There is nothing wrong with flipping. And with the hot US Mint product market it has been quite lucrative lately. But the bubble will burst someday and the flippers will learn that the game can be painful at times.
<< <i>There is nothing wrong with flipping. And with the hot US Mint product market it has been quite lucrative lately. But the bubble will burst someday and the flippers will learn that the game can be painful at times. >>
I agree but with the Mint's generous return policy it is a no lose situation. Those with the funds can buy the limit many times over with no risk. This will cause the Mint to change its practices and then we will all suffer.
<< <i> There is nothing wrong with flipping. And with the hot US Mint product market it has been quite lucrative lately. But the bubble will burst someday and the flippers will learn that the game can be painful at times. >>
I wholeheartedly agree…at some point the music will stop on this game of musical chairs and some will be without a seat…
But, there is a big difference with this verses the dot-com and other speculative bubbles; this game has a built in “governor” in the order limits imposed by the mint. Even with extended buying networks, it isn’t possible to continue to “let the profits ride” indefinitely as it is in most other markets. At some point, most flippers will find themselves being forced to take money off the table…it’s just the rules of the game.
So when the inevitable happens, most will still be way ahead of the game…chair or no chair!
It's no more unethical than Wal-Mart buying a bottle of shampoo for $.82 and reselling it for $1.19.
<< <i>You are being self indulgent. What separates those whose orders will get filled from those whose ordered will not get filled is not knowledge -- its the speed of computer keyboard. >>
The biggest hit of the last year, the 2006-W 20th Anniversary sets, took three months to sell out. I guess some people have pretty slow keyboards.
I heard they were making a French version of Medal of Honor. I wonder how many hotkeys it'll have for "surrender."
Joe: recently we have seen the Mint begin to enact stricter limits on many items. Look at the John Adams FDCC. I think, long term, that a strict limit policy will backfire against the Mint--leaving a great many product unsold (and a great deal of potential profit on the table). What I mean is this: for every hit, there are 20 duds. If the Mint puts limits on all their products, they're going to get killed by the duds.
You're right--the most disasterous possible change is a change to the return policy, and/or harsher limits.
I heard they were making a French version of Medal of Honor. I wonder how many hotkeys it'll have for "surrender."
<< <i>If they raised the mintage, it would have decreased interest and they also probably would not have sold as many as they did today. In other words: do you really think that 40,000 people would have loved these coins enough to shell out $430 each? Don't you think that the two-hour sellout made these issues that much more marketable? >>
Don't you think the speculators who scarffed these up today think that more than 40,000 people want these? If they thought otherwise, they would not have bought up to 10 coins each. Of course they may have miscalculated and there may be 4,000 flippers who will be trying to flip 40,000 coins to a market that only wants 20,000 coins or 10,000 coins or perhaps no coins at all--and in that case the Mint outfoxed everyone.
CG
Edited to add:
<< <i> think the Mint knows all the possible outcomes to a given program's policies >>
I think you are giving them far too much credit. >>
Maybe. Still I'm sure they have some bright people that have been around long enough to run a pretty successful business.
Will there be 40,000 homes for these coins? Well, possibly. In a way I'm betting that there are -- but what I think I will end up doing is selling in the short term to other flippers who are even more confident about that demand than I am.
Nothing wrong with it, I dont have a problem with flippers, we all do it to some degree....
Most collectors at heart tend to detest these flippers, as they think you should be in it for the love of the hobby, not just the profit motive....
I can say for myself, when I have taken tables at regional shows, dislike when customers step up and only ask what something is worth and how long do they have to hold it for a profit......it gets old real quick.
If those asking the questions are YN's, then I try to instill a little collecting spirit, nothing wrong with buying a few for profit -but enjoy them while you have them - learn from them - they are little reminders of our history.....
There is nothing wrong or illegal with flipping, most have done it to some degree, as long as all flippers report their income
Reminds me of back in 1985 when Bruce Springsteen was coming to town. I had tried to get tickets, they sold out in hours, many (or most) to scalpers. So I contacted a scalper, met him downtown, the greasy pig would not negotiate, I paid more than double the issue price. I would imagine many collectors who actually wanted one of the first lady coins for their collection at the issue price have the same opinion about flippers.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
Reminds me of back in 1985 when Bruce Springsteen was coming to town. I had tried to get tickets, they sold out in hours, many (or most) to scalpers. So I contacted a scalper, met him downtown, the greasy pig would not negotiate, I paid more than double the issue price.
It might be that 2 hours later, he could have sold that ticket for 4X and he may have regretted selling it to you. Nobody held a gun to your head. I'd have bought the album and spent the rest on having a good time somewhere else, if the price was too high. You got to see the show because of that greasy pig, which is what you wanted most. Would the concert have been any more enjoyable at half the price? If so, blame Springsteen, too - he was in on it.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>Nobody held a gun to your head. I'd have bought the album and spent the rest on having a good time somewhere else, if the price was too high. You got to see the show because of that greasy pig, which is what you wanted most. >>
Aw yes, those wonderful tax-evading scalpers, don't you love 'em? I should have been grateful and given him a big tip. Actually, the opportunity to see the show existed at a lower price, the greasy pig only made it more expensive. Fortunately, scalping for more than the issue price is illegal here now, curbing the rampant scalping and making tickets easier to obtain at the issue price. Illegal scalping still exists, rats will be rats, but at a much reduced level.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
Comments
<< <i>There is nothing wrong with flipping. And with the hot US Mint product market it has been quite lucrative lately. But the bubble will burst someday and the flippers will learn that the game can be painful at times. >>
I agree but with the Mint's generous return policy it is a no lose situation. Those with the funds can buy the limit many times over with no risk. This will cause the Mint to change its practices and then we will all suffer.
