well it is very unfortunate that this is another perfect example on how the ebay system is broken when it comes to feedback. Seller gets money and holds feedback hostage so if negative feedback is left then the seller can leave negative in return. Wonderful. So now Sonny who paid never got his card but did get negative feedback on top of not getting his rare card. This is one reason I wont deal with the same seller again if they dont leave feedback after I paid and hold my feedback hostage.
Sonny one thing you can do is block the ebay ID from making purchases from you. Who knows the shoe might be on the other foot where he might want something you have. It messed up but theres not much I think you can do Well there is one thing... It all depends on how pissed off you really are? You could find the sellers IP# from an email header and _______(fill in the blank).
Its very lame to get negative feedback and no card....Sorry again this happened to you...
Tim , I'm sorry if I implied that negitive feedback has been left by Rob. It has not. I'm wish the card were here. Then this thread would be over. Its been over 4 weeks and we need some kind of resolution. Rob has been very consistant in thought and word. He has not emailed me at all unless I emailed him first. His care and concern has been very consistant. Zero. His actions or lack of action, truely speak louder than words. I keep forgeting that he has a job from 8-5 pm. If he ever gets to the point where he has 5 sons and works 60-65 hours a week (as I do ), then I'd have a little more understanding. At this point, I'm very frustrated at him and the postal service.
Right now I'm more angry at the works program called the postal service. There are some very good postal workers that are worth their weight in gold. Others there would probably serve the country better simply drawing welfare and let a real person earn the money that they are flushing down the toilet under the idea of work.
With the only recourse that I have left; feedback, I feel bad as Rob has mailed the card out. The people he has hired to do the job of getting the card here has failed him , and me. Again I have asked nothing of Rob, but he has offered NO help or solution. The money is not the issue here as I blow that much on coins or cards ( or starbucks ) every month and then some. I'll just get the next one( his card that he sold) the next time. I just know I'm not at fault at all here. See you all in a week or sooner if the card gets here.
Tim, remember me if you want to sell the psa 5 you have. I have a great home for them.
" In a time of universal deceit , telling the truth is a revolutionary act " --- George Orwell
Right now I'm more angry at the works program called the postal service. There are some very good postal workers that are worth their weight in gold. Others there would probably serve the country better simply drawing welfare and let a real person earn the money that they are flushing down the toilet under the idea of work.
I'm sorry to hear youre card got lost, Sonny. I've never had a package lost in the mail, either to and from me, in over 2,000 transactions, so the PO is pretty reliable when it comes to delivering packages, IMO.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
The card was mailed on the 16th of June, 30 days is not for another 14 at the least. If after that the card has not arrived then a refund should be offered. JMO
The card was mailed on the 16th of June, 30 days is not for another 14 at the least. If after that the card has not arrived then a refund should be offered. JMO
Steve
I agree with Steve here. This is a classic example of why sellers ought to insure any package they ship unless they're willing to absorb the loss if a package gets lost. Insurance is protection for the seller, not the buyer, IMO. If a buyer pays for it, that's just a bonus in my book.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i> The card was mailed on the 16th of June, 30 days is not for another 14 at the least. If after that the card has not arrived then a refund should be offered. JMO
Steve
I agree with Steve here. This is a classic example of why sellers ought to insure any package they ship unless they're willing to absorb the loss if a package gets lost. Insurance is protection for the seller, not the buyer, IMO. If a buyer pays for it, that's just a bonus in my book. >>
I predict the card will arrive after the 4th. I've had similar mailings take up to 3 weeks a few times so while it is unusual it does happen.
The postal system has worked well for me too. I've mailed over 10,000 packages over the past 9 years. One got damaged and it was packed well. Two got lost to the buyer. One got lost that was mailed to me. That's pretty much it for bad postal news from me.
I've had more trouble with UPS than USPS and on far less transactions.
I finally left a negitive due to very rude email from Rob. I had asked Rob how he had planned on working this out if no card arrived. If I knew how to post his email as is ,I would. Sorry it ended this way.
Again, I had asked nothing of Rob, but what would happen if the card never arrived. Please block me from your bidders list, if waiting this long, one for actually mailing the card out and 32 days after paying.
Sorry Rob, I hope your roof problems work themself out. I will not be bidding from you again.
" In a time of universal deceit , telling the truth is a revolutionary act " --- George Orwell
I am done, Post what ever you want after this. I do not care, and will not be reading the thread anymore either.
I emailed Sonny and told him i would grant a refund for half the price of the card, since I felt he is at much at fault here since he did not pay to insure the card as I am. If he cant even conclude that when I I said I was not responsible for lost or damages cards, and he chose not to insure it, that isn't my problem.
Furhtermore, I got two invoices from sellers for cards that I bought in the last couple weeks and I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE THAT STATES THIS. I do not have a problem adding an additional $1.50 to insure a card and make sure I get it.
For the record, Sonny is the only person that had a problem with me only being able to get to the post office on the weekends. Talking about impatient. I had like 40 auctions, and he is the only one that complained about when I got his check, when I posted that I received his check and so on. If a check gets delivered to my P.O. Box, I still can not get to the bank until the following Saturday. My bank is only open from 8 to 3. Am I supposed to take time off of work just to put a check into my bank account.
I was not trying ot be rude in my email, I was just stating facts, and even showing examples.
edited to add: I see you both exchanged negatives.
I am saddened by the way this turned out.
I wish all sellers would insure the items they sell. Even if it is by way of self insuring and not put it on the buyer to make sure the item he/she pays for arrives.
like mentioned many times here, for 5.00 one can buy mailers, pay for postage and insure a card and have 2 bucks left over.
