<< <i>Coin Fame - Seth, I believe that an adult who searches 20,000 Idaho quarters a year is worse than a man who masturbates 20,000 times a year.You must really be desperate for the money ! There are millions of I da ho quarters in gem and will always be thousands of gem Idaho quarters as long as you are alive. Is this your calling in life ? >>
Stewart,
I'm a bit baffled at your low blow shot at a coin hunter. Searching through business strikes is a hobby that reaches to the very core of coin collecting. Cents come to mind as the most searched coin in history, yet it has been minted by the Billions. You should be ashamed of yourself for such a comment! It doesn't speak well of your character.
<< <i>Seth: Lay it out a bit more.... 1. How many manhours spent searching 20,000 new state quarters? 2. Any costs associated with search (i.e. premiums for sealed cases, etc.)? 3. How many MS68 coins from search? Avg. asking price per coin? 4. So, what is the hourly rate for this work then? Wondercoin >>
1) Many hours & a lot of fun 2) There's quite a cost associated with searching. $500 face runs around $600 for most states, so you throw away $100 just to peek. Mint bags are even worse where $250 face is $320 + shipping. 3) We haven't found an MS68 Business Strike State Quarter in 2007 yet... We've made others, but it's been few and far between 68s and some low pop 67s. 4) Searching the 25c is more of a hobby than anything as they don't sell for much compared to costs. (Today) I think Doug said he makes about $10/hr one time. (And that he won't be quitting his day job to do it.) He might be worth more per hour than me if he does that well, so I won't be quitting my day job as a coin dealer either.
I think most serious collectors have found that they are cheaper to buy than to go find.
<< <i>Coin Fame - Seth, I believe that an adult who searches 20,000 Idaho quarters a year is worse than a man who masturbates 20,000 times a year.You must really be desperate for the money ! There are millions of I da ho quarters in gem and will always be thousands of gem Idaho quarters as long as you are alive. Is this your calling in life ? >>
Stewart,
I'm a bit baffled at your low blow shot at a coin hunter. Searching through business strikes is a hobby that reaches to the very core of coin collecting. Cents come to mind as the most searched coin in history, yet it has been minted by the Billions. <STRONG>You should be ashamed of yourself for such a comment!</STRONG> It doesn't speak well of your character.
Edited to say:
Have A Nice Day >>
Seth I just wanted to quote your reply to hammer that point home.
Stewart, Seth is Absolutely correct in his statement!! You are way out of line with that comment. The moment I read your post I also thought the comment speaks and shows your character very poorly. How many rolls and bags of coins have you searched in your life Stew??
<< <i>"How many rolls and bags of coins have you searched in your life Stew??"
Who gives a rats arse?
Personally I agree that it is sorta pathetic to do so. What a waste of time. >>
WOW...is this really your thoughts?
How do you think gem coins are around from the past. Do you actually believe that no one took the time to find nice looking coins and then saved them? Give me a break!! It is thanks to people like Seth that nice gem coins actually survive, IMO. I also agree with cladking in that I would search many more coins given some more free time. Its called a hobby and fun for some of us. So I would like to remind everyone here: COLLECT WHAT YOU LIKE!! If you don't like moderns, don't save them and use them for coasters, idk! But in all reality bashing moderns is really getting quite tasteless IMO. I don't sit here and talk about all the crusty crap you guys collect do I?
<< <i>"How many rolls and bags of coins have you searched in your life Stew??"
Who gives a rats arse?
Personally I agree that it is sorta pathetic to do so. What a waste of time. >>
I really hope you were being ironic or sarcastic here and it didn't come through in text. If not for all those people searching rolls and bags, where would you get all of those variety coins you sell? Those gem 1960-D Small/Large Lincolns I sold you didn't fall out of a tree, I bought them from someone who had searched mint bags in the early 1960s.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
I'm not sure why people who collect classic coins feel the need to bash modern coin collectors. Some people collect rocks, some collect baseball cards. So what? I even see less regard for modern bullion collecting. That seems quite naive if you ask me as that is the hottest market in coins. Sure, maybe some of you old farts aren't interested or the cost is prohibitive but it seems foolish for anyone in coins to criticize another area of coin collecting. Do you think somehow your shoebox of Liberty nickels makes you somehow better than someone who collects Roosies? Give us a break.
The more people who collect the more valuable coins get because there are more people after them. This is a good thing, duh! The modern bullion coins offer the first time in my lifetime that you can buy a coin that not only has a numismatic value but also a intrinsic metal value so it will always be worth what the metal is trading for even if no one wants to collect it. The other notion of all proofs being PR70 because of their special handling shows a basic lack of understanding as to what a PR70 is.
<< <i>I'm not sure why people who collect classic coins feel the need to bash modern coin collectors. >>
Because moderns are trash that should come with a warning label.
Russ, NCNE >>
So apparantly there is no age limit to post in this forum.
I respect whatever someone chooses to collect in terms of coins or currency and think it's a good hobby and investment. I myself collect very little modern circulation coins because I don't have an interest in them but I'm sure that those that do have a lot of fun doing so. I do like the Sacs and I grudgingly will work on the President Series if only to drive me crazy for the next 12 or 13 years it will take to complete.
