Obviously, the current owner is testing the market. Unfortunately for him, the market is saying "NO". Everyone knows that PCGS WILL make another 2003 Lincoln cent in MS70 in the future. The question really is WHEN in the future. If it will be 5 years from now, someone WILL pay big bucks for this coin. If it is 5 months from now, the coin will be worth a few hundred dollars at best. Take your guess and pay your money. Good luck. Steve
<< <i>Obviously, the current owner is testing the market. Unfortunately for him, the market is saying "NO". Everyone knows that PCGS WILL make another 2003 Lincoln cent in MS70 in the future. The question really is WHEN in the future. If it will be 5 years from now, someone WILL pay big bucks for this coin. If it is 5 months from now, the coin will be worth a few hundred dollars at best. Take your guess and pay your money. Good luck. Steve >>
I think they should charge people more to list things at high prices and charge them even more if it doesn't sell. Why are all of these people wasting our time by putting listings up. Guess it makes eBay money in the short term, in the long term they just lose users.
My my my....where do I start. P. T. Barnum said it best and the guy who said "a fool and his money are soon separated".
Now JHF had and sold a nice RARE dime for a cool 1.85M. Wonder why that coin is worth so much and the 2003-P is NOT! I know because there are only 24 of them not 24 million or billion and NOT made yesterday.
Why would anyone pay over a couple hundred for a MS70 modern when you can drop down to a MS69 and pay what $25?! and who CARES!!!!!!!!!!! It's a frigin 2003 coin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You could crack out the 69's and the 70 and put them on a table and nobody could pick out the 70 again.
But AGAIN who CARES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Move the decimal point over 4 to the left......I bid $7.35!
First of all, I want to say thanks for the images. What a beautiful strike on that coin!!
If I had the money, I'd buy it-- period.
For someone, $75,000 or even $100,000 might be in their ballpark.
Unfortunately for me, it is not.
I am one of the few collectors who beleives that there is a significant difference between 69s and 70s... I even had a date run of proof 70 silver washingtons (1960-1964) in my registry set (which I later sold).
I can only wish that I had the money to buy that beauty.
<< <i>I can only wish that I had the money to buy that beauty.
cheers, Alan Mendelson
Alan, there's more that you can do than just wish. You can make another MS70 2003 yourself.
Seriously, there has to be another one out there just like the first one.
RegistryNut >>
It seems absolutely nuts to me that people aren't out there looking. Most people think it's insane that such pieces bring such prices but it's far more insane that they bring such prices and so few are looking.
The real question is who are the biggest fools? ...Those getting in for a song or those who are so afraid of moderns that they give away the rarities. Half o these people will be climbing ocer each other to pay big bucks if these become mainstream.
TextThe real question is who are the biggest fools? ...Those getting in for a song or those who are so afraid of moderns that they give away the rarities. Half o these people will be climbing ocer each other to pay big bucks if these become mainstream.
This is one true COIN collector that won't be climbing over anybody for any modern crap. The only reason I collect the Roosies is because they ARE part of a complete dime set. But $25 for a clad coin is about my limit.
MAINSTREAM.....................modern crap will never be mainstream!
The only thing worse than modern crap is modern crap bullion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<< <i>TextThe real question is who are the biggest fools? ...Those getting in for a song or those who are so afraid of moderns that they give away the rarities.
MAINSTREAM.....................modern crap will never be mainstream!
!!!!!!!!!! >>
DOH! They already are. In 100 years that modern crap won't be and those of us saving the finest will be the new Eliasbergs. The same classics will still be floating around like they alwats have just with new owners.
MAINSTREAM.....................modern crap will never be mainstream!
The only thing worse than modern crap is modern crap bullion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >>
That's why I said half. A lot of people simply don't collect anything that is of the modern type. Perhaps they collect only silver coins that circulated. There are no such moderns. Perhaps they don't collect anything after 1872, or 1950 or 1965. Others might refuse to collect debased coins so cents to '82 and nickels are the only possibilities.
No one has to collect anything or value anything in any certain way. If I value an 1804 dollar at fifty dollars though it's pretty unlikely I'll ever own one.
But make no mistake about it. ANY crap can become truly mainstream. If silver art bars can get half the hobby going nuts then anything can; even modern crap.
No!!! Please don't anyone start looking at moderns to invest or to flip. Mar- kets are damaged by investors and I like by my moderns from the greatest fools of all; the bashers.
It just TOTALLY amazes me how anyone can compare coins made now and coins made in the late 1700's and early 1800's. There is NO comparison at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This modern stuff is made by the billions!!!!! IT WILL NEVER BE RARE...............NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And collecting Proof70 bullion coins. THEY SHOULD ALL BE PF70. THEY ARE ALL DOUBLE STRUCK.....NOW!!!! and handled with gloves. And they are not even coins!!!!!!
There are not ANY rare or even scarce coins minted after the 1920's. Think about it! I know in dimes the last tuff date is the 1928-D, but it is not rare or even scarce.