Rob , I'm sorry that this ended the way it did. To email me and say "I should've asked questions before I bidded " , is alot to ask of a buyer . Imagine before I was bidding on something , If I asked a seller, will they be mailing my item out after 2 weeks of payment, is asking for trouble , more liken on to be put on a blocked bidders list or getting a bid canciled . If I was selling something, and stated that I will be mailing your item out when I can find the time or get around to it , would result in far fewer bidder, as who wants to put up with that crap. I've bid on many items that the seller stated in advance, that it would be mailed out on a future date. No surprizes, no worrying, more importantly, no dissapointment. In your future auctions, you might be a little more honest.
I sent you a postal money order, which could've been cashed at the post office that day . The card could've been sent out that day. Not later as was the case. Treat people the way you would want to be treated has many applications here, if one has that mind set. We all do whats most important to us. The way you have handled this, speaks well of your mind set. I haven't been happy with any of your service and would love to know what part I am overlooking, that I should be happy about. To state "I will mail you a partial refund on the 21 of July ", is asking alot of me. Your card never made it here . Why would I ever want to believe that you would even mail it , much less believe its going to make it ?
I negged you for your service and responses to the seller responsibilites that you consistantly showed. I wished you would have been more honest up front, not after I emailed you. I wish you would've stated something other than "its not my fault" . Take a little time to read the statement at the bottom of my messages that define character. It wasn't the card, as the card can be replaced and I DIDN'T CHOOSE THE INSURANCE. Thats on me. The hope and the trust that goes with it , was destroyed early on. The NEG you left was par for the course.
Thanks anyway for offering the card. It would've been in a nice collection. Good luck in the future with your selling and collecting and your roof. ---Sonny
" In a time of universal deceit , telling the truth is a revolutionary act " --- George Orwell
Sorry to hear the final outcome. I wonder if some of the board members would have been so quick to suggest that the seller offer a refund if the card in question was 100, 500 or even $1000? There is a big difference between being out of pocket for $45 vs $1,000.
And your point is? Jay you are making no sense whatsoever.
my opinion remains the same regardless of dollar amount. I would though show common sense and insure the thing as a seller (if the dollar amount was higher then i would be able to absorb)
The issue here, IMO, is that insurance should be to protect the SELLER, not the buyer. The buyer shouldn't have to pay a surcharge to ensure that the package arrives, and if he doesn't he's SOL. This entire episode is yet another example of why many buyers avoid auctions where Paypal is not accepted. If calaban had paid via Paypal, he'd have a refund by now.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I wonder if some of the board members would have been so quick to suggest that the seller offer a refund if the card in question was 100, 500 or even $1000? There is a big difference between being out of pocket for $45 vs $1,000.
I agree with Steve. The dollar amount is irrelevant.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
For clarification I would not put myself into that posistion. If i am unwilling to take the hit I would purchase insurance regardless if the buyer sent me the money or not.
<< I agree with Steve. The dollar amount is irrelevant. >>
I disagree.
How so? My point was that if the seller purchases insurance, he is covered in the unlikely event the package is lost. That is why insurance is for the protection of the seller, not the buyer. If a buyer pays extra for insurance, that's just a bonus for the seller. The cost of insurance should either be included in the shipping charge, or paid for by the seller (regardless of whether the buyer purchases "optional" insurance) because it is the seller's responsibility that the product is received by the buyer.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
lol I'm not sure what he disagreed with. I told him that the amount did not matter, he disagreed. I think he is saying that he would screw over a buyer that did not purchase insurance if it was a 1000.00 transaction?
Boy you just love that computer language. LOL. My disagreement has nothing to do with the seller buying insurance. As the seller, if you didn't buy insurance to protect yourself I doubt anyone would send the buyer a $1,000 refund. Steve-o you are right, personally I would not refund the $1,000. However, I would refund $45. Screw over, that sounds like you are projecting what you would really do to the buyer.
I wonder if some of the board members would have been so quick to suggest that the seller offer a refund if the card in question was 100, 500 or even $1000?
<< <i>What part don't you get? As a seller I WOULD buy insurance for any deal that I would not feel I could cover myself. >>
The part when you didn't disclose your policy until I asked the question. I hope to buy from you in the future. I don't know of one seller who pays for insurance on their own. You are a heck of a seller.
After reading this thread and following it for the past two weeks, I have mixed emotions about the whole thing. I know Rob is a solid guy and you can see the Sonny is being truthful about the whole ordeal. So, it really stinks to see both get a negative and one person lose $50. If Sonny had paid via paypal then Rob would have lost and Sonny would have been completely reimbursed. I think it is very difficult to sell on Ebay and please everyone. I have found that when I sell items on Ebay the buyer wants me to take 100% of the risk. Sorry to those who think this, but that is wrong. You pay insurance and I will send it insured. If you don't insure and the card is cracked or lost, it is not the sellers problem. If the card exceeded $100 and the buyer did not buy insurance, I will spend the fifty cents to do delivery confirmation.
As for the negative- does this really hurt either one of you? You have 900 feedback and one negative. I would still trust both of you.
Looking for high grade rookie cards and unopened boxes/cases
<< <i>I would rather have the option of being able to buy or not buy the insurance, since I personally think it's a waste of money in 99% of the cases. >>
This statement cracks me up since I am in the insurance business. It is a typical response I hear all the time.
Let me guess it is not a waste of money the 1% of the time when you need to file a claim?
1954
Edited because I misread his quote and now understand his point. However, this is how many people feel about insurance.
Looking for high grade rookie cards and unopened boxes/cases
Jay, I only pay for insurance if I am unwilling to absorb the loss. I will give the buyer the option, if he/she is unwilling to purchase it I either ship it w/o (I am willing to absorb the loss) or I purchase it myself if I am not. Not sure how anyone here could side with a seller that does not deliver, The buyer 'delivered' the money for the item. Sellers should not leave it up to the buyer if they wantinsurance if they are unwilling to absorb a loss. make it mandatory, the sad thing here is that for 5.00 insurance could have come out of pocket and still some dough would have been left over. Sellers that charge 5.00 or more almost always include insurance. Sellers saying 'not responcible for loss or damage' do not get my bids unless they take paypal. (or unless insurance is provided) regardless of who buys it.