I personally have zero problem with people collecting what they want. If I were collecting moderns, however, I don't believe I could swallow paying huge premiums for something that requires magnification to discern [ie: the difference between a 69 and a 70]. In my mind, paying large amounts of money for such small differences in quality is insane. Lest you think my opinion is limited to moderns, note that I often say the same thing about strike designations in classic coins.
<< <i>I personally have zero problem with people collecting what they want. If I were collecting moderns, however, I don't believe I could swallow paying huge premiums for something that requires magnification to discern [ie: the difference between a 69 and a 70]. In my mind, paying large amounts of money for such small differences in quality is insane. Lest you think my opinion is limited to moderns, note that I often say the same thing about strike designations in classic coins. >>
I would probably have to agree with you on this point. This is coming from a 100% modern collector. I might have 5 coins in my collection that are from before 1960. While I do pay top dollar for some moderns I will not own many 70's. The one I own now was really cheap compared to the 69 price and as such was a deal.
However there are people that do like the 70's and that is perfectly fine by me. If that is what they like then I am glad they found something they like to collect. I remember the feeling when I finally found the series I loved and it was truly sensational. While I may never understand why people pay big money for a 70 over a 69, I will never try to rob someone of the joy they get from owning it.
Griv - Good points. If you think about it.... there really isn't much difference (at least to me) between an Indian cent that upgrades from 66 to 67 (see other thread on the board) and becomes a $20,000 more expensive coin in its new holder the next day vs. a 70 coin that is worth thousands more than an 69 of the same date. If the difference between a 69 and 70 is sometimes tough to determine, wouldn't it be equally difficult to determine on the freshly upgraded Indian cent or other classic coin? Obviously. So, everyone should simply collect what they enjoy whether the coins are graded P-1, AU-58, MS66, MS67, MS69 or MS70 and respect others collecting decisions.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
In general, the difference between a 66 and a 67 is macro, whereas between a 69 and a 70 micro. I still remember standing in line behind a modern specialist talking to HRH. He asked why a certain coin wasn't a 70. After about a minute of scrutiny with a loupe, David pointed out a lint mark to him.
As to the other point, there's a ton of value in collecting high end for the grade coins in any era.
That is where I respectfully disagree. In general, the difference between 70 and 69 graded coins is macro with liner coins being the issue (and same is true - buy high, high end 69 coins for the future). Ditto for the 66 vs. 67 grade classics.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
You CAN"T compare in any way the IH cent in 66 67 and a 2003 Lincoln in 69 70.
The Indian is a tuff coin in both grades whereas there are literly a ton of the 2003's in 69. Most haven't been graded yet...because who cares!?
This is what blows my mind in the modern "TOP POP" coins. Yes, there are not many moderns in certain grades (ultra high), but there a MILLIONS in the next grade down! That makes a coin NOT rare. Rare coins are hard to find in all grades.
Is the rareness of the coin that makes the collection of such the only reason for collecting? That seems to be a self-serving view that is not healthy for the hobby in general. Collecting high grade moderns are not for everyone but the challenges of finding grade 69/70 coins is every bit as rewarding and I would contend that there are MORE modern coin collectors than non-modern collectors. The US Mint announced that the States Quarters program alone added 100 million new coin collectors. Now their definition of coin collectors is a bit broad but the point is that the new coinage is breathing life into a fairly stale hobby where too many old farts hide behind their rusted pieces of yester year. IMHO
<< <i>You CAN"T compare in any way the IH cent in 66 67 and a 2003 Lincoln in 69 70.
The Indian is a tuff coin in both grades whereas there are literly a ton of the 2003's in 69. Most haven't been graded yet...because who cares!?
This is what blows my mind in the modern "TOP POP" coins. Yes, there are not many moderns in certain grades (ultra high), but there a MILLIONS in the next grade down! That makes a coin NOT rare. Rare coins are hard to find in all grades. >>
You're wrong. You couldn't be more wrong.
Some moderns which are rare for their grade are pretty common one grade lower but others are rare in any grade. There are many that are extremely tough one and two grades lower.
While the 2003-P Lincoln is fairly common in MS-69 on what planet is this that there are a ton of them?
Doug: That would be fun, athough Long Beach might be a better venue for me. At the same time, you could do a blind test of 20 66/67 Lincoln cents and pick out the ones that are in PCGS 67 holders. In both piles, no 'liner coins" permitted (I have an idea how we can accomplish this which I can discuss with you) as my very point is the liner coins can go either way (classic or modern). And, each of us may bring our kids along to assist us in our selections - this will be great fun and I know my 2 kids will want to play along with me.
Wondercoin
What might also be neat... also doing the same thing with 20 NGC, ANACS and ICG coins of each pile.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
In both piles, no 'liner coins" permitted as my very point is the liner coins can go either way (classic or modern).
But isn't that exactly the point of many of the critics? That there are sufficient numbers of liner coins indistinguishable from those in the higher holder that command huge percentage premiums over those in the lower holder? That the number on the label far outweighs the distinguishable difference in quality?
