What's the difference between an MS69 Modern and MS70 Modern (answer inside...)
GoldenEyeNumismatics
Posts: 13,187 ✭✭✭
There isn't one! 
Sure, maybe an MS69 has a microscopic scuff or two, but I've seen countless PCGS "MS70" coins with tics and scuffs.
Flame away...
Sure, maybe an MS69 has a microscopic scuff or two, but I've seen countless PCGS "MS70" coins with tics and scuffs.
Flame away...
0
Comments
<< <i>MS-70: Shows no imperfections under 5 power magnification. Must be 100% fully struck and have full original luster and outstanding eye appeal.
MS-69: Will show only one or two miniscule imperfections. Must be fully struck and have full original luster and eye appeal. >>
If I'm wrong about that, then just realize that I went to school in the short bus. Honestly, I did.
Modern Market
About $1,000.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Sure, maybe an MS69 has a microscopic scuff or two, but I've seen countless PCGS "MS70" coins with tics and scuffs. >>
You've seen countless examples huh? OK post just one PCGS MS70 coin with scuffs on it.
roadrunner
WHY..?!?!....Because of the market conditions.The coin is worth thousands and thousands of dollars.If a coin is to be graded by one company as a Perfect..MS70 ..coin then let it also be graded by a board of Governers such as the ANA or such.To pass a grading scrutiny as a perfect coin and command premium dollars it should pass an extreme test to be the Best of the Best....
Again, some are clearly better & others not. I can not see a huge premium being paid for negligable differences but am not here to block folks from spending their money on such - that 2003 cent is totally a joke in my opinion....
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>I know that PCGS isn't too generous on business strike MS70's. Sure they give some mint set MS70's now and then, but they have only slabbed one business strike MS70 to (I believe) a 2003-P Lincoln cent ever. That's pretty stingy.
If I'm wrong about that, then just realize that I went to school in the short bus. Honestly, I did. >>
your bus was bigger than mine
Bear in mind that with moderns, just like classics, there are "liner" coins. And, just as a Saint can upgrade a single point (or even 2!) and add $25,000.00 value to a coin in a New York second, so too can a liner PR69DC potentially upgrade and add big value to a coin. Study a particular series (modern or classic) and get familar with what the top grade looks like - then it will all begin to make some sense.
Wondercoin
That's the top of the scale.....perfection.
To get those grades there simply cannot be any flaws, and no other coin can be any finer or a contradiction exists. Hence they all need to be perfect. Still looking for my first though.
roadrunner
<< <i>I think that this whole subject is an "Emperor's New Clothes" proposition. I agree that most PCGS 70 graded coins are nice and without any significant flaws; I would not call the flaws I do see scuffs however, but with scrutiny there are many times very minor edge issues or pinpoint losses in matte surface that are very early and very minor signs of die deterioration. These can occasionally be seen with the naked eye. They are not large and not scuffs but are definately causing the coin to be less than perfect. They are so similar to some "69" pieces that I believe I could find specimens and hide the labels and people would not reliably be able to tell the difference.
Again, some are clearly better & others not. I can not see a huge premium being paid for negligable differences but am not here to block folks from spending their money on such - that 2003 cent is totally a joke in my opinion.... >>
I agree, this 2003 Lincoln is totally a joke!
Keith
<< <i>What's the difference between an MS69 Modern and MS70 Modern >>
$$$
San Diego, CA
That's the top of the scale.....perfection.
Incorrect.
Wondercoin
<< <i>There isn't one!
Everyone has a right to their own opinion.
As for your explanation, each series of moderns grades differently just like each series of classic coins. Those who say 70 = perfect are just looking for an argument.
--Jerry
Wondercoin
<< <i>As for your explanation, each series of moderns grades differently just like each series of classic coins. Those who say 70 = perfect are just looking for an argument. >>
I agree Jerry!
The name is LEE!
Proud recipient of two "You Suck" awards
<< <i>
<< <i>Sure, maybe an MS69 has a microscopic scuff or two, but I've seen countless PCGS "MS70" coins with tics and scuffs. >>
You've seen countless examples huh? OK post just one PCGS MS70 coin with scuffs on it. >>
I don't have any because I don't waste my money on MS70's
and MS-70 modern than between an MS-64 and MS-65 classic.