Joe
<< <i> There is nothing wrong with flipping. And with the hot US Mint product market it has been quite lucrative lately. But the bubble will burst someday and the flippers will learn that the game can be painful at times. >>
I wholeheartedly agree…at some point the music will stop on this game of musical chairs and some will be without a seat…
But, there is a big difference with this verses the dot-com and other speculative bubbles; this game has a built in “governor” in the order limits imposed by the mint. Even with extended buying networks, it isn’t possible to continue to “let the profits ride” indefinitely as it is in most other markets. At some point, most flippers will find themselves being forced to take money off the table…it’s just the rules of the game.
So when the inevitable happens, most will still be way ahead of the game…chair or no chair!
FloridaBill
<< <i>Is this unethical? >>
It's no more unethical than Wal-Mart buying a bottle of shampoo for $.82 and reselling it for $1.19.
<< <i>You are being self indulgent. What separates those whose orders will get filled from those whose ordered will not get filled is not knowledge -- its the speed of computer keyboard. >>
The biggest hit of the last year, the 2006-W 20th Anniversary sets, took three months to sell out. I guess some people have pretty slow keyboards.
<< <i>But the bubble will burst someday and the flippers will learn that the game can be painful at times >>
Given the Mint's 30 day unconditional return policy, this seems unlikely.
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
<< <i>
<< <i>But the bubble will burst someday and the flippers will learn that the game can be painful at times >>
Given the Mint's 30 day unconditional return policy, this seems unlikely. >>
I agree, i don't think the bubble will burst unexpectantly, more like the opportunities will fade away.
Policy change at the mint will do it I think.
Maybe only returns on defective/damaged coins.
7 day return policy instead of 30.
Limit 1 coin/set per order for 30 days then open the limit.
Joe
You're right--the most disasterous possible change is a change to the return policy, and/or harsher limits.
<< <i>Flip away! >>
That's what led to my first orders with your company....
<< <i>
<< <i>If they raised the mintage, it would have decreased interest and they also probably would not have sold as many as they did today.
In other words: do you really think that 40,000 people would have loved these coins enough to shell out $430 each? Don't you think that the two-hour sellout made these issues that much more marketable? >>
Don't you think the speculators who scarffed these up today think that more than 40,000 people want these? If they thought otherwise, they would not have bought up to 10 coins each. Of course they may have miscalculated and there may be 4,000 flippers who will be trying to flip 40,000 coins to a market that only wants 20,000 coins or 10,000 coins or perhaps no coins at all--and in that case the Mint outfoxed everyone.
CG
Edited to add:
<< <i> think the Mint knows all the possible outcomes to a given program's policies >>
I think you are giving them far too much credit. >>
Will there be 40,000 homes for these coins? Well, possibly. In a way I'm betting that there are -- but what I think I will end up doing is selling in the short term to other flippers who are even more confident about that demand than I am.
<< <i>What is wrong with "flipping?" >>
nothing, nothing at all!
K S
<< <i>I just love being flippant about flipping!! >>
Thanks for the hardy laugh this morning, Bajj.
Joe
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Most collectors at heart tend to detest these flippers, as they think you should be in it for the love of the hobby, not just the profit motive....
I can say for myself, when I have taken tables at regional shows, dislike when customers step up and only ask what something is worth and how long do they have to hold it for a profit......it gets old real quick.
If those asking the questions are YN's, then I try to instill a little collecting spirit, nothing wrong with buying a few for profit -but enjoy them while you have them - learn from them - they are little reminders of our history.....
Reminds me of back in 1985 when Bruce Springsteen was coming to town. I had tried to get tickets, they sold out in hours, many (or most) to scalpers. So I contacted a scalper, met him downtown, the greasy pig would not negotiate, I paid more than double the issue price. I would imagine many collectors who actually wanted one of the first lady coins for their collection at the issue price have the same opinion about flippers.
It might be that 2 hours later, he could have sold that ticket for 4X and he may have regretted selling it to you. Nobody held a gun to your head. I'd have bought the album and spent the rest on having a good time somewhere else, if the price was too high. You got to see the show because of that greasy pig, which is what you wanted most. Would the concert have been any more enjoyable at half the price? If so, blame Springsteen, too - he was in on it.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>What's the difference between a flipper as their called and a dealer with a storefront or a webpage? >>
Either some people don't like a level playing field, or, some people can't handle change (no pun intended).
It brings a lot of buyers/sellers to the marketplace and keeps things active.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>What's the difference between a flipper as their called and a dealer with a storefront or a webpage? >>
I'd like to add, what could be more fair than putting something up for auction and having the highest bid win ??
<< <i>Nobody held a gun to your head. I'd have bought the album and spent the rest on having a good time somewhere else, if the price was too high. You got to see the show because of that greasy pig, which is what you wanted most. >>
Aw yes, those wonderful tax-evading scalpers, don't you love 'em? I should have been grateful and given him a big tip. Actually, the opportunity to see the show existed at a lower price, the greasy pig only made it more expensive. Fortunately, scalping for more than the issue price is illegal here now, curbing the rampant scalping and making tickets easier to obtain at the issue price. Illegal scalping still exists, rats will be rats, but at a much reduced level.
Many states are making scalping legal again, if the scalper pays a "license" fee to the state. But they're doing it to help the little people....