Any seller worth his salt will guarantee his product.
I agree with 54 Both Rob and Sonny are solid.
I just wish Sonny waited for 30 days from the day Rob shipped to end the transaction.
Yes I have been told that i am one heck of a seller.
<< <i>I will give the buyer the option, if he/she is unwilling to purchase it I either ship it w/o (I am willing to absorb the loss) or I purchase it myself if I am not. >>
Steve, I agree with your intent, but I don't quite get the portion quoted above. For example, if you sold a $1000 card, why not REQUIRE the buyer to buy insurance? It just doesn't seem right that you would have to pay for it just because the buyer wants to assume the risk by not buying the ins.
It depends on the sale of course. If infact it is a 1000.00 dollar sale my shipping will include insurance, I will only ship without insurance if I am willing to absorb the loss. Of course if i sell something worth 1000.00 I will make the insurance mandatory then.
I'm not at all saying that Sonny did this, but what about the buyer who gets the item with no DC on it, and just says that he didn't get it? Since I use stamps.com I am forced to have DC on every package, but im sure this happens a lot.
I'm not at all saying that Sonny did this, but what about the buyer who gets the item with no DC on it, and just says that he didn't get it? Since I use stamps.com I am forced to have DC on every package, but im sure this happens a lot.
That is the main reason I use DC on every package I ship (and Signature Confirmation for anything over $100). If it's a high-end item, I'll include the cost of insurance with the total shipping cost, but for items less than $100, I usually leave it up to the buyer. I always insure anything over $50, regardless of whether the buyer adds the insurance cost to his payment or not. It's a small expense, but worth the piece of mind. Also, if you use Stamps.com, DC is free and even the cost of postal insurance is discounted, too.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Since this topic I have changed my listings to say "I can not be held responsible for uninsured cards that get damaged in the mail carrier's traveling process." I used to say I can not be responsible for cards that are lost or stolen in the mailing process. As a seller I have learned a few things from this thread that is for the better...
Twiley, why not insure every package that you send then? I think it is very unfair for sellers to claim that they are not responcible for the item getting to them.
maybe it is just me.
Question, if you sellers that use that disclaimer bought something from Sears or some other mail order company would you not expect them to make you wholeif the item was lost or damaged in transit? of course you would. what makes ebay any different?
edited: or are you saying you only will not be held responcible if the item is damaged? But not lost?
<< <i>Twiley, why not insure every package that you send then? I think it is very unfair for sellers to claim that they are not responcible for the item getting to them.
maybe it is just me.
Question, if you sellers that use that disclaimer bought something from Sears or some other mail order company would you not expect them to make you wholeif the item was lost or damaged in transit? of course you would. what makes ebay any different?
edited: or are you saying you only will not be held responcible if the item is damaged? But not lost?
Steve >>
Steve,
i do include insurance on cards that are over 100 bucks. Anything under is optional. Many buyers dont want to spend the extra $1.65 for a 3-5 dollar card. I know I wouldnt...
I include delivery confirmation on all the cards so I know they were delievered. My clause is I am not responsible for the item if it is damaged and no insurance was purchased. If the card is lost and no report on delivery confirmation. I would refund whom ever their money back. My dissclaimer is for damged cards that are not insured. Which has not happend yet. I wrap the card(s) in bubble wrap then throw them in a bubbler and fold the bubble mailer over itself for extra protection. I try to make it buyer friendly the best I can, but of course you cant make everyone happy
Tim , still no card. Well-oh , sometimes this is what happens. I knew I should've walked up there and pick it up myself. Last year I had a seller who lives 30 miles away, who only took 3 weeks to mail the card. He told me he was out of the country and forgot to mail it out before he left. He had only a PO box as a listing as well , just like Rob does. If the card ever comes in, at this point I'd be shocked. I have the cert # blocked incase anyone else has and tries to resell it. I've done this with PSA, through a phantom set in the collectors section. I know , in the eyes of some, I should've waited a week or two, before pulling the plug, but the actions and attitude of Rob was the true cause of his 1st negitive, not the missing card.
I'm still waiting from anyone, especially Rob, as to what part of his service I should've been happy with. In my last email to him, I asked him the same but told him I would not be holding my breath for an answer . This could've been handled any amount of different ways with far better results. I asked nothing of him , but only saw his results . Crap service equals crap feedback . From his postings and emails and how he "worked this out "it really not hard to understand why his life is the way it is. Feedback is left on our jobs, in our relationships and everything else as well. I'm absolutely positive , I'm not the first one to step up to the plate and call him out. Live and learn they say, at least that is the hope. Some learn , some can never learn.
Tim , remember me with that goofy set, if you break it up. I'll be there. Thank you for your support and trying to help. I'm also glad that this thread has been a help to others , as there really was much that could be learned here. Thats may be the only good that may come out of this.
" In a time of universal deceit , telling the truth is a revolutionary act " --- George Orwell
Sonny - On a better note PSA just emailed me today they got my june sub. 99% of my sub is from the set we are both working on. I will have 24 extras from this sub. I know you have some or most but not all.
These are the extras I will have when they are graded and sent back.
7 - Don Mattingly 1 - Greg Luzinski 1- Pedro Guerrero 1 - Jose Oquendo 3 - Pete Rose 1 - Geoff Zahn 3 - Nolan Ryan 1 - Cal Ripken 1 - Oscar Gamble 2 - Carlton Fisk 1 - Cesar Cedeno 1 - Ken Griffey
Maybe we can trade a few grade for grade and grade weight for grade weight?
The others in the submission you will see added to my set when I get them back.
If the 10 lot doesnt sell I will use them as coasters J/K
Seriously thought if they dont sell in the current auction the 3 cards you wanted are yours...
Sonny, I'm sorry the card never showed up and you've had a difficult transaction. I've read this entire thread along the way.