It some cases it may be true that this difference is smaller because the entire issue is well
made but in most cases there is not only NO basis in fact but no MS-70's or MS-69's either.
<< <i>don't understand why some think there must be a lot less difference between an MS-69
and MS-70 modern than between an MS-64 and MS-65 classic >>
Of course there is a big difference. The higher up the grading scale you go, the better or closer to perfection the coins get, and the narrower the difference between grades becomes. Its a matter of diminishing returns. The higher up the scale you go the less improvement in quality you get for each grade point, and for your money.
CG
What's in question is the units. ;-)
http://www.shieldnickels.net
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>don't understand why some think there must be a lot less difference between an MS-69
and MS-70 modern than between an MS-64 and MS-65 classic >>
Of course there is a big difference. The higher up the grading scale you go, the better or closer to perfection the coins get, and the narrower the difference between grades becomes. Its a matter of diminishing returns. The higher up the scale you go the less improvement in quality you get for each grade point, and for your money.
CG >>
Each date of each series has its own grading scale. While some dates may
lay out on something resembling a bell curve this isn't true for all. How can
anyone claim a hypothetical MS-68 bust dollar and a hypothetical MS-67 bust
dollar necessarily has a wider spread in grade than a hypothetical MS-69 clad
quarter and hypothetical MS-70 clad quarter.
Usually when people say there is no difference between an MS-69 "modern"
and a MS-70 "modern" they are talking about later date silver eagles or some
specific commem. To the graders and submitters these aren't identical even
if there's little spread in quality (and hence some overlap).
It certainly does not follow that those who submit, grade, or collect the coins
are greater fools or opportunists nor is there good reason to so frequently re-
visit the topic in its many guises.
Wondercoin
P.S. And that AU58 vs MS63 line also shows that nothing is black and white with grading - just like "perfect' vs. non-perfect coins, there is circulated vs. uncirculated coins - and upgrades often had from circulating AU58 coins becoming "uncirculated" in grade.
Take a look at the following coin for an example. ANACS graded this coin a MS66 6 Steps and Prooflike. It's hard to imagine finding a another coin for the date with as many qualities as this one displays. As a matter of fact, I'm not even looking for a better date since the odds are very thin there's a better coin out there, even in any MS68 holder. This is what I'm saying when it's up to the collector. Take away the EDS strike, toning and prooflike surfaces and what do we have, a lustrous, fully struck, virtually markfree coin! Another comes along and it has a couple of less pinpoint marks and it's graded MS70? What nonsense people play!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
either way, heck of a nice coin, but it is dated 1999 and i feel
the color on it is AT. Improper storage.
thanks for posting, i basically agree with you. ;-)
This is a PCGS forum after all, but let's just say Brand X seems to return numbers in terms of percentage 70s on moderns depending on the submitter & I won't say the shopping channel that purveys this stuff or the series (do I hear presidential?) that this is showing.
BTW, does anybody know off hand the bulk rates for grading for either PCGS or NGC since they always refer to what our grading fees would be if we did it singly? I am thinking of the full run of silver eagles that are always on offer...
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>kiyote - that actually graded a "69"? I have seen a lot less to cost a coin the one point. I do admit that I have seen some silver eagles that came out 69 that should have been 67 or 68, and for that matter gold as well.
>>
It is-- it's in a tenth anniversary slab, MS69. I agree with you 100%-- that's a heck of a gouge for being "so close" to perfection.
<< <i>leo, you say it was graded 66 when your picture says 65.
either way, heck of a nice coin, but it is dated 1999 and i feel
the color on it is AT. Improper storage.
thanks for posting, i basically agree with you. ;-) >>
I must be getting old and senile, it's been graded a MS65....unbelieveable!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>There is no such thing as a perfect coin. >>
Perfection is not the criteria for MS70.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>There is no such thing as a perfect coin. >>
Perfection is not the criteria for MS70. >>
Depends on whose criterion you use.
The old ANA standards used to call MS-70 "Perfect" uncirculated. That may have changed more recently; this was as of 15-20 years ago. But if 70 doesn't imply perfection, perhaps "perfect uncirculated" (or proof) was a bad choice of words. Maybe "Ultimate" would be more appropriate.
According to the PCGS standard for MS-70, perfection is not required (merely no blemishes or imperfections visible at a certain magnification).
I think the PCGS definition is probably more practical, or else 70 is just a "theoretical" grade which could never be achieved.