There are fabulous modern coins today, just as there were 100 years ago. My 1976 NO S Presentation piece (pattern) Dollar is Unique, just as in 1916 the Mint struck a Unique SLQ pattern (and possibly a Walker as well?) The Cheerios Dollars are 50x rarer than 1909-svdb cents - just the plain fact. For that matter even the 2004(w) $50 Platinum Proof (front cover of this month's PCGS magazine)is 50x rarer as well. The 1969 DDO Cent in top grade is a MONSTER COIN - right up there with most of the top classic coins (as is the 1974 Aluminum cent if and when it ever becomes legal to own) and on and on and on (some of the mules are incredible coins like the 1999 Lincoln cent/Roosie Dime that has already sold at auction for around $150,000. Rest assured, there will be a few crown jewels struck from the US Mint from the past 50 years - coins that will likely, one day, achieve the million dollar level just as coins from the 100 year period earlier have reached that mark. It won't happen overnight and most of us might not be around to see it, but the next generation surely will (IMHO).
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
There aren't any rare regular issue coins but so what? This just means the coins are inexpensive and will remain inexpensive. collectors can assemble important, historic, and COMPLETE collections for relatively little outlay.
You might believe all these coins minted in the billions are common but you're very wrong. People quit saving new coins in 1965 and coins don't save themselves now days. This means that in many cases regular issues in nice attractive collectible condition can be surprisingly tough. They don't often cost much now but that's because there are about ten bashers for each collector. Wait until there are two collectors for each basher; prices will be significantly higher for many of these.
And if you like rarity then there are dozens of modern varieties that EVERYONE forgot to save. Some of these are even common but you can't find thenm in unc because people were too busy collecting old coins to even look at the new ones. Or you can go after the true rarities like WonderCoin lists that are rare in any grade. In the not distant future the government will be melting the circulating coinage and all those coins that are condition rarities will suddenly be tough in any condition because most of these STILL aren't being saved or it's already far too late to save them.
Word was 3 graded MS70, but only this one got by the finalizer. Given the number graded MS69, I suspect many more are just as nice as this one, just do not have the right number on the label.
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
There is no perfect MS coin. They may be close, but just because they look good under 5X after a 10 second look, does not make them perfect. If the standard were changed to using 15x magnification and a 3 to 5 minute look.....then maybe I'd buy the "perfect" scenario."
If I'm gonna pay $73,000 it needs to be perfect after a 10 minute look under any magnification I desire to use.
<< <i>There is no perfect MS coin. They may be close, but just because they look good under 5X after a 10 second look, does not make them perfect. If the standard were changed to using 15x magnification and a 3 to 5 minute look.....then maybe I'd buy the "perfect" scenario."
If I'm gonna pay $73,000 it needs to be perfect after a 10 minute look under any magnification I desire to use.
roadrunner >>
RR. I would bet before they took the risk of putting that coin in an ms70 holder, they probably have every single grader and manager or owner take a look at that coin. After all, it could get costly for PCGS if it develops a spot while in the holder.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
RR. I would bet before they took the risk of putting that coin in an ms70 holder, they probably have every single grader and manager or owner take a look at that coin. After all, it could get costly for PCGS if it develops a spot while in the holder. >>
<< <i>There is no perfect MS coin. They may be close, but just because they look good under 5X after a 10 second look, does not make them perfect. If the standard were changed to using 15x magnification and a 3 to 5 minute look.....then maybe I'd buy the "perfect" scenario."
If I'm gonna pay $73,000 it needs to be perfect after a 10 minute look under any magnification I desire to use.
roadrunner >>
There's no such thing as a perfect coin. People just have to get used to thinking of 70 as a grade range if the mint is going to make coins better than 69.
I'd be willing to bet they gave the MS70 cent no more consideration than say a MS68 barber quarter. Instead of 5-10 seconds, maybe they gave it 15-30 seconds or even a minute. I just don't think they spent the better part of an hour discussing this around the office. The time to grade a MS70 coin by an expert TPG grader should not be that much different than if he is grading a MS69 coin. The whole crux of being a TPG is making a grading decision almost instantaneously. While anyone can grade decently if given unlimited time and a little training, try doing it in 5 seconds per coin, and do that 1000 times each day.
If anything, a brief discussion probably included, "yup it's finally time to make one and this is worthy enough. Ship it. It will bring back thousands of more Lincs in return."
I guess that term went down the toilet when describing The "infamous 2003 Lincoln cent
Mr.Wondercoin - In your post you describe modern rareties such as a Pattern 1916 SLQ,1969 DDO and some modern mules in high grade. Since when in the creation of coins does a 2003 Lincoln cent fit into this category as "Rare".Its common knowledge the YOU consigned the coin to Teletrade and benefitted from the sale of this coin.Even you know this coin is "toilet trash",a bad investment and hopefully one day you will tell the public.
It seems to me that since the 2003 Lincoln cent is the ONLY regular issue Lincoln certified as MS70 by PCGS that more than a minute of time went into the decision. I'd bet that everyone from Ron to David was involved in the final decision. Apparently, in the months that followed that decision no other Lincoln has yet been certified as MS70. So to think that this was just a random situation is being very niaeve (sp?) IMHO. I don't think this coin is a good investment at $73k, but at the same time I think the coin is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. It is obviously a very well struck Lincoln cent. I don't need such a coin in my collection, because my 2003 cent looks real nice in my Capital holder and it came from a 2003 mint set. Steve
I guess that term went down the toilet when describing The "infamous 2003 Lincoln cent
Mr.Wondercoin - In your post you describe modern rareties such as a Pattern 1916 SLQ,1969 DDO and some modern mules in high grade. Since when in the creation of coins does a 2003 Lincoln cent fit into this category as "Rare".Its common knowledge the YOU consigned the coin to Teletrade and benefitted from the sale of this coin.Even you know this coin is "toilet trash",a bad investment and hopefully one day you will tell the public.
