Jorge Posada: Future Hall of Famer?
SeatedCoin
Posts: 1,040
in Sports Talk
Does the guy have a snowball's chance in hell of getting into the Hall of Fame in the future besides buying a ticket? At 36 years of age he seems to be putting up even better Offensive numbers and is having a career year. If he keeps up his Batting Average he will have the highest single season average EVER in Major League history for a Switch Hitting Catcher. Kind of funny that he is in his walk year. Coincidence?
Trolls and Yankee haters need not respond.
Trolls and Yankee haters need not respond.
"The answer was in the Patriots eyes. Gone were the swagger and c0ck sure smirks, replaced by downcast eyes and heads in hands. For his poise and leadership Eli Manning was named the game's MVP. The 2007 Giants were never perfect nor meant to be. They were fighters, scrappers....now they could be called something else, World Champions."
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"The answer was in the Patriots eyes. Gone were the swagger and c0ck sure smirks, replaced by downcast eyes and heads in hands. For his poise and leadership Eli Manning was named the game's MVP. The 2007 Giants were never perfect nor meant to be. They were fighters, scrappers....now they could be called something else, World Champions."
Steve
I agree. If Posada stays healthy he definitely has a shot.
"The answer was in the Patriots eyes. Gone were the swagger and c0ck sure smirks, replaced by downcast eyes and heads in hands. For his poise and leadership Eli Manning was named the game's MVP. The 2007 Giants were never perfect nor meant to be. They were fighters, scrappers....now they could be called something else, World Champions."
TED SIMMONS 1771 (Final game was in 1988)
WALLY SCHANG 1435 (Final game was in 1931)
JORGE POSADA 1342
ALAN ASHBY 1299 (Final game was in 1989)
BUTCH WYNEGAR 1247 (Final game was in 1988)
DUKE FARRELL 1003 (Final game was in 1905)
TODD HUNDLEY 1096
Now none of these guys are Hall of Famers so take from this list whatever you want. Either way it is impressive what Posada has done as far as a switch hitting cathers goes.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>repeat this season each year until he's 39 or 40 and he has a shot. >>
Exactly.
His numbers don't really compare to some of the catchers in the hall. He would need to put up numbers like he has this year over the next 4 or 5 seasons to even make it past that first ballot.
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
ted simmons is a HOF catcher. too bad no one else realizes it.
<< <i>"Now none of these guys are Hall of Famers so take from this list whatever you want"
ted simmons is a HOF catcher. too bad no one else realizes it. >>
I'll second that.
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
<< <i>
<< <i>"Now none of these guys are Hall of Famers so take from this list whatever you want"
ted simmons is a HOF catcher. too bad no one else realizes it. >>
I'll second that. >>
And I'll third it!!!
Steve
<< <i>"Now none of these guys are Hall of Famers so take from this list whatever you want"
ted simmons is a HOF catcher. too bad no one else realizes it. >>
I couldn't agree more but that would be a debate for another time. You know .... that debate could and will go on forever as every guy possible is brought up for consideration. The fact is there are only 16 catchers in the Hall .... which is amazing. None of which are on the switch hitting catchers list.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Solid catcher, but his HoF chances are nonexistant.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
No amount of defensive shortcomings would hurt Piazza based on his overwhelming offensive numbers.
<< <i>Piazza was a subpar catcher defensively, but dominated offensively.
No amount of defensive shortcomings would hurt Piazza based on his overwhelming offensive numbers. >>
Mike Piazza was an AWFUL catcher. How come there is no outcry about "inflated" offensive stats in this era with him? Why not? Same treatment for EVERYONE right?
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
They aren't even in the same conversation.
<< <i>His numbers are so overwhelmingly better than any other catcher in his era....unlike those trying to compare Posada's numbers against those of bygone eras.
They aren't even in the same conversation. >>
Ummmmmm what about this eras "over blown" stats that you so convienently use ? Where is that? Is it GONE now? Poof ..... JUST LIKE THAT?
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Piazza, in 13,552 innings has given up 1,399 stolen bases and caught 423 for a percentage of .232
Posada, in 11,047 innings has gven up 786 stolen bases and caught 330 for a percentage of .296
There is more to throwing out runners for catchers of course. In terms of defensive runs, here are the baseballprospectus fielding runs for their careers.
Piazza -145
Posada +28
That doesn't look too far off...but fielding isn't perfect.
HITTING:
Batter runs
Piazza 494
Posada 184
Posada has a few more years of life left at catcher, and he could add to those batter runs (has 35 so far this year).
Total Batter runs and Fielding Runs
Piazza 349
Posada 212
The more interesting comparison to me is to Ivan Rodrgiuez.
Batter Runs
Irod 101
Posada 212
Fielding Runs
Irod 204
Posada 28
Total
Irod 305
Posada 212
Irod has only been able to mass a total of NINE batting/fielding runs the past three seasons combined. In other words, his decline is here already. A few more decent seasons for Posada, and he very well may merit mention in the same breath as Piazza and Irod.
Of those three catchers, Piazza has better hitting in the runners on base splits, Posada next best, and Irod third. So in reality, Piazza's offensive value is a tick higher than those batter runs show, Irod's a bit lower.
-Skinpinch
As mentioned, if Posada played in Kansas City, no one would even know how to spell his name.
<< <i>Absolutely not.
As mentioned, if Posada played in Kansas City, no one would even know how to spell his name. >>
of course, Jerry
Thats tough words coming from a fan of a team whos catcher is not even a dingle berry swinging on the underside of Posada
edited to say ..... and he is your CAPTAIN too
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>Absolutely not.
