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And the next Presidential Dollar Major Error is...Madison Proof Doubled Die Reverse!

TexastTexast Posts: 1,899 ✭✭✭✭
Look for your self, you will notice the hand on the torch, hair line, nose, eye, fingertips..etc....I found this in a set yesterday...it is the reverse of the Madison Dollar. Think the sets might start selling now??

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More Pics as requested
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This is a normal image as it should appear for comparison.

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On BS&T Now: Nothing.
Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.

Comments

  • pf70collectorpf70collector Posts: 6,733 ✭✭✭
    Cool. Thanks for the pics. Something to look out for.
  • Interesting, thanks image
    Never teach a pig to sing. You'll waste your time and annoy the pig image

    image
  • I'm keeping my 35 sets sealed in the mint box. This could be paydirt. che-ching!image
    GOD BLESS AMERICA!

    image
  • 2manycoins2fewfunds2manycoins2fewfunds Posts: 3,039 ✭✭✭
    Likely strike doubling which is common in modern proofs...........
  • RampageRampage Posts: 9,512 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It kinds looks like it may be double struck. Can you post an image of the whole obverse and reverse?
  • tyler267tyler267 Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭✭
    How many of these coins did you find, and how many sets did you look at?
  • SUMORADASUMORADA Posts: 4,797
    sure does look doubled from the pics.........
  • TexastTexast Posts: 1,899 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>How many of these coins did you find, and how many sets did you look at? >>



    Sufice to say several out of 100 sets

    I'll see what the first one goes for at auction, I'll send the others for certification.
    On BS&T Now: Nothing.
    Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
    Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
  • Do you have photos of the other coins (or a coin) for comparison?
  • [

    << <i>

    << <i>How many of these coins did you find, and how many sets did you look at? >>



    Sufice to say several out of 100 sets

    I'll see what the first one goes for at auction, I'll send the others for certification. >>

    With several found out of only 100 sets, it doesn't seem as if it is going to be particularly scarce, does it? Of course that doesn't mean it won't be an ebay gold mine.
  • tahoe98tahoe98 Posts: 11,388 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Likely strike doubling which is common in modern proofs........... >>




    ya sure rain on his parade.



    image
    "government is not reason, it is not eloquence-it is a force! like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." George Washington
  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,923 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If you found several of them, and the doubling
    looks pretty much the same, and, based on the
    scans, I'd say they exhibit "ejection" or "mechanical"
    doubling, and do not appear to be double struck
    coins.......

    If you'd like, bring one or more to the ANA in Milwaukee,
    and I'll be glad to examine them up-close and personal.........

    Fred
    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
  • If you found several of them, and the doubling
    looks pretty much the same, and, based on the
    scans, I'd say they exhibit "ejection" or "mechanical"
    doubling, and do not appear to be double struck
    coins.......

    If you'd like, bring one or more to the ANA in Milwaukee,
    and I'll be glad to examine them up-close and personal.........

    Fred


    What is the difference between double-die and double struck?
  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,923 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A double strike is a coin that was struck once,
    then struck again - either in the collar, or with
    the second strike off center.

    A doubled die is just that - the DIE itself was
    impressesed twice from a working Hub -
    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,696 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Likely strike doubling which is common in modern proofs........... >>



    I agree.
    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • tincuptincup Posts: 5,379 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have to agree with the suggestions that it looks like machine/ejection doubling. What makes me think that, is the flatness and the unfrosted look of the doubling on most of the areas; for instance, look at the top serif of the dollar sign. The entire serif appears to have been 'flattened'... and most likely not from a doubled die.

    A year of so ago, I had found a silver state quarter proof that had this same identical type of doubling... and got very excited thinking it was a major doubled, maybe even a tripled die. After careful study over time, I came to realize it most likely is machine doubling, since the motto had that same wide flattened shelf that was not frosted...... even though much of the doubling was frosted...... image

    I would certainly take Fred Weinberg up on his offer to look at them at a coin show.... he will definitely give you the real story on whether they are the real thing or not.
    ----- kj
  • RampageRampage Posts: 9,512 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Based on the new images, I agree with strike doubling.
  • How did you get the pics?
    I didn't know the coin was out yet?


    Edited: Doh, it's a proof...
    image
  • cmerlo1cmerlo1 Posts: 7,957 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If it's a DDR, it looks like there should be separation and notching on the points on the Statue of Liberty's crown, but there isn't...might be strike doubling, but the way the secondary image of the thumb overlaps the torch looks unusual to me...I do wonder, though...proofs are struck multiple times- what if it rotated ever-so-slightly between strikes? That, IMHO, looks more consistent with what the photos show...