One thing some of you guys mentioned got me thinking, why is the seller responsible for the delivery of any item once it leaves their hands? Afterall, the postal system or whatever delivery method a seller may use is really the one that should be held accountable for doing the job that you've paid them to do: deliver the goods undamaged to the buyer.
I don't see how the seller is at fault in any regard to getting the goods to the buyer, if they can prove they actually mailed the item, since once it's out of their hands and 'in the mail' it's out of their control. I know that many here will completely disagree with this statement but I honestly feel that way as both a buyer and a seller.
If I win a card on ebay, all I expect of the seller is for them to ship the item in a reasonable time frame, pack it well, be able to show me proof of mailing if need be, and maybe acknowledge the item is in transit to me. Feedback would be nice too. That's all I really expect.
At that point I expect USPS, UPS, FEDEx, or whoever to deliver the goods to me. If it doesn't show up, then I hold the delivery company responsible for their poor service.
I also would expect the seller to give me the option of purchasing insurance for the item if I choose to do that. On a cheaper item, I wouldn't purchase it and roll the dice. If it's a rare or expensive item, I would buy the insurance to avoid any heavy financial loss.
As a seller I make insurance optional. On more expensive items I will include that into the shipping/handling charge. If I mail an item without insurance I will mail it with DC or signature confirmation. At this point, once the item is mailed, it's out of my hands. I will not refund any purchase price paid by the seller unless they purchased insurance or I mailed it insured as stated in my listings. Why should I? I've done my job, I've shipped the item and packaged it well. I always will post feedback for the buyer right away too as a way of saying thank you for their business. Sure that leaves me open for negs but I could care less at this point in time.
I expect the exact same treatment as a buyer. If the item never shows up, I'm certainly not blaming the seller for the postal system errors, mistakes, or damages for them not doing their job correctly.
Another point with Steve's post about Sears, since Sears delivers a lot of their own stuff, yes they should be held responsible for any damages or losses that occur during their own trucks deliveries. They represent Sears. They are Sears. These type of places charge a lot for shipping and I'm sure it's stated in their contract they're responsible for losses in shipment. You can't compare Sears to the USPS since USPS isn't the seller of the card that didn't get delivered.
While I may be in the very minority here with these views, I truly feel this way.
Sorry Sonny, this is cold comfort for you who is still missing the item.
At that point I expect USPS, UPS, FEDEx, or whoever to deliver the goods to me. If it doesn't show up, then I hold the delivery company responsible for their poor service
Yes and that is why the 'seller' should 'insure' the item.
And in this case the 'seller' charged 5.00 for shipping which is more then enough to cover such.
As for Sears they do in fact ship many of there items but not all. they do use outside vendors as well.
The bottom line as far as I am concerned is that sellers responcibility does not end with mailing of an item. It ends when the item is in the buyers hand and the item is as described.
<< <i>The issue here, IMO, is that insurance should be to protect the SELLER, not the buyer. >>
I've been giving this some thought. I've always put in my auctions that I can't be responsible for packages lost in the mail. But the 4 or 5 times that it's happened when I mail something out, I've always refunded the buyer and taken the loss myself because I don't want to see somebody get ripped off. So, I'm in the process of changing all my listings to remove that because I would give the refund anyways.
Like you Wabbit, I've had the same 'not responsible for lost/damaged items' line in my listings too for a few years. It's never come down to me having to pay out any claims yet or deal with a missing item except for these examples: two items got lost in the mail but both were optionally insured by the buyer so it was easy to resolve with a USPS lost claim. They took about 45 days to get resolved.
I've had one item get demolished in a USPS shipment despite it being well-packed. It too was insured, but I had a duplicate of the card in the same grade and just mailed it out to cover the buyer. I never followed thru with USPS to get reimbursed for my loss as a seller. Although the buyer mailed the card back to me and I was able to have the cracked up PSA holder, reholdered with no ill affects to the card.
I still feel there's three parts to any transaction: the buyer, the seller, and the shipper. While it's never the buyers fault for an item that doesn't reach them, I feel it's not the sellers fault either unless of course the package was mis-addressed. The shipping company is the guilty culprit.
Here's an example: you send some cards into psa for grading. They grade them and ship them back to you. During the return shipment your package gets lost in the mail. Who do you think is responsible for the lost package? Obviously the shipping company and not PSA. Now this is a somewhat different transaction compared to Sonny and Rob's deal because PSA forces the buyer to purchase shipping insurance to cover any loss.
What a person charges for shipping is of no consequence either in who is responsible. If the seller can prove they mailed the item, that's it... the chain of responsibility falls to the shipping courier.
The best way to handle all buying is to know all the facts before bidding. If an auction just says $5 shipping and nothing else, I would never assume it means the item 'should be' insured by the seller because they are charging me x amount of money for shipping the goods. Why assume anything other than what's stated in the auction listing?
If a buyer wins an auction and chooses to not insure or even inquires about the availability of insurance, he's simply rolling the dice and the item is mailed at the buyers own risk. Many will not agree with this, but it seems like these type of transactions and problems arise daily and the end result is negs on both the buyer/seller and bad feelings all around.
Good sellers will state all aspects of what and how they ship in their listings and make available optional insurance or include it with the shipping costs. Lazy sellers don't. That's when the problems start.
what you and some others fail to see is that the shipper is your agent not the buyers.
Unless of course if you allow the buyer to choose the shipping method. And even then I think it still is the sellers agent not the buyers but not sure.
I love it when I see the "not responcible speel" and the seller takes paypal. paypal is all the insurance I need as a buyer at that point.
the chain of responsibility falls to the shipping courier.
which in fact is your agent and thus is working for you not the buyer.
<< <i>I don't see how the seller is at fault in any regard to getting the goods to the buyer, if they can prove they actually mailed the item, since once it's out of their hands and 'in the mail' it's out of their control. I know that many here will completely disagree with this statement but I honestly feel that way as both a buyer and a seller. >>
If I mail my mortgage payment and it gets lost in the mail, I don't think my bank's gonna be satisfied with "But I did mail it and I've got a receipt from the Post Office" as an explanation.