As mentioned, if Posada played in Kansas City, no one would even know how to spell his name. >>
of course, Jerry
Thats tough words coming from a fan of a team whos catcher is not even a dingle berry swinging on the underside of Posada
edited to say ..... and he is your CAPTAIN too
Whoa - ask any pitcher in baseball who they would rather have catch them, and I'll wager 99% of them will say Varitek. Leadership, defense, and game-calling all strongly favor Varitek. Posada might be a better hitter (and I say might be), but it's far more important to a team to have a catcher that has Varitek's ability rather than Posada's.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
By you saying the same old tired and cheap things that guys say about Yankees ....... "well if he played in KC he wouldn't be known bla bla bla drone drone drone" points directly at the huge amount of Red SOx koolaide that even you guzzle down. Jorge Posada is a guy who any team would have signed on the dotted line for the career he has had thus far
Edited: Oh, and to just further this discussion a bit .... Jason Varitek would give up his first born child for Posada's arm.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Jason Varitek career:
Games Played - 1128
Games Strated - 1041
Innings - 9231.2
Total Chances - 8000
Put Outs - 7524
Assists - 418
Errors - 58
Double Plays - 56
Fielding % - .993
Range Factor - 7.74
Zone Rating - .965
Passed Balls - 93
SB Allowed - 713
Caught Stealing - 246
Caught Stealing % - .257
Catcher Earned Run average - 4.18
Jorge Posada Career:
Games Played - 1345
Games Started - 1242
Innings - 11056.1
Total Chances - 9197
Put Outs - 8514
Assists - 610
Errors - 93
Double Plays - 71
Fielding % - .992
Range Factor - 7.43
Zone Rating - .926
Passed Balls - 121
SB Allowed - 786
Caught Stealing - 331
Caught Stealing % - .296
Catcher Earned Run average - 4.26
Both guys have edges here .... Jorge has played in 217 more games and some numbers would have to be adjusted. Some in Posada's favor, some in Varitek's favor. Looks pretty damn even steven. please do tell me just how (besides the Sox koolaid) that you think Jason Varitek is sooooo much better behind the plate then Jorge.
Then, throw in Jorge's switch hitting bat and you have a very strong case that Posada is the more desirable player.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>Until this year, he never hit higher than .281 and he never even had 150 hits. Hardly HOF numbers. >>
I don't disagree. In fact, I have not and will not present a case that argues that Jorge is a HOF'er especially when there are only 16 guys there at the catcher position. However, let the thread breathe and go where discussion takes it. If anybody wants to be a thread cop and feels its his or HER duty to remind us all that Jorge probably is not a HOF'er then fine.
In any event, I will be interested in Jerry's response since he felt the need to claim how superior Varitek is to Jorge behind the plate. He may be .... but only slightly .... and if one takes the very CONSERVATIVE approach about each players offense and points out that Jorge has the edge there then we are talking about two guys who are VERY comparable ...
Do I dare have to point out AGAIN that when it comes to SWITCH HITTING catchers there is not much to compare Jorge too? There is not ....
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>In any event, I will be interested in Jerry's response since he felt the need to claim how superior Varitek is to Jorge behind the plate. He may be .... but only slightly .... and if one takes the very CONSERVATIVE approach about each players offense and points out that Jorge has the edge there then we are talking about two guys who are VERY comparable ... >>
Varitek is better behind the plate, and not slightly. MLB pitchers, whom I would guess know a thing or two about catcher's value, have consistently cited Varitek as being the best. Not one of the best, but the best, behind the plate.
And Posada? Well, this season is supposed to be his great season, and he's definitely been hitting well (probably the best hitter on your team, after Arod). But his defense? Not so good, again. Posada has the 4th most passed balls in MLB this season. And how about his ability to handle bad pitches thrown? Not so good either. The Yankee pitching staff has the 5th most wild pitches in MLB this season, so he obviously isn't doing much there (the Red Sox by the way have the fewest wild pitches in MLB, not all due to Varitek of course, but certainly a factor). And, is there any catcher in MLB who gets his pitch call shook off by the pitcher more than Posada? Didn't Randy Johnson not want him to catch his games? I don't ever recall a pitcher (especially a HOF pitcher like Johnson) having an issue with Varitek.
So, I'll give you that Posada is a better hitter (at times) and the fact that he's a switch-hitter is a plus. But Varitek is no slouch with the bat, and his better defense and leadership of the team make him the better choice.
And not to sway off-topic, Posada will in no way, shape, or form, come anywhere near the Hall Of Fame without buying a ticket for himself.
Again, as I said BEFORE, both guys have edges. Jerry wishes to bring up areas that favor only Varitek. I even conceded that Varitek is better behind the plate. However, the gap is not nearly and not even close to what Jerry would like to believe.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
But I still would prefer Varitek on my team. Of course, my opinions might occasionally be slightly biased, by some accounts...
<< <i>Point taken - I agree with you Dan.
But I still would prefer Varitek on my team. Of course, my opinions might occasionally be slightly biased, by some accounts...
IF you did not favor Tek I would call the doctor and send him to your house
My opinion can be "slightly" biased so I am told too
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
he might have b@#ch slapped A-Rod but if I remember correctly Varitek got the worst of the deal and was out 2 games thereafter but A-Rod was in the starting lineup the following day.
"The answer was in the Patriots eyes. Gone were the swagger and c0ck sure smirks, replaced by downcast eyes and heads in hands. For his poise and leadership Eli Manning was named the game's MVP. The 2007 Giants were never perfect nor meant to be. They were fighters, scrappers....now they could be called something else, World Champions."