TDN: I suppose, but, in all fairness, the outspoken "critics" are most often "critics" of moderns. You seldom have "critics" publicly attacking, for example, a 1909 Indian cent that goes up a single grade point from auction appearance to auction appearance and becomes worth roughly 10x-20x more than the last time it sold. Just curious TDN - do you see any parallels between the two situations (common date classics rising 10x-20x on a single point upgrade vs. common date moderns rising 10x-20x on a single point upgrade from 69 to 70 grade?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Absolutely I see parallels. That's the problem with any coin jumping tenfold or more on a single grade point. Grading is too imprecise and unpredictable to warrant such increases.
That is a good point as I have seen coins regrade to 70 on occation but it is not very common. But I think there might only be a handful of cases where the value of the coin is 10x from 69 to 70, especially in the bullion coins.
Griv: You are correct, that the majority of one point 70 upgrades in moderns are far less than 10x jumps (same for classics of course). Yet, when a single point upgrade results in roughly a 10x price jump throughout many classic series, few (publicly) seem to care. Most often it is nothing but congratulations to the winner of this pop 1 Buffalo nickel, or Indian cent or Lincoln cent, etc. Even when the 26-S cent sold for $150,000 in 65RD when a 64RD was fetching around $15,000, I believe you failed to see a single concern raised on that purchase price publicly? Ditto for Buffalo nickel world record prices for common coins in uncommon grades (one point higher than the same coin worth 1/10 as much one point lower). And, other classic series as well. We agree the parallels are clear. And, perhaps "critics" will begin to address 10x jumps in price on any coins, classic or modern. In the meantime, collectors will continue to collect what they enjoy collecting and make their own decisions.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Wondercoin, you will see in the 1909 cent thread that I took the same exception to a 1 pt jump there. Going from 69 to 70 is even a tougher jump to swallow. Because now we are looking at effectively perfection under a 5X glass. I spent some time at a recent show looking at some MS70 ASE's and none were devoid of marks, spots, stains, scuffs, etc (ie no perfect coin). These were NGC coins however.
I still remember standing in line behind a modern specialist talking to HRH. He asked why a certain coin wasn't a 70. After about a minute of scrutiny with a loupe, David pointed out a lint mark to him.
One minute? The average TPG inspection of these is around 10 seconds. It's no wonder you can get a MS70 with a lint mark going undetected.
Show me 90% of the MS70 coins and I can find a problem with them. I won't say there isn't a coin I can't find a fault with within 5 minutes as there may be such a coin that requires 10 minutes of searching and 10X to 20X magnification. For now TPG's call "perfection" 10 seconds of flawlessness under 5X magnification. Maybe their should be a second label on the coin as to how long it takes to find a flaw and under what power: ex: MS70-2.3 min - 10X. Or how about MS70 - 12.6 min - 15X. I'd pay double for the 2nd coin.
A 1 pt difference in grades of MS69 and lower is entirely different as none of them claims to be perfection. Calling something MS70 is a whole 'nuther ball game. It needs to be significantly better than all the line MS69's out there. And you need to be able to pick it out from those liners nearly every time. If you can't, then I have problem with that definition of MS70. Plop that MS70 into a group of 99 other MS69 liners, and it better stand out as clearly superior such that a TPG grader identifies it the vast majority of the time.
FYI - MS70 silver eagles often stain, spot , etc. AFTER they are graded, which is why PCGS has only permitted the MS70 grade on 2006-2007 Burnished product thus far. The dozen or so previously graded MS70 Silver eagles (of earlier years) were graded many, many years ago (before PCGS stopped grading them). Many of them (most?) are now spotted and would not grade MS70 today. When they are returned to PCGS under grade guaranty, these coins will be taken off the market and owners compensated IMHO.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I don't think that is correct as the Satin Finish coins come from US Mint uncirculated sets wereas the business strikes come from rolls or bags. Clearly they are different and should be considered as such.
Mitch, I wish I could come to Long Beach this year, but daddy's got to stay home and make some money
First, I think the 09 example in the other thread does not correlate well with the 69/70 example. Practically everyone on the thread disagrees with this coin being in a 67 holder. Personally, I think the difference between 66 and 67 is far more obvious than a 69/70 difference whether you are looking at "liner" coins or allegedly solid for the grade 69's and 70's. I think further that "macro" was somewhat of an exaggeration.
The assumption is also being made that PCGS is 100% consistent when they give a 70. When a flaw is found on the coin after the fact, well "it must have turned in the holder."
As to classic collectors not bashing 1 point upgrades purely to squeeze money out of Registry chasers, I distinctly recall Stewart railing about a middle date Lincoln in 68 red with an asking price of around $10,000, when you can get a nice 67 for $150.
One of the reasons I don't make money in this business is because I would have looked at that 09 IHC in a 66 holder and thought "whew, man that was close." It would have never occurred to me that would catch PCGS (lets say on a bad day) when this coin could actually go up another point!
"Registry chasers", sounds a little like ambulance chasers. The PCGS Registry actually reaffirms that I am not alone in my excessive compulsive disorder to complete a series or two. I like that. Besides I am comfortable that any PCGS graded bullion coin will always bring a good return unless you are prone to panic. Well maybe just in the bullion coins as I can't really speak for the classics.
Yes, it does sound like most do disagree with the MS67RD grade on that Indian cent, but, that doesn't mean the coin won't fetch huge money when it (eventually) sells. The coin is worth around $1,000-$1,500 in 66RD and watch that MS67RD command upwards of "five figures" when it sells I believe. No grading service is 100% consistent when it grades 70's or classics like the 1909 cent. I have purchased 70's myself out of auction solely to return them to PCGS to take them off the market at my cost.