Twice in the past five years I've bought cards that never arrived. In both cases, I chose not to pay for insurance and in both cases the sellers (Robert Cacamese and Bill Novick) replaced the card with no hassle at all.
I agree with the previous post. The onus of insurance and delivery confirmation should be placed on the seller. The few times I listed on Esnipe I charged enough for shipping to cover the bubble mailer and insurance. It is not a real difficult process to do when you are at the post office,and it really isnt all that expensive.
Do people actually still mail out mortgage payments these days? Mine comes directly out of my checking account on the first of each month. It's really easy that way and leaves no chance for any errors or late payments. I would imagine that many people pay a lot of their other bills online too to avoid lost mail problems.
Unfortunately when mailing an ebay item this isn't possible. While I understand everyone's opinion on this matter, I simply just agree to disagree.
I never want to see any buyer get screwed or not get the item they paid for either, but many do. Just from these boards many buyers who have questions or problems on shipping never seem to contact the seller until there's an issue and it's after the fact. Why is that? Why would anyone place any bids on any auction if the shipping facts aren't easily understood and listed clearly in the auction? I just don't get that. A seller having 100% feedback really doesn't mean a thing either. How do you know going in they're going to be a standup guy and reimburse you for a lost package. You don't, so why risk it?
Most auctions list the shipping amount and what method they use to ship right in the listing. So isn't the buyer the one purchasing and paying for the shipping? Then wouldn't the shipping company also be their agent as well as the sellers? Maybe equally sharing in the liability of the shipper. The shipping companies job is to get them the item they've paid for in one piece and actually deliver on what they were hired to do? When that doesn't occur, how exactly is the seller responsible for a USPS or UPS mistake?
I don't know, it's a no win either way.
The best way to probably avoid these problems is to always purchase insurance from the buyer and pay with paypal. You're covered two ways then. Otherwise you're really rolling the dice in my opinion.
Bottom line here is that to coveryourself as a seller, you ought to either include insurance in the shipping cost or be willing to "self insure" the package. As a seller, I always insure a package if it's worth over $50 whether the buyer chooses to purchase insurance or not, though I automatically add the cost of insurance to higher end items. If it's less than $50, I either buy insurance or "self insure" the package to the extent that I'd refund the buyer in the unlikely event a package ever got lost in the mail. I just think that's the right, responsible thing to do as a seller. If you're not willing to ensure that a product reaches the person who paid you good money to purchase said item, then you ought not to be selling on ebay, IMO.
All this is a moot point if the buyer uses Paypal, as Paypal will ALWAYS side with the buyer if the package gets lost in the mail, whether or not insurance is purchased. The disclaimers that sellers state in their auctions about "not being responsible for lost items if insurance is not purchased" are meaningless and carry no significance whatsoever as far as Paypal is concerned. Which is another reason why many buyers avoid those auctions for which paypal is not accepted, as Paypal affords a level of protection for the buyer in disputes like the one between calaban athe robr1967.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Comments
Sonny one thing you can do is block the ebay ID from making purchases from you. Who knows the shoe might be on the other foot where he might want something you have. It messed up but theres not much I think you can do
Its very lame to get negative feedback and no card....Sorry again this happened to you...
Right now I'm more angry at the works program called the postal service. There are some very good postal workers that are worth their weight in gold. Others there would probably serve the country better simply drawing welfare and let a real person earn the money that they are flushing down the toilet under the idea of work.
With the only recourse that I have left; feedback, I feel bad as Rob has mailed the card out. The people he has hired to do the job of getting the card here has failed him , and me. Again I have asked nothing of Rob, but he has offered NO help or solution. The money is not the issue here as I blow that much on coins or cards ( or starbucks ) every month and then some. I'll just get the next one( his card that he sold) the next time. I just know I'm not at fault at all here. See you all in a week or sooner if the card gets here.
Tim, remember me if you want to sell the psa 5 you have. I have a great home for them.
I'm sorry to hear youre card got lost, Sonny. I've never had a package lost in the mail, either to and from me, in over 2,000 transactions, so the PO is pretty reliable when it comes to delivering packages, IMO.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Steve
Steve
I agree with Steve here. This is a classic example of why sellers ought to insure any package they ship unless they're willing to absorb the loss if a package gets lost. Insurance is protection for the seller, not the buyer, IMO. If a buyer pays for it, that's just a bonus in my book.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i> The card was mailed on the 16th of June, 30 days is not for another 14 at the least. If after that the card has not arrived then a refund should be offered. JMO
Steve
I agree with Steve here. This is a classic example of why sellers ought to insure any package they ship unless they're willing to absorb the loss if a package gets lost. Insurance is protection for the seller, not the buyer, IMO. If a buyer pays for it, that's just a bonus in my book. >>
I predict the card will arrive after the 4th. I've had similar mailings take up to 3 weeks a few times so while it is unusual it does happen.
The postal system has worked well for me too. I've mailed over 10,000 packages over the past 9 years. One got damaged and it was packed well. Two got lost to the buyer. One got lost that was mailed to me. That's pretty much it for bad postal news from me.
I've had more trouble with UPS than USPS and on far less transactions.
Here's hoping your card arrives soon........
Again, I had asked nothing of Rob, but what would happen if the card never arrived. Please block me from your bidders list, if waiting this long, one for actually mailing the card out and 32 days after paying.
Sorry Rob, I hope your roof problems work themself out. I will not be bidding from you again.
I emailed Sonny and told him i would grant a refund for half the price of the card, since I felt he is at much at fault here since he did not pay to insure the card as I am. If he cant even conclude that when I I said I was not responsible for lost or damages cards, and he chose not to insure it, that isn't my problem.
