Tom Glavine and Chipper Jones. Glavine gained five Win Shares on Johnson in 2006 and is on the verge of passing him to become the top left-handed pitcher of his generation, based on Win Shares.
Active Players with 300 Win Shares (WS)
1/1/07 '06 WS thru
Age WS 2006 Comment
Pos. Players
Barry Bonds 42 25 686 Only Ruth and Cobb have more.
Craig Biggio 41 11 422 Closing in on Ripken at 427.
G. Sheffield 38 4 402 Now in can’t miss territory over 400.
Frank Thomas 38 21 383 Huge '06 comeback ensures election.
K. Griffey Jr 37 9 367 Early success should be enough.
A. Rodriguez 31 25 340 Still piles up stats in an off-year.
Manny Ramirez 34 27 334 Had best year on this list.
Mike Piazza 38 11 320 Best hitting catcher ever.
Jeff Kent 38 18 313 Building a pretty strong case.
B. Williams 38 8 311 Nearing the end, probably short of Hall.
Jim Thome 36 25 304 Has a shot after comeback in 2006.
Chipper Jones 34 22 301 A couple more good years and he's in.
Pitchers
Roger Clemens 44 11 432 Fifth on all-time list for pitchers.
Greg Maddux 40 12 383 Sure bet for the Hall.
Randy Johnson 43 8 305 Another sure bet despite recent decline.
Tom Glavine 40 13 303 Should reach 300 wins in 2007.
A strong group of players have apparently completed their careers in 2005 with 300+ Win Shares and will appear on the Hall of Fame ballot for the first time in 2011 if they stay retired.
1/1/07 WS thru
Age 2006 Comment
Player
Rafael Palmeiro 42 394 Left under a cloud.
Jeff Bagwell 38 387 Should lead this class.
Sammy Sosa 38 311 Ugly exit in '05. May be back.
Larry Walker 40 307 May not be enough.
John Olerud 38 301 Not enough power.
The next list is of players with 250 Win Shares through 2006. These players should get on the HOF ballot but most will not be elected. Three players moved into this group in 2006, Moises Alou, Carlos Delgado and Omar Vizquel.
Active Players with 250 Win Shares
Age on WS in WS thru
1/1/2007 2006 2006 Comment
Position Players
Luis Gonzalez 39 12 297 Doesn’t have the numbers.
Steve Finley 41 10 296 Same category as Gonzalez.
Ivan Rodriguez 35 24 296 A sure bet.
Jason Giambi 35 22 283 Needs 3 or 4 more big years.
Julio Franco 48 3 278 Amazing career but not HOF.
Derek Jeter 32 32 277 Another sure thing.
Jim Edmonds 36 11 274 Not quite HOF caliber.
Kenny Lofton 39 12 273 Lengthy but not dominant career.
Moises Alou 40 14 263 Missed too much playing time.
Carlos Delgado 34 22 262 Borderline if he stays productive.
Omar Vizquel 39 20 250 Way short of Ozzie Smith’s 325 WS.
Pitcher
John Smoltz 39 15 272 Will get some consideration.
The final list is of active players that have 200 Win Shares. Many are productive veterans with good careers but without HOF credentials. Only those on this list younger than 35 have a realistic chance. Six players joined this list in 2006: Johnny Damon, Ray Durham, Albert Pujols, Miguel Tejada, Nomar Garciaparra and Jason Kendall.
Active Players with 200 Win Shares
Age on WS in WS thru
1/1/2007 2006 2006 Comment
Position Players
Bobby Abreu 32 27 249 Needs a long career.
Brian Giles 35 21 249 Slowing down too soon.
Vladimir Guerrero 30 24 243 Piling up HOF stats.
Scott Rolen 31 21 235 Needs to stay healthy to have a shot.
Tim Salmon 38 4 232 End of a good but not great career.
Andruw Jones 29 22 232 Early start gives him a chance.
Todd Helton 33 21 230 Decline phase started early.
Shawn Green 34 11 225 Not a serious candidate.
Ryan Klesko 35 1 223 Doesn’t seem to have much left.
Ruben Sierra 41 0 222 Did not sustain early promise.
Johnny Damon 33 21 216 Won’t generate HOF credentials.
Ray Durham 35 20 212 Nice comeback in 2006 but way short.
Edgardo Alfonzo 33 0 211 Career cratered early.
Albert Pujols 26 37 210 On pace for 525 WS in 15 year career.
Miguel Tejada 30 23 210 Has time to put up the numbers.
Reggie Sanders 39 5 206 Many stops but not Cooperstown.
Nomar Garciaparra 33 17 203 Too much time lost to injuries.
Jason Kendall 32 23 202 Durable but not productive enough.
Pitchers
Pedro Martinez 35 6 249 Dominance will get him in.
Mike Mussina 38 14 248 Still has work to do.
Curt Schilling 40 15 242 Post-season success will help his case.
David Wells 43 4 207 Way short.
Bill Gilbert is a baseball analyst and writer and member of the Society for American Baseball Research (SABR).
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Story URL: http://mariners.Scout.com/a.z?s=318&p=2&c=615429
Copyright © 2007 Scout.com and TheSTLCardinals.com
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
He was an average hitter, who hit well below replacement player value for power and was great defensively. Other than Ozzie Smith, can anyone name a single player inducted for their defensive prowess?
Bill Mazeroski.
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John
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
+1 for a mighty fine career to Omar V.
brian
Omar Vizquel was a LESSER player than Dave Concepcion.
The most comprehensive offensive measurement is situational batter runs. It accounts for all those little things people talk about, only their proper value is given, but more importantly it accounts for all the bigger things in correct proportion. It also accounts for ease of offense. Situational Batter Runs are taken from the actual MLB play by play data for every player from 1958 to now.
SItuational Batter RUns
Vizquel -175
Concepcion -63
Davey has him by over 100 situational batter runs. The negative figure is simply an expression of below league average.
FIelding. Baseball Prospectus fielding runs.
Vizquel 84
Concepcion 149
So what he have is Concepcion in a lead of 177 runs in fielding/batting. RonBurgundy, I saw both play too, and my eyes did not see what you saw. I saw what is more in line with the objective results...Concepcion being 177 runs better in combination of offense/defense.
Fielding runs are always going to be more margin for error. No margin for error can make up the 177 run difference that is expressed between the two.
Vizquel's flashiness fools people some, but when dissected by video(every play is looked at), it shows that the flashiness does not equate to similar proportion of runs saved.
He was an excellent fielder, and a very good player. He simpy was not as good as Dave Concepcion. He was not nearly as good as Alan Trammel.
Yes, somebody's glasses may have seen Vizquel being superior...but I think those were Rose colored glasses.
HOF? No. Not in merit, and will not in the vote either.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.