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'private' registry sets.........

anyone else annoyed at registry sets that have won the top prize year after year that are not even able to be seen? I noticed the top set for the US type set, and you cannot even click on the set, let alone see any pictures or grades. I think many would agree that Mr. Eliasberg had the most fascinating and best set of US coins of anyone to collect, and he was so humble with his collection that he allowed it to be printed it in a major magazine (LIFE, if i recall). I remember reading that after the magazine went to print, the publisher was flooded with questions about coin collecting, and how to get started.

I'm not saying the owners of these sets should give any info that may risk their security, but why is it that a person is allowed to take the top spot when others vying for the same award can't even see the grades of the coins they are competing against? Imagine taking your classic Corvette to a car show, only to have the judge award the 'best in show' to a car that is only available to the judge's eyes and hidden from the other entrants view!

I don't "get it", anyone else?

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Comments

  • SkyManSkyMan Posts: 9,493 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree with you. We should at least know what is in the top sets. There is no way that this sort of info would be a security risk.
  • DoogyDoogy Posts: 4,508
    kinda' like hearing the 'American Idols' contestants all year, waiting 'till the final episode and then having the smug Simon Cowell stand up at the last minute and arrogantly say: "we've already picked the bloody Idol, you've never seen him on this show, he is a terrific talent and you'll just have to take our word for it. see you next season!"
  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image
  • oxy8890oxy8890 Posts: 1,416


    << <i>kinda' like hearing the 'American Idols' contestants all year, waiting 'till the final episode and then having the smug Simon Cowell stand up at the last minute and arrogantly say: "we've already picked the bloody Idol, you've never seen him on this show, he is a terrific talent and you'll just have to take our word for it. see you next season!" >>



    Very True!

    image
    Best Regards,

    Rob


    "Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."

    image
  • BECOKABECOKA Posts: 16,957 ✭✭✭
    People who are in high end sets don't want potential sellers to artificially raise prices on coins that may be of interest while a set is being built.

    That said, it is really annoying especially in top sets that have little room for growing anyway.


  • << <i>People who are in high end sets don't want potential sellers to artificially raise prices on coins that may be of interest while a set is being built.

    That said, it is really annoying especially in top sets that have little room for growing anyway. >>



    Agreed. Most people that have had top sets have done exactly this. Kept them locked for fear of price gouging.
  • ebaytraderebaytrader Posts: 3,312 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>kinda' like hearing the 'American Idols' contestants all year, waiting 'till the final episode and then having the smug Simon Cowell stand up at the last minute and arrogantly say: "we've already picked the bloody Idol, you've never seen him on this show, he is a terrific talent and you'll just have to take our word for it. see you next season!" >>



    Very True!

    image >>




    Simon was talking about this guy.
  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,697 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I understand what BECOKA is writing about, but I also find it frustrating that sets can be blacked out yet "win" whatever category they are in...and I don't even have a PCGS registry set. However, if one is so concerned about having someone try to price gouge on a set, why don't those folks not list their sets until they are done? After all, they are not sharing their sets, or any other information, with the greater community while they are blacked out.
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • How about PCGS making the annual registry set winner the best published (viewable) set in each category, with an honorary mention going to the top (higher graded) set that is not?

    Cartwheel
  • sonoranmonsoonsonoranmonsoon Posts: 2,078 ✭✭
    It is up to the registry owners whether they want their sets seen or not. Your being "annoyed" because they do not feel the need to please you is irrelevent. You do what you wish with your set, and let others do what they want with theirs.
  • DoogyDoogy Posts: 4,508


    << <i>It is up to the registry owners whether they want their sets seen or not. Your being "annoyed" because they do not feel the need to please you is irrelevent. You do what you wish with your set, and let others do what they want with theirs. >>



    sure, it is certainly their choice to have a 'secret' set if PCGS allows it (and continues to), but i think i made a very valid point about the competitive nature of things. What other hobbies, competitions, etc. can someone have a secret set that is unknown to the rest of the participants, and they can be awarded first place? PCGS and NGC promotes competition in their registry sets, but it seems unfair to compete against others if you don't know what you're up against!
  • sonoranmonsoonsonoranmonsoon Posts: 2,078 ✭✭
    All sets are well known to PCGS, and can be seen by them. They do the judging, not us. As far as not knowing what you need to add to overtake a set ahead of you, it is fairly simple to figure out. Use the "what if" feature on your set. Play with it until you figure out what you need to move up.
  • DoogyDoogy Posts: 4,508


    << <i>I understand what BECOKA is writing about, but I also find it frustrating that sets can be blacked out yet "win" whatever category they are in...and I don't even have a PCGS registry set. However, if one is so concerned about having someone try to price gouge on a set, why don't those folks not list their sets until they are done? After all, they are not sharing their sets, or any other information, with the greater community while they are blacked out. >>




    thats a very valid point; if a person that has a top set that is blacked out and a non-descriptive name/title that no one can figure out their identity, then why do they "compete" anyway? ego? sense of accomplishment? If this is the case, how does it stroke their ego and sense of accomplishment to have a half finished "secret" set worming its way up to the top; wouldn't it be more of an ego boost to come out of the blue with a top 3 set than to have that secret worm sliming up from the bottom?