Furhtermore, I got two invoices from sellers for cards that I bought in the last couple weeks and I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE THAT STATES THIS. I do not have a problem adding an additional $1.50 to insure a card and make sure I get it.
For the record, Sonny is the only person that had a problem with me only being able to get to the post office on the weekends. Talking about impatient. I had like 40 auctions, and he is the only one that complained about when I got his check, when I posted that I received his check and so on. If a check gets delivered to my P.O. Box, I still can not get to the bank until the following Saturday. My bank is only open from 8 to 3. Am I supposed to take time off of work just to put a check into my bank account.
I was not trying ot be rude in my email, I was just stating facts, and even showing examples.
Oh well, such is life.
edited to add: I see you both exchanged negatives.
I am saddened by the way this turned out.
I wish all sellers would insure the items they sell. Even if it is by way of self insuring and not put it on the buyer to make sure the item he/she pays for arrives.
like mentioned many times here, for 5.00 one can buy mailers, pay for postage and insure a card and have 2 bucks left over.
Nobody won here.
Steve
I sent you a postal money order, which could've been cashed at the post office that day . The card could've been sent out that day. Not later as was the case. Treat people the way you would want to be treated has many applications here, if one has that mind set. We all do whats most important to us. The way you have handled this, speaks well of your mind set. I haven't been happy with any of your service and would love to know what part I am overlooking, that I should be happy about. To state "I will mail you a partial refund on the 21 of July ", is asking alot of me. Your card never made it here . Why would I ever want to believe that you would even mail it , much less believe its going to make it ?
I negged you for your service and responses to the seller responsibilites that you consistantly showed. I wished you would have been more honest up front, not after I emailed you. I wish you would've stated something other than "its not my fault" . Take a little time to read the statement at the bottom of my messages that define character. It wasn't the card, as the card can be replaced and I DIDN'T CHOOSE THE INSURANCE. Thats on me. The hope and the trust that goes with it , was destroyed early on. The NEG you left was par for the course.
Thanks anyway for offering the card. It would've been in a nice collection. Good luck in the future with your selling and collecting and your roof. ---Sonny
my opinion remains the same regardless of dollar amount. I would though show common sense and insure the thing as a seller (if the dollar amount was higher then i would be able to absorb)
Steve
<< <i>And your point is? Jay you are making no sense whatsoever. >>
I was asking a simple question. I am not sure what you didn't under stand about the question.
lol no kidding?
Steve
Steve
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I agree with Steve. The dollar amount is irrelevant.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>I agree with Steve. The dollar amount is irrelevant. >>
I disagree.
For clarification I would not put myself into that posistion. If i am unwilling to take the hit I would purchase insurance regardless if the buyer sent me the money or not.
Steve
<< I agree with Steve. The dollar amount is irrelevant. >>
I disagree.
How so? My point was that if the seller purchases insurance, he is covered in the unlikely event the package is lost. That is why insurance is for the protection of the seller, not the buyer. If a buyer pays extra for insurance, that's just a bonus for the seller. The cost of insurance should either be included in the shipping charge, or paid for by the seller (regardless of whether the buyer purchases "optional" insurance) because it is the seller's responsibility that the product is received by the buyer.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
lol I'm not sure what he disagreed with. I told him that the amount did not matter, he disagreed. I think he is saying that he would screw over a buyer that did not purchase insurance if it was a 1000.00 transaction?
Steve
<< <i>lol I'm not sure what he disagreed with. >>
<< <i>lol no kidding? >>
Boy you just love that computer language. LOL. My disagreement has nothing to do with the seller buying insurance. As the seller, if you didn't buy insurance to protect yourself I doubt anyone would send the buyer a $1,000 refund. Steve-o you are right, personally I would not refund the $1,000. However, I would refund $45. Screw over, that sounds like you are projecting what you would really do to the buyer.
What part don't you get? As a seller I WOULD buy insurance for any deal that I would not feel I could cover myself.
Bottom line: If i sell something and it does not arrive I REFUND.
regardless of amount.
I hope that has clarified my words.
Steve
I would, after all it was Rob's money.
Steve
<< <i>What part don't you get? As a seller I WOULD buy insurance for any deal that I would not feel I could cover myself. >>
The part when you didn't disclose your policy until I asked the question. I hope to buy from you in the future. I don't know of one seller who pays for insurance on their own. You are a heck of a seller.
If Sonny had paid via paypal then Rob would have lost and Sonny would have been completely reimbursed. I think it is very difficult to sell on Ebay and please everyone. I have found that when I sell items on Ebay the buyer wants me to take 100% of the risk. Sorry to those who think this, but that is wrong. You pay insurance and I will send it insured. If you don't insure and the card is cracked or lost, it is not the sellers problem.
If the card exceeded $100 and the buyer did not buy insurance, I will spend the fifty cents to do delivery confirmation.
As for the negative- does this really hurt either one of you? You have 900 feedback and one negative. I would still trust both of you.
<< <i>I would rather have the option of being able to buy or not buy the insurance, since I personally think it's a waste of money in 99% of the cases. >>
This statement cracks me up since I am in the insurance business. It is a typical response I hear all the time.
Let me guess it is not a waste of money the 1% of the time when you need to file a claim?
1954
Edited because I misread his quote and now understand his point. However, this is how many people feel about insurance.
Any seller worth his salt will guarantee his product.
I agree with 54 Both Rob and Sonny are solid.
I just wish Sonny waited for 30 days from the day Rob shipped to end the transaction.
Yes I have been told that i am one heck of a seller.
Steve
Really? I mentioned my policy on page 3 six days ago in this very thread, well before you asked.
Steve
<< <i>Really? I mentioned my policy on page 3 six days ago in this very thread, well before you asked. >>
If I missed that then I do apologize.
