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How can I tell if this 180 degree rotated die Morgan is for real? (Updated 3/12/09 now in PCGS holde

moosesrmoosesr Posts: 1,966 ✭✭✭
How can I tell if this rotated die Morgan is real? It has a 180 degree rotation. I weighed it on my postal scales and it weighs .9 ounces, I don't have any more sensitive scales available. I flipped the coin and it has some ring too it. In looking at the reverse under magnification, there are some suspicious looking areas where it might have been cut out.

Thanks,
Charlie

Comments

  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,692 ✭✭✭
    the coin is definitely fake if that digi-pic is accurate.

    K S
  • moosesrmoosesr Posts: 1,966 ✭✭✭
    How can you tell it is fake?
  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,692 ✭✭✭
    compare the rev to a real coin!

    K S
  • moosesrmoosesr Posts: 1,966 ✭✭✭
    I have compared the reverse of this coin with a real coin and nothing different really jumps out at me. In some areas I could see some cracks between the denticles and rim, but I can also see some similar cracks on a real coin. Can you explain to me what you see that gives the coin away as a fake?

    Charlie
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Correct reverse type for a 1921, but the picture quality is such that I could not say it is genuine or not.
    Take it to a coin shop and ask a professional for his opinion.
    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • moosesrmoosesr Posts: 1,966 ✭✭✭
    I am getting ready to send some coins to NGC or PCGS for grading, would they check the coin for being fake if I submitted if for grading?
  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,692 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I am getting ready to send some coins to NGC or PCGS for grading, would they check the coin for being fake if I submitted if for grading? >>

    since they guarantee authenticity, they would have to. i hope i'm wrong, it's just a weird digi-pic, but the coin does'nt look right to me.

    K S
  • I cannot tell from the photo if it is real or not but I have never seen or heard of a real '21 Morgan with dies rotated 180°. A couple of years ago a '21 Morgan was reported to me with 180° rotation but it turned out to be a counterfeit, it is VERY common for counterfeit coins to have rotated dies because the US is one of the few countries to strike coins with the obverse and reverse dies inverted.

    Most of the countries where these fakes are made use medallic alignment so when they make their counterfeits they align the dies the way their home country coins are done. Any time a new date/denomination is reported to me the first thing I do is try to figure out if the coin is a manufactured fake (man made fakes) or if the coin is a counterfeit and lately most turn out to be counterfeit.
  • moosesrmoosesr Posts: 1,966 ✭✭✭
    Update: I sent this coin to ANACS without any mention of the rotation because I was sending it with a group of VAM coins and you can only have one type of grading per order. I just received the grades from ANACS and they gave it a Problem Grade (detail graded) of A5 (au55) VAM-3 designation with no mention of the rotation or the possibility of the coin being counterfeit.

    Could this mean the coin may actually be for real and not a counterfeit?

    Thanks,
    Charlie
  • Steve27Steve27 Posts: 13,267 ✭✭✭
    If they slabbed it, then they're saying it's real.
    "It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
  • CoxeCoxe Posts: 11,139
    The dies look correct for 1921. If that is a fake, it is a very good one. If real, it would be hugely desirable. That rotation is unkown for the date and would be great for any date. If fake, it would a great example of not only a good job but a date less inclined to be well counterfeited. There is a rotated die for 1921 and it is a D2 reverse (like yours) but much more modestly rotated, about 50 degrees.
    Select Rarities -- DMPLs and VAMs
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  • Wolf359Wolf359 Posts: 7,653 ✭✭✭
    Nice find Charlie! I've heard if the roation is exactly 180 degrees it adds more value.

    Despite the order limits, I'm also disappointed that ANACS either ignored the rotation or missed it.
  • moosesrmoosesr Posts: 1,966 ✭✭✭
    I am kind of slow sometimes, but I finally got around to sending this coin to PCGS for grading. I didn't say anything about the rotation, but I left it in the ANACS holder and it crossed over to PCGS genuine. image

    Since the rotation is so obvious would there be any need to pay the additional $42 to get it noted on the holder?
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,642 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I am kind of slow sometimes, but I finally got around to sending this coin to PCGS for grading. I didn't say anything about the rotation, but I left it in the ANACS holder and it crossed over to PCGS genuine. image

    Since the rotation is so obvious would there be any need to pay the additional $42 to get it noted on the holder? >>


    Call up customer service and tell them you had meant to point out the rotated reverse mint error (PCGS will call it a mint error), and that the coin is currently in a Genuine holder, but you want the rotation mentioned on the label. They'll probably tell you how to get it done, what it would cost, and if you could combine it with another order so that you're not being killed on shipping.

    Of course, since it's already in PCGS plastic as a genuine coin, I don't think it'll be worth any more just because their label says "Rotated Reverse," since a 180° rotation isn't exactly a subjective thing. It could even backfire on you and they could take a closer look at authenticity if you point out the 180° rotation, then say it's bad after seeing something they missed.
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,796 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is there any premium on a Morgan with a 180 degree rotated die ?
    A man came to the shop buying Morgans for his collection. After a while he said he had one coin in his album that was "flipped". I determined it was a die rotation. That led me to here today to search.
    IIRC this gentleman's was 1882. and my hope is he brings it in some time. Would gladly photograph and post here.


    Now before anyone jumps on me for bringing up an old thread, let there be no mistaking the reason why.
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,118 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The rotation is obvious to anyone handling the coin. Any premium for it can still be had without a label pointing out the obvious.

    The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.

  • SonorandesertratSonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Any U.S. coin with a reverse in the medal orientation will sell for some sort of premium. There are lots of Morgan dollar collectors, so a significant error piece will command a big premium.
    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

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  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That would be a great find....not so much for a premium, just because of the unique nature....Cheers, RickO

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