  • BECOKABECOKA Posts: 16,957 ✭✭✭
    Agreed, top sets that are blacked out to the public should not get best set. The point of the registry is to show off your sets. If it is not ready to show of then don't register it.
  • DoogyDoogy Posts: 4,508
    bump! based on the current population of registry sets, is this an issue?

  • I had a "conversation" with another board member about something similar today. It'd be nice to see pics of the coins of the top sets as well.
    "College men from LSU- went in dumb, come out dumb too..."
    -Randy Newmanimage
  • I believe the should be forced to show or they cant win the best. Private registries should be aloowed but not graded with the others that show.
  • garsmithgarsmith Posts: 5,894 ✭✭
    I would love to see what is in them, but smoetimes it's nice to have what you need hidden so sellers don't jack up the price because they know you need the coin to complete or upgrade a registry set.
  • DJCoinzDJCoinz Posts: 3,856
    That bugs me too...but what bugs me most is when someone has a multi-hundred thousand dollar collection in the top ranked spot with no photos whatsoever. image
    aka Dan
  • garsmithgarsmith Posts: 5,894 ✭✭
    image Those sets are meaningless without pics image
  • BECOKABECOKA Posts: 16,957 ✭✭✭
    OK so that's that, no award if it is blacked out and if there are no photos to share the collection which is the point of the registry to begin with.
  • BlindedByEgoBlindedByEgo Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>It is up to the registry owners whether they want their sets seen or not. Your being "annoyed" because they do not feel the need to please you is irrelevent. You do what you wish with your set, and let others do what they want with theirs. >>



    To me that makes no sense. Why bother registering a set, winning top honors, and make it "private"? Just seems stupid. Very stupid. Kind of like what you would expect from a serious coin geek. image

    Of course, it's their set, and they can do with their property what they will. No argument on that. They're still geeks, but they ARE geeks with rights.

    Edited for spelling.
  • DoogyDoogy Posts: 4,508


    << <i>

    << <i>It is up to the registry owners whether they want their sets seen or not. Your being "annoyed" because they do not feel the need to please you is irrelevent. You do what you wish with your set, and let others do what they want with theirs. >>



    To me that makes no sense. Why bother registering a set, winning top honors, and make it "private"? Just seems stupid. Very stupid. Kind of like what you would expect from a serious coin geek. image

    Of course, it's their set, and they can do with their property what they will. No argument on that. They're still geeks, but they ARE geeks with rights.

    Edited for spelling. >>



    to me, it is all about TRANSPARENCY. If you're gonna' hold some competition with coveted top honors, you have to know what you're competing against!


    The stage: the 2008 Beijing Olympics.

    The runners line up at the starting line what is expected to be an impressive race. Most of them look nervous, as the reported fastest runner in the world is unknown to the field (both in name and having ever raced in formal competition), and hasn't shown up to the staging area yet. Just then, the President of the Olympic Committee comes over the loudspeaker to announce:

    "the 100 meter men's final is not to be run, as we have privately witnessed the running of the world's fastest man, and will be awarding the medal in a private ceremony. thank you for coming out today."

  • I think the sets should be open. I often go to sets with imags to get an idea on grading.
  • MadMartyMadMarty Posts: 16,697 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Agreed, top sets that are blacked out to the public should not get best set. The point of the registry is to show off your sets. If it is not ready to show of then don't register it. >>



    No you're wrong, the point of the registry is the get the award!!! imageimage
    It is not exactly cheating, I prefer to consider it creative problem solving!!!

  • CoinHuskerCoinHusker Posts: 5,030 ✭✭✭
    This is another example of why the "hobby" is not growing. interest in coins is up. Sales are up. Prices are up. Everything is up, except what is good for the hobby. Self promotion, self importance, self preservation is/has taken the toll on the hobby. Examples like this again show that many people involved in coins are so because of what it does for them, not because of what they can do for the hobby. IMO
    Collecting coins, medals and currency featuring "The Sower"
  • meos1meos1 Posts: 1,135
    Simply exclude"private" collections from the judging.
    I am just throwing cheese to the rats chewing on the chains of my sanity!