And, FYI - no bullion coins other than Silver Eagles "turm" in the holder (with horrible spotting). No problems with gold or platinum coins. But, the silver eagles spot, which is why PCGS took a roughly 7 year break from slabbing MS Silver Eagles in the 70 grade before returning to do so a couple months ago.
Anyway, as Griv pointed out, most modern 70's trade way under 5x or 10x price jumps between single grade points. For example, I mentioned recently that I had been actively buying the low mintage 2000 Library of Congress $10 MS70 Bi-metal Commems as the raw bid on the Grey sheet was $3,000 while PCGS-MS70 coins were trading between $3,300 - $3,600. This translated to a 10%-20% premium for the PCGS-70 grade above the cost of a raw coin in a box! Ditto for many other modern gold Commems in that series. Also, many Proof Platinum coins in 70 grade sell at tiny premiums for the 70 grade - some as little as 1.25 -1.5 the cost of a raw coin. Also, many gold eagles trade at tiny premiums for the 70 grade (10%-30% premium to the 69 grade).
Contrast that to the 700x differential between a MS69RD 2003 cent and a $73,500 asking price on the MS70. Again, that LOC example above is a 1.2x premium for the 70 grade. My simple point being 70's can't be lumped together in a broad statement like "why pay 20x more for the 70 grade" or the "single extra point". There are (IMHO) some very smart buys of 70's out there right now if you do your homework (and, obviously, a number of risky buys on others) .
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
This is a very interesting thread. I had the opportunity to compare several 2003 lincoln PCGS on ms68,69 with the MS70, the strike and the quality of the ms70 is far superior that the other grades. You dont need to be an expert to see the difference between the 70 and the 69 on this coin. I will be delusional if I think this will be the only coin grade ms70 by PCGS in my lifetime, however if the next coin quality is similar to this MS70 that will be fine. I really belief is going to be very difficult to get a coin of the same quality of this one(my opinion only of course). In terms of the price of the coin, this is what it will take to get the coin away from me. Lets say I dont need the money so this coin will be a keeper. Got to work today Keith
It's a few people's comments and attitudes on this very thread that really discourages me from posting on these boards anymore. No one and I mean no one has the right to comment on a coin until they have looked at it in person and under a loupe. When someone can bring to you (or PCGS) a 2003 MS70RD that is of equal or better quality, then and ONLY THEN should they comment on your coin and how it compares to a 69. For those of you who say that it is silly to ask $73K for this coin, who the hell are you to be the judge of that? A coin is always worth what someone will pay for it.
Also, it's amazing how so many people lack respect for the individuals on these boards that search modern rolls. 40-60 years down the road, the top pops that are being found today are going to be worth MOON MONEY. I don't give a damn that 10 billion pennies or nickels or quarters were minted that same year...the fact still remains that business strike 69's and 70's are few and far between.
Lastly, I commend you for not lashing out at people on this thread...it must be hard to bite your tongue!
Another sane post on this subject! 2 in a row! I agree that it is foolish to put down someone else's choice of collecting and I wish more people would encourage collectors instead of discouraging them. When I started collecting Eagles in 1999 I would buy them from the local dealer. Each time I went in to see if he'd found any for me he got more and more impatient with me until one day he told me to just go buy off of eBay. Can you imagine? He didn’t want my business because he didn’t like messing with the bullion coins. So I almost gave it up but then I checked out eBay and that was that. I bet he kicks himself every time he thinks of it now.
You're entirely right of course and I would add that people who think the just missed coins are necessarily common are going to be in for a huge surprise if they actually just check some of the modern pricing. Even though there are far fewer collectors of these than classics many of the "off grade" moderns have some pretty hefty price tags.
This is caused mostly by the low quality standards employed by the mint but is also indicative of the fact that many of these coins since 1964 have been saved in lower numbers than even the 19th century coinage.
An experienced numismatist who is used to handling and pricing pop 1/0 'rarities'.
>>
Yes. You're a very experienced and knowledgeable numismatist.
But, with all due respect, your knowledge of moderns is very limited. My knowledge of these markets is scant, at best, but it's much deeper than yours, I'd imagine.
Some may claim that a coin is a coin and a coin market is a coin market, but the disdain in which most of the market participants hold moderns does create an entirely different market. Few dealers stock the moderns or buy and sell any at a premium. They mock those who do. So the two halves of the US coin market are about as dissimilar as two "coin" markets can be.
Personally, I've "made", bought, &/or sold at least a dozen top pop 1/0's (including at least 2 70's) and would not have the stones to ask 73k knowing (the grade might have been a marketing ploy by the guys in Newport Beach AND knowing) you're at THEIR mercy as to pop increases. I'd view it as a hot potato at best.
The coin sold for around $14,500 plus the juice last year in a major auction (a TT sale which was brought to Long Beach and shown to all the players at the major coin show). I know the seller was very happy with the sale as was (I assume) the buyer. I believe the buyer even noted on a thread shortly following the conclusion of the auction that he was prepared to pay up to $20,000 hammer for the coin (please correct me if I am wrong)? Another thread had the seller possibly willing to take under $10,000 for the coin at one point (so the "hearsay" went). So, again, happy buyer, happy seller.