<< <i>I will give the buyer the option, if he/she is unwilling to purchase it I either ship it w/o (I am willing to absorb the loss) or I purchase it myself if I am not. >>
Steve, I agree with your intent, but I don't quite get the portion quoted above. For example, if you sold a $1000 card, why not REQUIRE the buyer to buy insurance? It just doesn't seem right that you would have to pay for it just because the buyer wants to assume the risk by not buying the ins.
My ebay listings
It depends on the sale of course. If infact it is a 1000.00 dollar sale my shipping will include insurance, I will only ship without insurance if I am willing to absorb the loss. Of course if i sell something worth 1000.00 I will make the insurance mandatory then.
Steve
My ebay listings
That is the main reason I use DC on every package I ship (and Signature Confirmation for anything over $100). If it's a high-end item, I'll include the cost of insurance with the total shipping cost, but for items less than $100, I usually leave it up to the buyer. I always insure anything over $50, regardless of whether the buyer adds the insurance cost to his payment or not. It's a small expense, but worth the piece of mind. Also, if you use Stamps.com, DC is free and even the cost of postal insurance is discounted, too.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Sonny anything word?
maybe it is just me.
Question, if you sellers that use that disclaimer bought something from Sears or some other mail order company would you not expect them to make you wholeif the item was lost or damaged in transit? of course you would. what makes ebay any different?
edited: or are you saying you only will not be held responcible if the item is damaged? But not lost?
Steve
<< <i>Twiley, why not insure every package that you send then? I think it is very unfair for sellers to claim that they are not responcible for the item getting to them.
maybe it is just me.
Question, if you sellers that use that disclaimer bought something from Sears or some other mail order company would you not expect them to make you wholeif the item was lost or damaged in transit? of course you would. what makes ebay any different?
edited: or are you saying you only will not be held responcible if the item is damaged? But not lost?
Steve >>
Steve,
i do include insurance on cards that are over 100 bucks. Anything under is optional. Many buyers dont want to spend the extra $1.65 for a 3-5 dollar card. I know I wouldnt...
I include delivery confirmation on all the cards so I know they were delievered. My clause is I am not responsible for the item if it is damaged and no insurance was purchased. If the card is lost and no report on delivery confirmation. I would refund whom ever their money back. My dissclaimer is for damged cards that are not insured. Which has not happend yet. I wrap the card(s) in bubble wrap then throw them in a bubbler and fold the bubble mailer over itself for extra protection. I try to make it buyer friendly the best I can, but of course you cant make everyone happy
I'm still waiting from anyone, especially Rob, as to what part of his service I should've been happy with. In my last email to him, I asked him the same but told him I would not be holding my breath for an answer . This could've been handled any amount of different ways with far better results. I asked nothing of him , but only saw his results . Crap service equals crap feedback . From his postings and emails and how he "worked this out "it really not hard to understand why his life is the way it is. Feedback is left on our jobs, in our relationships and everything else as well. I'm absolutely positive , I'm not the first one to step up to the plate and call him out. Live and learn they say, at least that is the hope. Some learn , some can never learn.
Tim , remember me with that goofy set, if you break it up. I'll be there. Thank you for your support and trying to help. I'm also glad that this thread has been a help to others , as there really was much that could be learned here. Thats may be the only good that may come out of this.
These are the extras I will have when they are graded and sent back.
7 - Don Mattingly
1 - Greg Luzinski
1- Pedro Guerrero
1 - Jose Oquendo
3 - Pete Rose
1 - Geoff Zahn
3 - Nolan Ryan
1 - Cal Ripken
1 - Oscar Gamble
2 - Carlton Fisk
1 - Cesar Cedeno
1 - Ken Griffey
Maybe we can trade a few grade for grade and grade weight for grade weight?
The others in the submission you will see added to my set when I get them back.
If the 10 lot doesnt sell I will use them as coasters
Seriously thought if they dont sell in the current auction the 3 cards you wanted are yours...
Tim
One thing some of you guys mentioned got me thinking, why is the seller responsible for the delivery of any item once it leaves their hands? Afterall, the postal system or whatever delivery method a seller may use is really the one that should be held accountable for doing the job that you've paid them to do: deliver the goods undamaged to the buyer.
I don't see how the seller is at fault in any regard to getting the goods to the buyer, if they can prove they actually mailed the item, since once it's out of their hands and 'in the mail' it's out of their control. I know that many here will completely disagree with this statement but I honestly feel that way as both a buyer and a seller.
If I win a card on ebay, all I expect of the seller is for them to ship the item in a reasonable time frame, pack it well, be able to show me proof of mailing if need be, and maybe acknowledge the item is in transit to me. Feedback would be nice too. That's all I really expect.
At that point I expect USPS, UPS, FEDEx, or whoever to deliver the goods to me. If it doesn't show up, then I hold the delivery company responsible for their poor service.
I also would expect the seller to give me the option of purchasing insurance for the item if I choose to do that. On a cheaper item, I wouldn't purchase it and roll the dice. If it's a rare or expensive item, I would buy the insurance to avoid any heavy financial loss.
As a seller I make insurance optional. On more expensive items I will include that into the shipping/handling charge. If I mail an item without insurance I will mail it with DC or signature confirmation. At this point, once the item is mailed, it's out of my hands. I will not refund any purchase price paid by the seller unless they purchased insurance or I mailed it insured as stated in my listings. Why should I? I've done my job, I've shipped the item and packaged it well. I always will post feedback for the buyer right away too as a way of saying thank you for their business. Sure that leaves me open for negs but I could care less at this point in time.
I expect the exact same treatment as a buyer. If the item never shows up, I'm certainly not blaming the seller for the postal system errors, mistakes, or damages for them not doing their job correctly.
Another point with Steve's post about Sears, since Sears delivers a lot of their own stuff, yes they should be held responsible for any damages or losses that occur during their own trucks deliveries. They represent Sears. They are Sears. These type of places charge a lot for shipping and I'm sure it's stated in their contract they're responsible for losses in shipment. You can't compare Sears to the USPS since USPS isn't the seller of the card that didn't get delivered.