    First Place Winner of the 2005 Rampage design contest!
  • have had this arguement with fellow board members before concerning closed sets ( mostly in the Morgan category) and was told about the price gouging for updates or owner did not know how to upload pics! but when you own the top set and others ranked in the top ten I think your sets are complete and you can afford someone to take and upload pics for you!image

    agree with the sentiments closed set no award!
    steve

    myCCset
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,301 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wouldn't that be like the winner of a beauty pagent wearing a full length burka?

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • Well if we're expected to accept their award based on coins sight-unseen, then at the least they should show the "sticker". image

    If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!! image

    My "Fun With 21D" Die State Collection - QX5 Pics Attached
    -----
    Proud Owner of
    2 –DAMMIT BOY!!! ® Awards
  • CoinHuskerCoinHusker Posts: 5,030 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Wouldn't that be like the winner of a beauty pagent wearing a full length burka? >>



    image
    Collecting coins, medals and currency featuring "The Sower"
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    As already mentioned, there are very valid reasons for blacking out a registry set. There are also very valid reasons for having one's coins listed in the Set Registry that have nothing to do with winning some silly little piece of paper [such as it's a nice place to keep an up to date inventory for insurance purposes]. If you think that someone is going to spend hundreds of thousands [or millions] of dollars just to win some specious award...

    Don't you guys have something more important to complain about? image
  • IGWTIGWT Posts: 4,975
    Don't you guys have something more important to complain about? image
    Why isn't the CAC registry online yet? image
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>People who are in high end sets don't want potential sellers to artificially raise prices on coins that may be of interest while a set is being built.

    That said, it is really annoying especially in top sets that have little room for growing anyway. >>



    I'd say why even start a set then, just keep it out of the registry until yer ready to bare it.
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>That bugs me too...but what bugs me most is when someone has a multi-hundred thousand dollar collection in the top ranked spot with no photos whatsoever. image >>



    Maybe cuz they bought the holder and not the coin and are ashamed of the coins or might be revealed as a not very discriminating collector. Just ask Laura about some of those high ranking sets.

    Its been said here by those that have seen them that the coins in the California sets are very nice. I'd say if one is worried about being gouged or held hostage why not just fill those spots with filler or decoy coins?
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>This is another example of why the "hobby" is not growing. interest in coins is up. Sales are up. Prices are up. Everything is up, except what is good for the hobby. Self promotion, self importance, self preservation is/has taken the toll on the hobby. Examples like this again show that many people involved in coins are so because of what it does for them, not because of what they can do for the hobby. IMO >>



    Whats so wrong with that? It takes ALL kinds to make the world and a hobby go round.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It certainly makes the top sets more mysterious.

    Imagine if every coin had a TrueView and people could vote on them? It could be like American Coin Collector Idol!


  • << <i>Maybe cuz they bought the holder and not the coin and are ashamed of the coins or might be revealed as a not very discriminating collector. >>



    Or worse they cracked out /resubmitted to sell the coin. Now they have an insert collection.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I wonder how many of the top coins are old inserts.


  • << <i>As already mentioned, there are very valid reasons for blacking out a registry set. There are also very valid reasons for having one's coins listed in the Set Registry that have nothing to do with winning some silly little piece of paper [such as it's a nice place to keep an up to date inventory for insurance purposes]. If you think that someone is going to spend hundreds of thousands [or millions] of dollars just to win some specious award...

    Don't you guys have something more important to complain about? image >>



    Uhhh...let me think...image


    Nope...

    I don't think so...image

    If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!! image

    My "Fun With 21D" Die State Collection - QX5 Pics Attached
    -----
    Proud Owner of
    2 –DAMMIT BOY!!! ® Awards
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,515 ✭✭✭
    Personally, I don't see the point of registering a set if one is not going to share it with fellow collectors. On the other hand, many of the top sets that are hidden don't have images anyway. So, who cares? I really have no interest in looking at a list of grading numbers.

    Russ, NCNE
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>As already mentioned, there are very valid reasons for blacking out a registry set. There are also very valid reasons for having one's coins listed in the Set Registry that have nothing to do with winning some silly little piece of paper [such as it's a nice place to keep an up to date inventory for insurance purposes]. If you think that someone is going to spend hundreds of thousands [or millions] of dollars just to win some specious award... >>

    If that's the case, then there should be nothing wrong with disqualifying such sets from the competition.
  • ColonialCoinUnionColonialCoinUnion Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>As already mentioned, there are very valid reasons for blacking out a registry set. There are also very valid reasons for having one's coins listed in the Set Registry that have nothing to do with winning some silly little piece of paper [such as it's a nice place to keep an up to date inventory for insurance purposes]. If you think that someone is going to spend hundreds of thousands [or millions] of dollars just to win some specious award... >>



    If that's the case, then there should be nothing wrong with disqualifying such sets from the competition. >>



    I think this makes a lot of sense.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If that's the case, then there should be nothing wrong with disqualifying such sets from the competition.