Stewart >>
It's truly remarkable that a coin from 1919 can survive to the current day in superb unc and even better condition. Even though it's a common date set aside by millions with large numbers surviving to this day, it's not often seen in extremely high grade.
There are millions of collectors who seek Lincolns though it's true that most ignore those made after 1958 or 1964. Incredibly there are coins made after these dates that are as scarce as the older coins or as scarce in high grade.
There are cents like the '72-D that are extremely elusive in superb gem or the '68-P which is turning into a scarcity because so many are growing car- bon spots. There are the '84 issues which are tough to find just with nice pleasing surfaces, never mind being clean of marking. There are the late '80's Denver mints which aren't especially are in high grade but are simply spectacular proof likes.
Then there's the 2003. It's the only US regular issue coin graded MS-70.
I am not sure just how convincing I (or anyone else) can be to tell someone they made a "bad investment" when they paid $15,000 plus the juice at public auction for a coin and they are asking "$73,500" a year later (and if I recall a thread, claim they have already turned down $25,000). Not to mention, it is not my business.
But, what I can say is this - going back a year to 2002, I handled dozens and dozens of PCGS-MS69RD Lincoln cents from Philly (and sold many to board members when I had them). There were a handful of "perfect" coins IMHO. In fact, I posted a comment on a thread back then that I believed we would see our very first MS70RD Lincoln cent coming out of the 2002 dated Lincolns. It didn't happen until this 2003 cent was graded a couple years later. But, I do believe there are cents from 2002-2003 (especially those 2 years) that would comfortably fit into PCGS-MS70RD holders. The only question in my mind is when (and if) they will be slabbed.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
The concept that there are billions of examples to find more 70s is misguided. Odds are if there is a 70 found, it came from a mint set. If it were possible to search all the rest of the "billions" intended for circulation, I don't believe you would find a 70. With mint set coins, you will find significant costs involved in finding so called "common" moderns. I would cherish the day I find another 2005 P Sacagawea PCGS MS70 Satin Finish (Pop 3) or a 2003 Lincoln 70 for the first time. Anyone that thinks it's easy, please go make 10 for me at "easy" price and I'll buy them all.
Some Moderns are easy to come by and priced low to collect for the fun of it without worrying about the cost of your hobby, however that doesn't allow for all Moderns to be lumped in the same category.
<< <i>The concept that there are billions of examples to find more 70s is misguided. Odds are if there is a 70 found, it came from a mint set. If it were possible to search all the rest of the "billions" intended for circulation, I don't believe you would find a 70. With mint set coins, you will find significant costs involved in finding so called "common" moderns. I would cherish the day I find another 2005 P Sacagawea PCGS MS70 Satin Finish (Pop 3) or a 2003 Lincoln 70 for the first time. Anyone that thinks it's easy, please go make 10 for me at "easy" price and I'll buy them all.
Some Moderns are easy to come by and priced low to collect for the fun of it without worrying about the cost of your hobby, however that doesn't allow for all Moderns to be lumped in the same category. >>
Another thing that many bashers are overlooking is that even if it were true that only 20% of the sets have been checked and the probability of finding a few more is quite high, this presupposes that these sets actually get checked before thet are lost. The attrition on mint sets is usually close to 25% in the first year now days and can be as high as 5% annually after that. Until these sets are sold by the original purchaser it's about the same as that they don't exist. Some of these won't be sold for decades and they will be exposed to the customary dangers until then.
Look at the 1968 cent. All of the ones in mint sets now have carbon spots. Where are you going to find spectacular gems now?
We don't know what will happen to the 2003 sets in the future.
<< <i>I think it first sold for near 15k on Teletrade (didn't it?). >>
RBinTEX,
You are correct, it sold on teletrade for $15,120. It is the same 2003P PCGS MS-70 RD listed on a recent mailer that they sent me a couple of months ago, of which I still have.
Young Numismatist ............................ and growing!
cladking- I completely understand what you are saying about finding the modern clad coins in ultra high grades. I agree and there are many reasons for this. One is that nobody has been saving them back because until the registry came along nobody cared about ultra high grade modern coins. And many or most still don't. There are just a few deep pocket guys in the registry to drive these coins to what I call stupid money.
I guess what I have always been trying to say is that you can take ANY modern coin that cost (not worth) stupid money and you can buy that coin in 65, which is GEM, for next to nothing. That extra point for the 2003 in 70 is very very very expensive!
Modern coins are not rare, but a lot of them are very hard to find in ultra high grades because they were not saved and taken care of.
Nobody and I mean nobody cared about the coins minted in the 60's or 70's or 80's or even 90's. Now those coins are hard to find in high grades.
I had to settle for a 63 on my 69-P because I could not find a cheap one on ebay. Someone had a few here on the boards, but wanted 200 or so. I just could not do it. I kept thinking what that 200 could buy in a seated or barber dime. Finally a guy felt sorry for me and gave me the MS63. So I lost 3 points! Who cares!