Taking buyer's words to heart (assuming I recall the post correctly) - that $20,000 plus the juice was his top bid if he had been pushed - my non-scientific analysis has the 03(p) Lincoln cent at $25,000 - $30,000 tops as a value a seller might be asking. Likewise, the entire country passed on bidding $15,000 hammer on the coin when it last appeared in a major auction, so an interested buyer might assert around $15,000 - $20,000 is top level at this point. Next year, if the coin stays pop 1, perhaps there is a good argument for a higher price level. Next year, if the coin is pop 2, perhaps there is a good argument for a lower price level. I've sold a few pop 1's before, and I am having a hard time understanding a level above $30,000 at this point even under the most favorable conditions set out above. And, I am also understanding a level of $15,000 - $20,000 from a buyer's perspective. I would not understand, say, $2,500 or $73,000 though at this point.
And, I apologize in advance if I recalled incorrectly the buyer's comment about $20,000 hammer being his max bid when the coin sold at auction.
Wondercoin
P.S. Nothing above is intended to suggest any "value" for the 03 cent - just trying to lay out the facts I thought I knew.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>A 1/0 is a 1/0 - doesn't matter what series it's in. >>
I'm not sure how true this is.
Even if it could be shown that there is a definitive relationship between price and pop/pop+ and it was consistent between series and eras, how do you factor in the fact that this is a 1/0 for all US coins. Not only are there none finer or equal but there can't be one finer until the grading system is changed.
<< <i> How many have you bought or sold? >>
My coins aren't graded so they don't appear in the pops. Suffice to say I had a thirty year head start on collecting moderns.
<< <i>For those of you who say that it is silly to ask $73K for this coin, who the hell are you to be the judge of that?
An experienced numismatist who is used to handling and pricing pop 1/0 'rarities'.
A coin is always worth what someone will pay for it.
No, it's not. >>
Actually yes it is. With all due respect nothing in this society is worth anything until someone pays for it. Then and only then can you price it. So if someone is willing to pay $73k for that coin....its worth $73k. Maybe not to you and maybe not to me. But to someone it might be. Is an iPhone worth $599?? Some people think so and some don't. Personally I wouldn't touch that phone for that price and even with the recent price decrease its tough to swallow. But there are nearly a million people who already have one of those phones who did think it was worth that.
Now if you are saying that this coin is not worth this much for an investment standpoint...I would caution anyone buying any coin for that reason period. Most coins are not investments and to treat them as such is a tricky business. Sure many coins continue to climb in price but do they always go up?
Perhaps nobody will buy it for that price for a few years to come but as Keith already mentioned that is the price it would take to get it from him. Personally I think its just a case of him testing the waters. No harm in that and if nobody bites he still has the coin.
Comments
Stewart
<< <i>Coin Fame - Seth, I believe that an adult who searches 20,000 Idaho quarters a year is worse than a man who masturbates 20,000 times a year.You must really be desperate for the money !
There are millions of I da ho quarters in gem and will always be thousands of gem Idaho quarters as long as you are alive. Is this your calling in life ? >>
Stewart,
I'm a bit baffled at your low blow shot at a coin hunter. Searching through business strikes is a hobby that reaches to the very core of coin collecting. Cents come to mind as the most searched coin in history, yet it has been minted by the Billions. You should be ashamed of yourself for such a comment! It doesn't speak well of your character.
Edited to say:
Have A Nice Day
<< <i>Seth: Lay it out a bit more.... 1. How many manhours spent searching 20,000 new state quarters? 2. Any costs associated with search (i.e. premiums for sealed cases, etc.)? 3. How many MS68 coins from search? Avg. asking price per coin? 4. So, what is the hourly rate for this work then? Wondercoin >>
1) Many hours & a lot of fun
2) There's quite a cost associated with searching. $500 face runs around $600 for most states, so you throw away $100 just to peek. Mint bags are even worse where $250 face is $320 + shipping.
3) We haven't found an MS68 Business Strike State Quarter in 2007 yet... We've made others, but it's been few and far between 68s and some low pop 67s.
4) Searching the 25c is more of a hobby than anything as they don't sell for much compared to costs. (Today) I think Doug said he makes about $10/hr one time. (And that he won't be quitting his day job to do it.) He might be worth more per hour than me if he does that well, so I won't be quitting my day job as a coin dealer either.
I think most serious collectors have found that they are cheaper to buy than to go find.
Lincoln Cents Basic Set, Proof (1950-Present)
Lincoln Cents Basic Set, Proof (1959-Present)
<< <i>Is it only done for the money ? >>
Isn't this why we go to work every day?????
Almost forgot,
Have a Nice Day
<< <i>
<< <i>Coin Fame - Seth, I believe that an adult who searches 20,000 Idaho quarters a year is worse than a man who masturbates 20,000 times a year.You must really be desperate for the money !
There are millions of I da ho quarters in gem and will always be thousands of gem Idaho quarters as long as you are alive. Is this your calling in life ? >>
Stewart,
I'm a bit baffled at your low blow shot at a coin hunter. Searching through business strikes is a hobby that reaches to the very core of coin collecting. Cents come to mind as the most searched coin in history, yet it has been minted by the Billions. <STRONG>You should be ashamed of yourself for such a comment!</STRONG> It doesn't speak well of your character.