    If PCGS wanted to do this, they would have done it years ago. Like Russ says - if there's no pics, then who really cares???
  • WaterSportWaterSport Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Myth # 1 Sets are closed to protect the privacy of the Collector/Collection.

    Wrong…Most sets are well known as eventually dealers supplying the sets and collectors of like coins eventually find out who these folks are. Besides, if your that paranoid, why would you ever say you or the set exists on a public internet forum????? Besides, most show up to collect their awards at the Luncheon!

    Myth # 2 Sets are closed to keep dealers and other collectors from contacting the owner and offering coins they are missing or potential upgrades.

    Wrong…As stated above, those high end sets have less contact they would like to think they would get because the coins and grades they are after are too rare to begin with. Besides, would you not want to know there was a coin that would enhance your set? Besides, the dealer knows who you are and will find you at the next big show anyway.

    Myth # 3 Closed sets keep the competition from seeing what you are missing and outbidding you on a coin you need.

    Best excuse yet, and just that, an excuse, because many sets are complete. Prized coins in these sets are highly publicized and sought after by many high-end collectors anyway. Like it or not, your going to have competition.


    No, the real reason for closed sets has nothing to do with money or collecting coins, it has to do with EGO. Its about keeping the other guy guessing and demonstrating the fact that these folks have David Halls home number and can call him anytime. They have had tours of the grading room and probably know the graders on first name basis. The ONLY rule in effect to move a top set is to have it removed by the owners themselves. PCGS will remove a set after so many years of inactivity, but I do not think it counts on these sets. Recent added coins to the registry sets has bumped a few high end and closed/retired sets down which I must admit I was wondering how PCGS was going to handle this ‘delicate” situation. But on other threads there was also a call for time limitations or other criteria to keep the competition fresh and spread the fun around. But PCGS is not here for fun, they are here for money, and what the top dogs want, well, they get.

    WS

    Proud recipient of the coveted PCGS Forum "You Suck" Award Thursday July 19, 2007 11:33 PM and December 30th, 2011 at 8:50 PM.
  • BlindedByEgoBlindedByEgo Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>As already mentioned, there are very valid reasons for blacking out a registry set. There are also very valid reasons for having one's coins listed in the Set Registry that have nothing to do with winning some silly little piece of paper [such as it's a nice place to keep an up to date inventory for insurance purposes]. If you think that someone is going to spend hundreds of thousands [or millions] of dollars just to win some specious award...

    Don't you guys have something more important to complain about? image >>



    I daresay that anyone who can build a multi-million dollar set of coins can afford one hel!uvalotta better system for keeping and setting a value for their inventory than the registry system image

    And heck yeah, you KNOW that serious coin geeks with more money than social graces surely build sets for the ego value of the aforementioned "specious award"... Specious argument, at best.

    Closing an "award winning" registry set is antithetical to the registry system, IMO - especially as regards transparency.

    Being a Libertarian, I will of course fight to the death for their rights (under current rules) to do so, however image
  • MisterBungleMisterBungle Posts: 2,308 ✭✭✭
    "Personally, I don't see the point of registering a set if one is not going to share it with fellow collectors. On the other hand, many of the top sets that are hidden don't have images anyway. So, who cares? I really have no interest in looking at a list of grading numbers."

    -----
    I totally agree with everything Russ said here.

    If a set is private, it doesn't interest me, and if it has no
    photos, It doesn't interest me...

    ...at all.

    ~


    "America suffers today from too much pluribus and not enough unum.".....Arthur Schlesinger Jr.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Many people aren't interested in viewing top ranked sets without photos.

    Top ranked sets without photos may not be meant for those people to view.

    Is there a conflict? Or not?


  • << <i>No, the real reason for closed sets has nothing to do with money or collecting coins, it has to do with EGO. >>



    If a person is driven by ego, wouldn't he want everyone to see descriptions and photos of his treasures so he could properly bask in the associated glory?

    Who is John Galt?
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>No, the real reason for closed sets has nothing to do with money or collecting coins, it has to do with EGO. >>

    If a person is driven by ego, wouldn't he want everyone to see descriptions and photos of his treasures so he could properly bask in the associated glory? >>

    Not necessarily. He may know everyone he cares to impress. There may be no ego to be stroked from impressing the masses.

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