<< <i>cladking- I completely understand what you are saying about finding the modern clad coins in ultra high grades. I agree and there are many reasons for this. One is that nobody has been saving them back because until the registry came along nobody cared about ultra high grade modern coins. And many or most still don't. There are just a few deep pocket guys in the registry to drive these coins to what I call stupid money.
I guess what I have always been trying to say is that you can take ANY modern coin that cost (not worth) stupid money and you can buy that coin in 65, which is GEM, for next to nothing. That extra point for the 2003 in 70 is very very very expensive!
Modern coins are not rare, but a lot of them are very hard to find in ultra high grades because they were not saved and taken care of.
Nobody and I mean nobody cared about the coins minted in the 60's or 70's or 80's or even 90's. Now those coins are hard to find in high grades.
I had to settle for a 63 on my 69-P because I could not find a cheap one on ebay. Someone had a few here on the boards, but wanted 200 or so. I just could not do it. I kept thinking what that 200 could buy in a seated or barber dime. Finally a guy felt sorry for me and gave me the MS63. So I lost 3 points! Who cares!
Everybody should collect what he or she likes!
JMHO >>
The thing is that you can say the same thing about almost any coin; in low grade most are generally available except for a few key dates. Regular issue moderns range from distressingly common to common enough in circulated condition.
Collectors have always sought rarity and completeness. If you set your sights too low many of the moderns are going to simply be no fun to collect. This isn't to say you won't have fun assemblinmg a F/ VF dime collection from circulation. You can. But you have to seek the best coins and learn something about them or it's more like a chore than a pastime or hobby. If you're really looking at coins you're collecting and learning then almost any of them can be a hoot.
Seeking rarity in and collecting moderns has been going on since before the registries existed. To find rarity in moderns you have to look past the mundane and there are mountains of the mundane. While things like unc clad quarters are not extremely com- mon they are certainly mountainous compared to the number of unc seated liberty coins. (about a 15' mountain) This leaves collectors looking for varieties, special issues and higher grades. Some of these rarities really don't even need to be unc to be high grade. Indeed, there are some that won't even exist in unc. Even among those which need to be high grade to be rare, there are some which are not common until you get a few grades lower. Nice choice specimens for many coins are tough, As you say these are generally pretty cheap, and I agree, that they are a comparatively good deal in ma- ny cases. If you twisted my arm I might even agree that the pop-tops can be bad deals sometimes but these are the going prices. I can't agree that people are wrong to pay them, and if history holds, some of these will have the strongest advances in the future.
Is the 2003 a good deal. I can't pretend to know. I do know it's unique and will never be common. WonderCoin said that the '02 and '03 coins come real nice but some of the late '80's Denver mints come spectacular as well. One (or a few) of these grading MS-70 in the future shouldn't be ruled out. Other dates and denominations are quite unlikely but there are a few spectaclar dimes from the late '70's that should be shoe-ins for 69.
Whatever the future holds, there are a lot of people having fun collecting these coins. Personally they seem dramatically underappreciated to me. It seems nearly incompre- hensible that thirty and forty year old coins that were scarce when they were made be- cause of high grade and are far scarcer now can sell for little or no premium. (if you can find them). One thing seems sure; people are no more likely to quit collecting moderns than they are to quit collecting classics. There will be a market for the 2003.
I think modern coins will continue to draw interest from younger and/or new collectors as time goes on. We're all getting older and so are these coins. Top-grade examples of conditionally scarce dates will continue to bring seemingly amazing prices to outsiders (classic collectors who shun moderns.)
Reasons for the "high" prices may be the expenses of time and money (and aggravation) in getting PCGS to agree and encapsulate the coins in top-grade. In other words, why bother with the expense of getting a legitimate numismatic item (i.e. 1969-P clad quarter in PCGS MS-66) finally slabbed if the interested collectors aren't willing to pay a worthwhile price to attain the scarce item?
When I reply to a modern thread, it is usually in reference to justifying an economically profitable price for "pocket change" i.e., the example of the 1969 PCGS MS-66 clad quarter I referred to in my previous post. I (in no way) do not support the 2003-P Lincoln Cent in PCGS MS-70 priced in the high five figures. I'm more or less am justifying prices of tough high grade clad coins in terms of hundreds of dollars, sometimes $1000/+ ( not $70,000/+)
Personally, I like clad quarters (1965-98) and believe some dates are due for future appreciation in PCGS MS-66 and better grades as new collectors tackle the series. It will happen in time.
The demand for the supergrades of 69/70 on moderns did not exist until PCGS developed the REG sets. And like the FED they control the supply. Collectors did not wake up one day and all decide we want supergrades. Dealers (and TPG's) made this decision for them. The rest is history.
<< <i>The demand for the supergrades of 69/70 on moderns did not exist until PCGS developed the REG sets. And like the FED they control the supply. Collectors did not wake up one day and all decide we want supergrades. Dealers (and TPG's) made this decision for them. The rest is history.
roadrunner >>
This is untrue. There were hundreds of collectors for these long before the services arose.