Edited to say:
Have A Nice Day
Seth I just wanted to quote your reply to hammer that point home.
Stewart, Seth is Absolutely correct in his statement!! You are way out of line with that comment. The moment I read your post I also thought the comment speaks and shows your character very poorly. How many rolls and bags of coins have you searched in your life Stew??
Oh and Have A Great day!!
Check my ebay BIN or Make Offers!!
Who gives a rats arse?
Personally I agree that it is sorta pathetic to do so. What a waste of time.
Remarkable thread.
It really shows that the hobby really did pretty much die in 1965.
Real coin collecting isn't even recognized any more.
I, for one, am jealous of CoinFame. I've been too busy with searching other coins to spend much time on the quarters.
<< <i>"How many rolls and bags of coins have you searched in your life Stew??"
Who gives a rats arse?
Personally I agree that it is sorta pathetic to do so. What a waste of time. >>
WOW...is this really your thoughts?
How do you think gem coins are around from the past. Do you actually believe that no one took the time to find nice looking coins and then saved them? Give me a break!! It is thanks to people like Seth that nice gem coins actually survive, IMO. I also agree with cladking in that I would search many more coins given some more free time. Its called a hobby and fun for some of us. So I would like to remind everyone here: COLLECT WHAT YOU LIKE!! If you don't like moderns, don't save them and use them for coasters, idk! But in all reality bashing moderns is really getting quite tasteless IMO. I don't sit here and talk about all the crusty crap you guys collect do I?
As always, Have a nice day!
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<< <i>"How many rolls and bags of coins have you searched in your life Stew??"
Who gives a rats arse?
Personally I agree that it is sorta pathetic to do so. What a waste of time. >>
I really hope you were being ironic or sarcastic here and it didn't come through in text. If not for all those people searching rolls and bags, where would you get all of those variety coins you sell? Those gem 1960-D Small/Large Lincolns I sold you didn't fall out of a tree, I bought them from someone who had searched mint bags in the early 1960s.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
How many rolls and bags of coins have you searched in your life Stew?
I was only referring to Stew. It would be pathetic (for HIM) and a waste of HIS time. Why search when you can afford the best?
<< <i>I do know it's unique... >>
The coin's not but the holder is.
The more people who collect the more valuable coins get because there are more people after them. This is a good thing, duh! The modern bullion coins offer the first time in my lifetime that you can buy a coin that not only has a numismatic value but also a intrinsic metal value so it will always be worth what the metal is trading for even if no one wants to collect it. The other notion of all proofs being PR70 because of their special handling shows a basic lack of understanding as to what a PR70 is.
<< <i>I'm not sure why people who collect classic coins feel the need to bash modern coin collectors. >>
Because moderns are trash that should come with a warning label.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm not sure why people who collect classic coins feel the need to bash modern coin collectors. >>
Because moderns are trash that should come with a warning label.
Russ, NCNE >>
So apparantly there is no age limit to post in this forum.
I respect whatever someone chooses to collect in terms of coins or currency and think it's a good hobby and investment. I myself collect very little modern circulation coins because I don't have an interest in them but I'm sure that those that do have a lot of fun doing so. I do like the Sacs and I grudgingly will work on the President Series if only to drive me crazy for the next 12 or 13 years it will take to complete.
<< <i>I personally have zero problem with people collecting what they want. If I were collecting moderns, however, I don't believe I could swallow paying huge premiums for something that requires magnification to discern [ie: the difference between a 69 and a 70]. In my mind, paying large amounts of money for such small differences in quality is insane. Lest you think my opinion is limited to moderns, note that I often say the same thing about strike designations in classic coins. >>
I would probably have to agree with you on this point. This is coming from a 100% modern collector. I might have 5 coins in my collection that are from before 1960. While I do pay top dollar for some moderns I will not own many 70's. The one I own now was really cheap compared to the 69 price and as such was a deal.
However there are people that do like the 70's and that is perfectly fine by me. If that is what they like then I am glad they found something they like to collect. I remember the feeling when I finally found the series I loved and it was truly sensational. While I may never understand why people pay big money for a 70 over a 69, I will never try to rob someone of the joy they get from owning it.
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Wondercoin
As to the other point, there's a ton of value in collecting high end for the grade coins in any era.
Wondercoin
The Indian is a tuff coin in both grades whereas there are literly a ton of the 2003's in 69. Most haven't been graded yet...because who cares!?
This is what blows my mind in the modern "TOP POP" coins. Yes, there are not many moderns in certain grades (ultra high), but there a MILLIONS in the next grade down! That makes a coin NOT rare. Rare coins are hard to find in all grades.
<< <i>In general, the difference between 70 and 69 graded coins is macro >>
Mitch, at the FUN show in January, would you be willing to do a blind test of 20 69/70 coins and pick out the ones that are in PCGS 70 holder's?
<< <i>You CAN"T compare in any way the IH cent in 66 67 and a 2003 Lincoln in 69 70.
The Indian is a tuff coin in both grades whereas there are literly a ton of the 2003's in 69. Most haven't been graded yet...because who cares!?