While I may be in the very minority here with these views, I truly feel this way.
Sorry Sonny, this is cold comfort for you who is still missing the item.
Rich
Yes and that is why the 'seller' should 'insure' the item.
And in this case the 'seller' charged 5.00 for shipping which is more then enough to cover such.
As for Sears they do in fact ship many of there items but not all. they do use outside vendors as well.
The bottom line as far as I am concerned is that sellers responcibility does not end with mailing of an item. It ends when the item is in the buyers hand and the item is as described.
Steve
<< <i>The issue here, IMO, is that insurance should be to protect the SELLER, not the buyer. >>
I've been giving this some thought. I've always put in my auctions that I can't be responsible for packages lost in the mail. But the 4 or 5 times that it's happened when I mail something out, I've always refunded the buyer and taken the loss myself because I don't want to see somebody get ripped off. So, I'm in the process of changing all my listings to remove that because I would give the refund anyways.
Like you Wabbit, I've had the same 'not responsible for lost/damaged items' line in my listings too for a few years. It's never come down to me having to pay out any claims yet or deal with a missing item except for these examples:
two items got lost in the mail but both were optionally insured by the buyer so it was easy to resolve with a USPS lost claim. They took about 45 days to get resolved.
I've had one item get demolished in a USPS shipment despite it being well-packed. It too was insured, but I had a duplicate of the card in the same grade and just mailed it out to cover the buyer. I never followed thru with USPS to get reimbursed for my loss as a seller. Although the buyer mailed the card back to me and I was able to have the cracked up PSA holder, reholdered with no ill affects to the card.
I still feel there's three parts to any transaction:
the buyer, the seller, and the shipper. While it's never the buyers fault for an item that doesn't reach them, I feel it's not the sellers fault either unless of course the package was mis-addressed. The shipping company is the guilty culprit.
Here's an example: you send some cards into psa for grading. They grade them and ship them back to you. During the return shipment your package gets lost in the mail. Who do you think is responsible for the lost package? Obviously the shipping company and not PSA. Now this is a somewhat different transaction compared to Sonny and Rob's deal because PSA forces the buyer to purchase shipping insurance to cover any loss.
What a person charges for shipping is of no consequence either in who is responsible. If the seller can prove they mailed the item, that's it... the chain of responsibility falls to the shipping courier.
The best way to handle all buying is to know all the facts before bidding. If an auction just says $5 shipping and nothing else, I would never assume it means the item 'should be' insured by the seller because they are charging me x amount of money for shipping the goods. Why assume anything other than what's stated in the auction listing?
If a buyer wins an auction and chooses to not insure or even inquires about the availability of insurance, he's simply rolling the dice and the item is mailed at the buyers own risk. Many will not agree with this, but it seems like these type of transactions and problems arise daily and the end result is negs on both the buyer/seller and bad feelings all around.
Good sellers will state all aspects of what and how they ship in their listings and make available optional insurance or include it with the shipping costs. Lazy sellers don't. That's when the problems start.
what you and some others fail to see is that the shipper is your agent not the buyers.
Unless of course if you allow the buyer to choose the shipping method. And even then I think it still is the sellers agent not the buyers but not sure.
I love it when I see the "not responcible speel" and the seller takes paypal. paypal is all the insurance I need as a buyer at that point.
the chain of responsibility falls to the shipping courier.
which in fact is your agent and thus is working for you not the buyer.
Steve
R73 1933 Goudey Indian Gum - Series 288 - Nos. 118
Also looking for 1953 Parkhurst & 1953 Quaker Oats Ripley's BION.
If you have any available for sale PM me
<< <i>I don't see how the seller is at fault in any regard to getting the goods to the buyer, if they can prove they actually mailed the item, since once it's out of their hands and 'in the mail' it's out of their control. I know that many here will completely disagree with this statement but I honestly feel that way as both a buyer and a seller. >>
If I mail my mortgage payment and it gets lost in the mail, I don't think my bank's gonna be satisfied with "But I did mail it and I've got a receipt from the Post Office" as an explanation.
Twice in the past five years I've bought cards that never arrived. In both cases, I chose not to pay for insurance and in both cases the sellers (Robert Cacamese and Bill Novick) replaced the card with no hassle at all.
Unfortunately when mailing an ebay item this isn't possible. While I understand everyone's opinion on this matter, I simply just agree to disagree.
I never want to see any buyer get screwed or not get the item they paid for either, but many do. Just from these boards many buyers who have questions or problems on shipping never seem to contact the seller until there's an issue and it's after the fact. Why is that?
Why would anyone place any bids on any auction if the shipping facts aren't easily understood and listed clearly in the auction? I just don't get that. A seller having 100% feedback really doesn't mean a thing either. How do you know going in they're going to be a standup guy and reimburse you for a lost package. You don't, so why risk it?
Most auctions list the shipping amount and what method they use to ship right in the listing. So isn't the buyer the one purchasing and paying for the shipping? Then wouldn't the shipping company also be their agent as well as the sellers? Maybe equally sharing in the liability of the shipper. The shipping companies job is to get them the item they've paid for in one piece and actually deliver on what they were hired to do? When that doesn't occur, how exactly is the seller responsible for a USPS or UPS mistake?
I don't know, it's a no win either way.
The best way to probably avoid these problems is to always purchase insurance from the buyer and pay with paypal. You're covered two ways then. Otherwise you're really rolling the dice in my opinion.
All this is a moot point if the buyer uses Paypal, as Paypal will ALWAYS side with the buyer if the package gets lost in the mail, whether or not insurance is purchased. The disclaimers that sellers state in their auctions about "not being responsible for lost items if insurance is not purchased" are meaningless and carry no significance whatsoever as far as Paypal is concerned. Which is another reason why many buyers avoid those auctions for which paypal is not accepted, as Paypal affords a level of protection for the buyer in disputes like the one between calaban athe robr1967.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.