Of course people have to get the 69/70 idea out of their heads since most of the circulation issues simply don't exist in such grades. Many of these are quite scarce even in MS-65.
<< <i>The demand for the supergrades of 69/70 on moderns did not exist until PCGS developed the REG sets. And like the FED they control the supply. Collectors did not wake up one day and all decide we want supergrades. Dealers (and TPG's) made this decision for them. The rest is history. roadrunner >>
This is untrue. There were hundreds of collectors for these long before the services arose. Of course people have to get the 69/70 idea out of their heads since most of the circulation issues simply don't exist in such grades. Many of these are quite scarce even in MS-65. >>
Very realistic point of view!. I personally search 10's of thousands of business strikes every year. (Just searching Idaho 25c is 20,000+ coins for us.) once they all get circulated, finding 20,000 MS Idahos will be tough down the road. The top grades aren't anywhere near as easy as many people assume they are!
MS67PLUS
Posts: 686
Comments
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>Obviously, the current owner is testing the market. Unfortunately for him, the market is saying "NO". Everyone knows that PCGS WILL make another 2003 Lincoln cent in MS70 in the future. The question really is WHEN in the future. If it will be 5 years from now, someone WILL pay big bucks for this coin. If it is 5 months from now, the coin will be worth a few hundred dollars at best. Take your guess and pay your money. Good luck. Steve
Are you sure the market is saying NO
Keith
<< <i>If it is 5 months from now, the coin will be worth a few hundred dollars at best. >>
You think a pop 2/0 MS70 Lincoln would only be worth "a few hundred dollars"?
Russ, NCNE
You're wrong
-David
As far as the market saying no, there has been 1 offer made on the coin of which only the owner knows how much that was.
As of 8/21/2007 - 18 Offers!
Looks like the Market is not saying No but simply saying "Would ya take xx?"
The name is LEE!
Sorta the other extreme of "a few hundred for a pop 2/0 MS70 (NON-SF Lincoln)"
Keith,
We know that if YOU are "the market" then the "no" is nowhere near carved in stone.
p.s. Enjoying the 69-S?
My my my....where do I start. P. T. Barnum said it best and the guy who said "a fool and his money are soon separated".
Now JHF had and sold a nice RARE dime for a cool 1.85M. Wonder why that coin is worth so much and the 2003-P is NOT! I know because there are only 24 of them not 24 million or billion and NOT made yesterday.
Why would anyone pay over a couple hundred for a MS70 modern when you can drop down to a MS69 and pay what $25?! and who CARES!!!!!!!!!!! It's a frigin 2003 coin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You could crack out the 69's and the 70 and put them on a table and nobody could pick out the 70 again.
But AGAIN who CARES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Move the decimal point over 4 to the left......I bid $7.35!
<< <i>"Are you sure the market is saying NO"
Keith,
We know that if YOU are "the market" then the "no" is nowhere near carved in stone.
p.s. Enjoying the 69-S?
Roger, I hope one day I can see your mini-hoard of Moderncrap copper
Keith
If I had the money, I'd buy it-- period.
For someone, $75,000 or even $100,000 might be in their ballpark.
Unfortunately for me, it is not.
I am one of the few collectors who beleives that there is a significant difference between 69s and 70s... I even had a date run of proof 70 silver washingtons (1960-1964) in my registry set (which I later sold).
I can only wish that I had the money to buy that beauty.
cheers, Alan Mendelson
BestDealsTVshow.com
www.AlanBestBuys.com
www.VegasBestBuys.com
<< <i>Why would anyone pay over a couple hundred for a MS70 modern when you can drop down to a MS69 and pay what $25?! >>
Perhaps because collectors are free to spend their own money as they please?
Russ, NCNE
$ 500.00 ...But it automatically rejected my offer.
Its a common coin and another ms70 will surface, especially if this get any press for the ridiculously high eBay pricing.
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
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I can only wish that I had the money to buy that beauty.
cheers, Alan Mendelson
Alan, there's more that you can do than just wish. You can make another MS70 2003 yourself.
Seriously, there has to be another one out there just like the first one.
RegistryNut
<< <i>I can only wish that I had the money to buy that beauty.
cheers, Alan Mendelson
Alan, there's more that you can do than just wish. You can make another MS70 2003 yourself.
Seriously, there has to be another one out there just like the first one.
RegistryNut
It seems absolutely nuts to me that people aren't out there looking. Most people
think it's insane that such pieces bring such prices but it's far more insane that they
bring such prices and so few are looking.
The real question is who are the biggest fools? ...Those getting in for a song or those
who are so afraid of moderns that they give away the rarities. Half o these people will
be climbing ocer each other to pay big bucks if these become mainstream.
who are so afraid of moderns that they give away the rarities. Half o these people will
be climbing ocer each other to pay big bucks if these become mainstream.
This is one true COIN collector that won't be climbing over anybody for any modern crap. The only reason I collect the Roosies is because they ARE part of a complete dime set. But $25 for a clad coin is about my limit.
MAINSTREAM.....................modern crap will never be mainstream!
The only thing worse than modern crap is modern crap bullion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There are probably many folks who can tell the difference between an MS69 and MS70 coin. I don't happen to be one of those.
-------------
etexmike
<< <i>TextThe real question is who are the biggest fools? ...Those getting in for a song or those
who are so afraid of moderns that they give away the rarities.