This is what blows my mind in the modern "TOP POP" coins. Yes, there are not many moderns in certain grades (ultra high), but there a MILLIONS in the next grade down! That makes a coin NOT rare. Rare coins are hard to find in all grades. >>
You're wrong. You couldn't be more wrong.
Some moderns which are rare for their grade are pretty common one grade lower
but others are rare in any grade. There are many that are extremely tough one and
two grades lower.
While the 2003-P Lincoln is fairly common in MS-69 on what planet is this that there
are a ton of them?
Wondercoin
What might also be neat... also doing the same thing with 20 NGC, ANACS and ICG coins of each pile.
But isn't that exactly the point of many of the critics? That there are sufficient numbers of liner coins indistinguishable from those in the higher holder that command huge percentage premiums over those in the lower holder? That the number on the label far outweighs the distinguishable difference in quality?
Wondercoin
Wondercoin
I still remember standing in line behind a modern specialist talking to HRH. He asked why a certain coin wasn't a 70. After about a minute of scrutiny with a loupe, David pointed out a lint mark to him.
One minute? The average TPG inspection of these is around 10 seconds. It's no wonder you can get a MS70 with a lint mark going undetected.
Show me 90% of the MS70 coins and I can find a problem with them.
I won't say there isn't a coin I can't find a fault with within 5 minutes as there may be such a coin that requires 10 minutes of searching and 10X to 20X magnification. For now TPG's call "perfection" 10 seconds of flawlessness under 5X magnification. Maybe their should be a second label on the coin as to how long it takes to find a flaw and under what power: ex: MS70-2.3 min - 10X. Or how about MS70 - 12.6 min - 15X. I'd pay double for the 2nd coin.
A 1 pt difference in grades of MS69 and lower is entirely different as none of them claims to be perfection. Calling something MS70 is a whole 'nuther ball game. It needs to be significantly better than all the line MS69's out there. And you need to be able to pick it out from those liners nearly every time. If you can't, then I have problem with that definition of MS70. Plop that MS70 into a group of 99 other MS69 liners, and it better stand out as clearly superior such that a TPG grader identifies it the vast majority of the time.
roadrunner
FYI - MS70 silver eagles often stain, spot , etc. AFTER they are graded, which is why PCGS has only permitted the MS70 grade on 2006-2007 Burnished product thus far. The dozen or so previously graded MS70 Silver eagles (of earlier years) were graded many, many years ago (before PCGS stopped grading them). Many of them (most?) are now spotted and would not grade MS70 today. When they are returned to PCGS under grade guaranty, these coins will be taken off the market and owners compensated IMHO.
Wondercoin
the 2003 may be the only bs strike listed as a "70"....there are now others that have that "70" monicker attached to them.
it won't be long ....there'll be others.
First, I think the 09 example in the other thread does not correlate well with the 69/70 example. Practically everyone on the thread disagrees with this coin being in a 67 holder. Personally, I think the difference between 66 and 67 is far more obvious than a 69/70 difference whether you are looking at "liner" coins or allegedly solid for the grade 69's and 70's. I think further that "macro" was somewhat of an exaggeration.
The assumption is also being made that PCGS is 100% consistent when they give a 70. When a flaw is found on the coin after the fact, well "it must have turned in the holder."
As to classic collectors not bashing 1 point upgrades purely to squeeze money out of Registry chasers, I distinctly recall Stewart railing about a middle date Lincoln in 68 red with an asking price of around $10,000, when you can get a nice 67 for $150.
One of the reasons I don't make money in this business is because I would have looked at that 09 IHC in a 66 holder and thought "whew, man that was close." It would have never occurred to me that would catch PCGS (lets say on a bad day) when this coin could actually go up another point!
Yes, it does sound like most do disagree with the MS67RD grade on that Indian cent, but, that doesn't mean the coin won't fetch huge money when it (eventually) sells. The coin is worth around $1,000-$1,500 in 66RD and watch that MS67RD command upwards of "five figures" when it sells I believe. No grading service is 100% consistent when it grades 70's or classics like the 1909 cent. I have purchased 70's myself out of auction solely to return them to PCGS to take them off the market at my cost.
And, FYI - no bullion coins other than Silver Eagles "turm" in the holder (with horrible spotting). No problems with gold or platinum coins. But, the silver eagles spot, which is why PCGS took a roughly 7 year break from slabbing MS Silver Eagles in the 70 grade before returning to do so a couple months ago.
Anyway, as Griv pointed out, most modern 70's trade way under 5x or 10x price jumps between single grade points. For example, I mentioned recently that I had been actively buying the low mintage 2000 Library of Congress $10 MS70 Bi-metal Commems as the raw bid on the Grey sheet was $3,000 while PCGS-MS70 coins were trading between $3,300 - $3,600. This translated to a 10%-20% premium for the PCGS-70 grade above the cost of a raw coin in a box! Ditto for many other modern gold Commems in that series. Also, many Proof Platinum coins in 70 grade sell at tiny premiums for the 70 grade - some as little as 1.25 -1.5 the cost of a raw coin. Also, many gold eagles trade at tiny premiums for the 70 grade (10%-30% premium to the 69 grade).