    --Christian
    You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
  • fcloudfcloud Posts: 12,133 ✭✭✭✭
    The doubling is flat which would indicate double struck or ejection doubling (very common on early Mercury Dimes, too).

    Double die is when the die is stamped (processed) it is impressed a second time just a bit off. Every single coin would look the same (at least in EDS). The double die coins would have a rounded look not a flat look like this image.

    President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay

  • TexastTexast Posts: 1,899 ✭✭✭✭
    I've seen ejection doubling before, never to this extent, strike doubling, maybe, it still does not explain detail where it should not be if it was from ejection. I know that pictures can only show so much, I looked for the flat shelving and while some may appear that way it does not explain frosting where it should be flattened and smooth. If you notice on the torch there is horizontal lines in the gap between the outlines. the finger tips that you would expect to be flat if ejection doubled are round. I would be happy for Fred to look at these, but I have no plans to go to Wisconson to the show.

    Also the fact that this I have only found a few I had said several but the better term is a few, all on the Madison Dollar makes me believe it is a problem with the die itself. Maybe someone can show an example of ejection doubling to this extent on some other coin. Anyone?
    On BS&T Now: Nothing.
    Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
    Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,696 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Remember, the Proofs receive two full cycles from the coin press, which can make strike doubling dramatically different from regular issue strike doubling.
    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • GrumpyEdGrumpyEd Posts: 4,749 ✭✭✭
    It looks like it's probably strike doubling.

    The easiest way to tell if you have several is look at all of the ones that have doubling, compare it and if it's not exactly the same on every coin it's definitely only strike doubling. It looks like the best area to look at would be the finger tips on the torch. Real DDOs will be EXACTLY the same not just similar.

    imageimageimage

    I have seen it on modern proofs.

    Here's a 69 proof cent with strike doubling:
    (like the 69 strike doubles crooks sell as DDOs on ebay) image

    image
    Ed
  • tincuptincup Posts: 5,379 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here is a photo of the quarter I mentioned earlier that has the same type of doubling/tripling in the hair; however, it has a wide 'flattening' on the motto so unfortunately I believe it to be machine doubling: What do you think? Regardless, it is really kool doubling!

    image
    Shot at 2007-06-29
    ----- kj
  • Sorry, The dollar coin is a nice example of strike doubling. If the dies were doubled to that degree you would see doubled points on the rays of Miss Liberty. The doubling is flat and shelflike.



  • << <i>what if it rotated ever-so-slightly between strikes? >>


    I would think slight rotation of the die between strikes, not the coin.

    One thing that can happen with proofs is tha since they receive two strikes, if machine doubling occurs on the first strike, the second strie can flatten and spread the "shelf" created by the machine doubling. I believe that is called flat field doubling.
  • I see someone asked this question in this thread but no one answered. I have searched the mint site and I can not even find the release date for James madison. How did you get one?
    RACC
    I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!
  • I asked that question but then realized that they were from the proof set
    image
  • Ah kinda weird to find one like that in a proof set. but thanks for the info image
    RACC
    I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!
  • It's too bad the pictures aren't a little clearer.
  • And I thought it was the "forgot to keep mouth closed while eating and packing coins variety"

    image


    image
  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This one looks to be mechanical or strike doubling.
    One thing to look for is the design element itself. On a true hub doubled coin, the element..say the torch or the finger...is actually 2 separate fingers or 2 separate torches-one overlapping the other. But on a stike or mechanical doubled coin the element...again say the finger or torch...is actually only ONE finger or ONE torch...with some sort of stiking on the normal sized element, like your example.

    A better example. an outstretched hand is 5 fingers---mechanical doubling still shows 5 fingers, but a second imprint is often seen on the 5 normal sized fingers...
    a true doubled die shows 10 fingers on the same outstretched hand, 5 slightly offset from the other 5.
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • OPAOPA Posts: 17,139 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I see someone asked this question in this thread but no one answered. I have searched the mint site and I can not even find the release date for James madison. How did you get one? >>



    It's part of the 4 coin proof set...

    US MINT LINK
    "Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
  • OPAOPA Posts: 17,139 ✭✭✭✭✭
    oops..wrong link..Link
    "Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
  • GrumpyEdGrumpyEd Posts: 4,749 ✭✭✭
    Same coin on the bay? image


    Same coin?
    Ed
  • TexastTexast Posts: 1,899 ✭✭✭✭
    No, different coin same batch.
    On BS&T Now: Nothing.
    Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
    Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.

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