MAINSTREAM.....................modern crap will never be mainstream!
!!!!!!!!!! >>
DOH! They already are. In 100 years that modern crap won't be and those of us saving the finest will be the new Eliasbergs. The same classics will still be floating around like they alwats have just with new owners.
<< <i>
MAINSTREAM.....................modern crap will never be mainstream!
The only thing worse than modern crap is modern crap bullion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >>
That's why I said half. A lot of people simply don't collect anything that is
of the modern type. Perhaps they collect only silver coins that circulated.
There are no such moderns. Perhaps they don't collect anything after 1872,
or 1950 or 1965. Others might refuse to collect debased coins so cents to
'82 and nickels are the only possibilities.
No one has to collect anything or value anything in any certain way. If I
value an 1804 dollar at fifty dollars though it's pretty unlikely I'll ever own
one.
But make no mistake about it. ANY crap can become truly mainstream. If
silver art bars can get half the hobby going nuts then anything can; even
modern crap.
No!!! Please don't anyone start looking at moderns to invest or to flip. Mar-
kets are damaged by investors and I like by my moderns from the greatest
fools of all; the bashers.
It just TOTALLY amazes me how anyone can compare coins made now and coins made in the late 1700's and early 1800's. There is NO comparison at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This modern stuff is made by the billions!!!!! IT WILL NEVER BE RARE...............NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And collecting Proof70 bullion coins. THEY SHOULD ALL BE PF70. THEY ARE ALL DOUBLE STRUCK.....NOW!!!! and handled with gloves. And they are not even coins!!!!!!
There are not ANY rare or even scarce coins minted after the 1920's. Think about it! I know in dimes the last tuff date is the 1928-D, but it is not rare or even scarce.
Wondercoin
and will remain inexpensive. collectors can assemble important, historic, and COMPLETE collections
for relatively little outlay.
You might believe all these coins minted in the billions are common but you're very wrong. People
quit saving new coins in 1965 and coins don't save themselves now days. This means that in many
cases regular issues in nice attractive collectible condition can be surprisingly tough. They don't often
cost much now but that's because there are about ten bashers for each collector. Wait until there are
two collectors for each basher; prices will be significantly higher for many of these.
And if you like rarity then there are dozens of modern varieties that EVERYONE forgot to save. Some
of these are even common but you can't find thenm in unc because people were too busy collecting old
coins to even look at the new ones. Or you can go after the true rarities like WonderCoin lists that are
rare in any grade. In the not distant future the government will be melting the circulating coinage and
all those coins that are condition rarities will suddenly be tough in any condition because most of these
STILL aren't being saved or it's already far too late to save them.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
If I'm gonna pay $73,000 it needs to be perfect after a 10 minute look under any magnification I desire to use.
roadrunner
<< <i>There is no perfect MS coin. They may be close, but just because they look good under 5X after a 10 second look, does not make them perfect. If the standard were changed to using 15x magnification and a 3 to 5 minute look.....then maybe I'd buy the "perfect" scenario."
If I'm gonna pay $73,000 it needs to be perfect after a 10 minute look under any magnification I desire to use.
roadrunner >>
RR. I would bet before they took the risk of putting that coin in an ms70 holder, they probably have every single grader and manager or owner take a look at that coin. After all, it could get costly for PCGS if it develops a spot while in the holder.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>
RR. I would bet before they took the risk of putting that coin in an ms70 holder, they probably have every single grader and manager or owner take a look at that coin. After all, it could get costly for PCGS if it develops a spot while in the holder. >>
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
(Sorta seemed fitting for BOTH threads)
<< <i>There is no perfect MS coin. They may be close, but just because they look good under 5X after a 10 second look, does not make them perfect. If the standard were changed to using 15x magnification and a 3 to 5 minute look.....then maybe I'd buy the "perfect" scenario."
If I'm gonna pay $73,000 it needs to be perfect after a 10 minute look under any magnification I desire to use.
roadrunner >>
There's no such thing as a perfect coin. People just have to get used to thinking of 70 as a grade range if the mint is going to make coins better than 69.
The time to grade a MS70 coin by an expert TPG grader should not be that much different than if he is grading a MS69 coin. The whole crux of being a TPG is making a grading decision almost instantaneously. While anyone can grade decently if given unlimited time and a little training, try doing it in 5 seconds per coin, and do that 1000 times each day.
If anything, a brief discussion probably included, "yup it's finally time to make one and this is worthy enough. Ship it. It will bring back thousands of more Lincs in return."
roadrunner
I guess that term went down the toilet when describing
The "infamous 2003 Lincoln cent
Mr.Wondercoin - In your post you describe modern rareties such as a Pattern 1916 SLQ,1969 DDO and some modern mules in high grade.
Since when in the creation of coins does a 2003 Lincoln cent fit into this category as "Rare".Its common knowledge the YOU consigned the coin to Teletrade and benefitted from the sale of this coin.Even you know this coin is "toilet trash",a bad investment and hopefully one day you will tell the public.
Stewart
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>"The Holy Grail Of Lincoln Cents"
I guess that term went down the toilet when describing
The "infamous 2003 Lincoln cent
Mr.Wondercoin - In your post you describe modern rareties such as a Pattern 1916 SLQ,1969 DDO and some modern mules in high grade.