Contrast that to the 700x differential between a MS69RD 2003 cent and a $73,500 asking price on the MS70. Again, that LOC example above is a 1.2x premium for the 70 grade. My simple point being 70's can't be lumped together in a broad statement like "why pay 20x more for the 70 grade" or the "single extra point". There are (IMHO) some very smart buys of 70's out there right now if you do your homework (and, obviously, a number of risky buys on others) .
Wondercoin
In terms of the price of the coin, this is what it will take to get the coin away from me. Lets say I dont need the money so this coin will be a keeper.
Got to work today
Keith
It's a few people's comments and attitudes on this very thread that really discourages me from posting on these boards anymore. No one and I mean no one has the right to comment on a coin until they have looked at it in person and under a loupe. When someone can bring to you (or PCGS) a 2003 MS70RD that is of equal or better quality, then and ONLY THEN should they comment on your coin and how it compares to a 69. For those of you who say that it is silly to ask $73K for this coin, who the hell are you to be the judge of that? A coin is always worth what someone will pay for it.
Also, it's amazing how so many people lack respect for the individuals on these boards that search modern rolls. 40-60 years down the road, the top pops that are being found today are going to be worth MOON MONEY. I don't give a damn that 10 billion pennies or nickels or quarters were minted that same year...the fact still remains that business strike 69's and 70's are few and far between.
Lastly, I commend you for not lashing out at people on this thread...it must be hard to bite your tongue!
You're entirely right of course and I would add that people who think the just
missed coins are necessarily common are going to be in for a huge surprise if
they actually just check some of the modern pricing. Even though there are far
fewer collectors of these than classics many of the "off grade" moderns have
some pretty hefty price tags.
This is caused mostly by the low quality standards employed by the mint but is
also indicative of the fact that many of these coins since 1964 have been saved
in lower numbers than even the 19th century coinage.
An experienced numismatist who is used to handling and pricing pop 1/0 'rarities'.
A coin is always worth what someone will pay for it.
No, it's not.
<< <i>
An experienced numismatist who is used to handling and pricing pop 1/0 'rarities'.
>>
Yes. You're a very experienced and knowledgeable numismatist.
But, with all due respect, your knowledge of moderns is very limited. My
knowledge of these markets is scant, at best, but it's much deeper than
yours, I'd imagine.
Some may claim that a coin is a coin and a coin market is a coin market,
but the disdain in which most of the market participants hold moderns does
create an entirely different market. Few dealers stock the moderns or buy
and sell any at a premium. They mock those who do. So the two halves of
the US coin market are about as dissimilar as two "coin" markets can be.
Taking buyer's words to heart (assuming I recall the post correctly) - that $20,000 plus the juice was his top bid if he had been pushed - my non-scientific analysis has the 03(p) Lincoln cent at $25,000 - $30,000 tops as a value a seller might be asking. Likewise, the entire country passed on bidding $15,000 hammer on the coin when it last appeared in a major auction, so an interested buyer might assert around $15,000 - $20,000 is top level at this point. Next year, if the coin stays pop 1, perhaps there is a good argument for a higher price level. Next year, if the coin is pop 2, perhaps there is a good argument for a lower price level. I've sold a few pop 1's before, and I am having a hard time understanding a level above $30,000 at this point even under the most favorable conditions set out above. And, I am also understanding a level of $15,000 - $20,000 from a buyer's perspective. I would not understand, say, $2,500 or $73,000 though at this point.
And, I apologize in advance if I recalled incorrectly the buyer's comment about $20,000 hammer being his max bid when the coin sold at auction.
Wondercoin
P.S. Nothing above is intended to suggest any "value" for the 03 cent - just trying to lay out the facts I thought I knew.
<< <i>A 1/0 is a 1/0 - doesn't matter what series it's in. >>
I'm not sure how true this is.
Even if it could be shown that there is a definitive relationship between price and
pop/pop+ and it was consistent between series and eras, how do you factor in the
fact that this is a 1/0 for all US coins. Not only are there none finer or equal but
there can't be one finer until the grading system is changed.
<< <i>
How many have you bought or sold?
My coins aren't graded so they don't appear in the pops. Suffice to say I had a thirty
year head start on collecting moderns.
<< <i>For those of you who say that it is silly to ask $73K for this coin, who the hell are you to be the judge of that?
An experienced numismatist who is used to handling and pricing pop 1/0 'rarities'.
A coin is always worth what someone will pay for it.
No, it's not. >>
Actually yes it is. With all due respect nothing in this society is worth anything until someone pays for it. Then and only then can you price it. So if someone is willing to pay $73k for that coin....its worth $73k. Maybe not to you and maybe not to me. But to someone it might be. Is an iPhone worth $599?? Some people think so and some don't. Personally I wouldn't touch that phone for that price and even with the recent price decrease its tough to swallow. But there are nearly a million people who already have one of those phones who did think it was worth that.
Now if you are saying that this coin is not worth this much for an investment standpoint...I would caution anyone buying any coin for that reason period. Most coins are not investments and to treat them as such is a tricky business. Sure many coins continue to climb in price but do they always go up?
Perhaps nobody will buy it for that price for a few years to come but as Keith already mentioned that is the price it would take to get it from him. Personally I think its just a case of him testing the waters. No harm in that and if nobody bites he still has the coin.
Zach
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100!!
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