Since when in the creation of coins does a 2003 Lincoln cent fit into this category as "Rare".Its common knowledge the YOU consigned the coin to Teletrade and benefitted from the sale of this coin.Even you know this coin is "toilet trash",a bad investment and hopefully one day you will tell the public.
Stewart >>
It's truly remarkable that a coin from 1919 can survive to the current day
in superb unc and even better condition. Even though it's a common date
set aside by millions with large numbers surviving to this day, it's not often
seen in extremely high grade.
There are millions of collectors who seek Lincolns though it's true that most
ignore those made after 1958 or 1964. Incredibly there are coins made after
these dates that are as scarce as the older coins or as scarce in high grade.
There are cents like the '72-D that are extremely elusive in superb gem or
the '68-P which is turning into a scarcity because so many are growing car-
bon spots. There are the '84 issues which are tough to find just with nice
pleasing surfaces, never mind being clean of marking. There are the late
'80's Denver mints which aren't especially are in high grade but are simply
spectacular proof likes.
Then there's the 2003. It's the only US regular issue coin graded MS-70.
But, what I can say is this - going back a year to 2002, I handled dozens and dozens of PCGS-MS69RD Lincoln cents from Philly (and sold many to board members when I had them). There were a handful of "perfect" coins IMHO. In fact, I posted a comment on a thread back then that I believed we would see our very first MS70RD Lincoln cent coming out of the 2002 dated Lincolns. It didn't happen until this 2003 cent was graded a couple years later. But, I do believe there are cents from 2002-2003 (especially those 2 years) that would comfortably fit into PCGS-MS70RD holders. The only question in my mind is when (and if) they will be slabbed.
Wondercoin
<< <i>If it is 5 months from now, the coin will be worth a few hundred dollars at best.
You're wrong
-David >>
Maybe not that low. I'd say a few thousand.
Some Moderns are easy to come by and priced low to collect for the fun of it without worrying about the cost of your hobby, however that doesn't allow for all Moderns to be lumped in the same category.
<< <i>The concept that there are billions of examples to find more 70s is misguided. Odds are if there is a 70 found, it came from a mint set. If it were possible to search all the rest of the "billions" intended for circulation, I don't believe you would find a 70. With mint set coins, you will find significant costs involved in finding so called "common" moderns. I would cherish the day I find another 2005 P Sacagawea PCGS MS70 Satin Finish (Pop 3) or a 2003 Lincoln 70 for the first time. Anyone that thinks it's easy, please go make 10 for me at "easy" price and I'll buy them all.
Some Moderns are easy to come by and priced low to collect for the fun of it without worrying about the cost of your hobby, however that doesn't allow for all Moderns to be lumped in the same category. >>
Another thing that many bashers are overlooking is that even if it were
true that only 20% of the sets have been checked and the probability of
finding a few more is quite high, this presupposes that these sets actually
get checked before thet are lost. The attrition on mint sets is usually close
to 25% in the first year now days and can be as high as 5% annually after
that. Until these sets are sold by the original purchaser it's about the same
as that they don't exist. Some of these won't be sold for decades and they
will be exposed to the customary dangers until then.
Look at the 1968 cent. All of the ones in mint sets now have carbon spots.
Where are you going to find spectacular gems now?
We don't know what will happen to the 2003 sets in the future.
<< <i>I think it first sold for near 15k on Teletrade (didn't it?). >>
RBinTEX,
You are correct, it sold on teletrade for $15,120. It is the same 2003P PCGS MS-70 RD listed on a recent mailer that they sent me a couple of months ago, of which I still have.
Young Numismatist ............................ and growing!
cladking- I completely understand what you are saying about finding the modern clad coins in ultra high grades. I agree and there are many reasons for this. One is that nobody has been saving them back because until the registry came along nobody cared about ultra high grade modern coins. And many or most still don't. There are just a few deep pocket guys in the registry to drive these coins to what I call stupid money.
I guess what I have always been trying to say is that you can take ANY modern coin that cost (not worth) stupid money and you can buy that coin in 65, which is GEM, for next to nothing. That extra point for the 2003 in 70 is very very very expensive!
Modern coins are not rare, but a lot of them are very hard to find in ultra high grades because they were not saved and taken care of.
Nobody and I mean nobody cared about the coins minted in the 60's or 70's or 80's or even 90's. Now those coins are hard to find in high grades.
I had to settle for a 63 on my 69-P because I could not find a cheap one on ebay. Someone had a few here on the boards, but wanted 200 or so. I just could not do it. I kept thinking what that 200 could buy in a seated or barber dime. Finally a guy felt sorry for me and gave me the MS63. So I lost 3 points! Who cares!
Everybody should collect what he or she likes!
JMHO
<< <i>cladking- I completely understand what you are saying about finding the modern clad coins in ultra high grades. I agree and there are many reasons for this. One is that nobody has been saving them back because until the registry came along nobody cared about ultra high grade modern coins. And many or most still don't. There are just a few deep pocket guys in the registry to drive these coins to what I call stupid money.
I guess what I have always been trying to say is that you can take ANY modern coin that cost (not worth) stupid money and you can buy that coin in 65, which is GEM, for next to nothing. That extra point for the 2003 in 70 is very very very expensive!
Modern coins are not rare, but a lot of them are very hard to find in ultra high grades because they were not saved and taken care of.
Nobody and I mean nobody cared about the coins minted in the 60's or 70's or 80's or even 90's. Now those coins are hard to find in high grades.
I had to settle for a 63 on my 69-P because I could not find a cheap one on ebay. Someone had a few here on the boards, but wanted 200 or so. I just could not do it. I kept thinking what that 200 could buy in a seated or barber dime. Finally a guy felt sorry for me and gave me the MS63. So I lost 3 points! Who cares!
Everybody should collect what he or she likes!
JMHO >>
The thing is that you can say the same thing about almost any coin; in low grade
most are generally available except for a few key dates. Regular issue moderns
range from distressingly common to common enough in circulated condition.
Collectors have always sought rarity and completeness. If you set your sights too
low many of the moderns are going to simply be no fun to collect. This isn't to say
you won't have fun assemblinmg a F/ VF dime collection from circulation. You can. But
you have to seek the best coins and learn something about them or it's more like a
chore than a pastime or hobby. If you're really looking at coins you're collecting and
learning then almost any of them can be a hoot.
Seeking rarity in and collecting moderns has been going on since before the registries
existed. To find rarity in moderns you have to look past the mundane and there are
mountains of the mundane. While things like unc clad quarters are not extremely com-
mon they are certainly mountainous compared to the number of unc seated liberty
coins. (about a 15' mountain) This leaves collectors looking for varieties, special issues
and higher grades. Some of these rarities really don't even need to be unc to be high
grade. Indeed, there are some that won't even exist in unc. Even among those which
need to be high grade to be rare, there are some which are not common until you get
a few grades lower. Nice choice specimens for many coins are tough, As you say these
are generally pretty cheap, and I agree, that they are a comparatively good deal in ma-
ny cases. If you twisted my arm I might even agree that the pop-tops can be bad deals
sometimes but these are the going prices. I can't agree that people are wrong to pay
them, and if history holds, some of these will have the strongest advances in the future.
Is the 2003 a good deal. I can't pretend to know. I do know it's unique and will never
be common. WonderCoin said that the '02 and '03 coins come real nice but some of the
late '80's Denver mints come spectacular as well. One (or a few) of these grading MS-70
in the future shouldn't be ruled out. Other dates and denominations are quite unlikely
but there are a few spectaclar dimes from the late '70's that should be shoe-ins for 69.
Whatever the future holds, there are a lot of people having fun collecting these coins.
Personally they seem dramatically underappreciated to me. It seems nearly incompre-
hensible that thirty and forty year old coins that were scarce when they were made be-
cause of high grade and are far scarcer now can sell for little or no premium. (if you can
find them). One thing seems sure; people are no more likely to quit collecting moderns
than they are to quit collecting classics. There will be a market for the 2003.
We're all getting older and so are these coins. Top-grade examples of conditionally scarce dates will
continue to bring seemingly amazing prices to outsiders (classic collectors who shun moderns.)
Reasons for the "high" prices may be the expenses of time and money (and aggravation) in getting PCGS to
agree and encapsulate the coins in top-grade. In other words, why bother with the expense of getting a
legitimate numismatic item (i.e. 1969-P clad quarter in PCGS MS-66) finally slabbed if the interested
collectors aren't willing to pay a worthwhile price to attain the scarce item?
"pocket change" i.e., the example of the 1969 PCGS MS-66 clad quarter I referred to in my previous post.
I (in no way) do not support the 2003-P Lincoln Cent in PCGS MS-70 priced in the high five figures. I'm
more or less am justifying prices of tough high grade clad coins in terms of hundreds of dollars, sometimes
$1000/+ ( not $70,000/+)
Personally, I like clad quarters (1965-98) and believe some dates are due for future appreciation in PCGS
MS-66 and better grades as new collectors tackle the series. It will happen in time.
The rest is history.
roadrunner
For now...
<< <i>The demand for the supergrades of 69/70 on moderns did not exist until PCGS developed the REG sets. And like the FED they control the supply. Collectors did not wake up one day and all decide we want supergrades. Dealers (and TPG's) made this decision for them.
The rest is history.
roadrunner >>
This is untrue. There were hundreds of collectors for these long before the services arose.
Of course people have to get the 69/70 idea out of their heads since most of the circulation
issues simply don't exist in such grades. Many of these are quite scarce even in MS-65.
<< <i>
<< <i>The demand for the supergrades of 69/70 on moderns did not exist until PCGS developed the REG sets. And like the FED they control the supply. Collectors did not wake up one day and all decide we want supergrades. Dealers (and TPG's) made this decision for them. The rest is history. roadrunner >>
This is untrue. There were hundreds of collectors for these long before the services arose. Of course people have to get the 69/70 idea out of their heads since most of the circulation issues simply don't exist in such grades. Many of these are quite scarce even in MS-65. >>
1. How many manhours spent searching 20,000 new state quarters?
2. Any costs associated with search (i.e. premiums for sealed cases, etc.)?
3. How many MS68 coins from search? Avg. asking price per coin?
4. So, what is the hourly rate for this work then?
Wondercoin