PCGS, NGC Coin Grading Scam Alert (on CMI gold and silver site)
fc
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would anyone care to read this and comment on it?
link to http://www.cmi-gold-silver.com/PCGS-NGC-coins-grading-services.html
Now, though, the grading services are part and parcel to the promotion of bullion coins, which has become a problem not so much for coin collectors but new investors who, wanting only to invest in gold coins, sadly fall victims to telemarketer stories. PCGS and NGC helped stamp out one unscrupulous practice but are implicit in another.
Because slabbed coins are so widely received, the slabbing of modern coins lends validity to them that they do not deserve, and that is a shame. The services are tremendous assets to coin collecting. They should have never started grading modern bullion coins.
link to http://www.cmi-gold-silver.com/PCGS-NGC-coins-grading-services.html
Now, though, the grading services are part and parcel to the promotion of bullion coins, which has become a problem not so much for coin collectors but new investors who, wanting only to invest in gold coins, sadly fall victims to telemarketer stories. PCGS and NGC helped stamp out one unscrupulous practice but are implicit in another.
Because slabbed coins are so widely received, the slabbing of modern coins lends validity to them that they do not deserve, and that is a shame. The services are tremendous assets to coin collecting. They should have never started grading modern bullion coins.
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Comments
Personally, I wouldn't do business with that firm, on the basis of their harshly worded article. If someone asked if they should do business with that firm, I would vote no. The article does little to educate the average collector and does a lot that will scare them. Thumbs down on the article, thumbs down on the firm. Others are welcome to other opinions.
The demand for graded bullion coins drives the market , not the telemarketers.
Of course, TPGs net-grade some problem classic coins, giving those coins additional legitimacy that may or may not be warranted.
As for their argument that AGEs and ASEs shouldn't be slabbed because they didn't circulate, there are large numbers of Morgans and Saints never circulated leading to may MS "widget" specimens. Should those coins also be unworthy of the TPGs?
but as the Chinese and others are faking the slabs and copyrights,
that aspect too may come into question.
In addition, I agree with the OP. How did we ever consider BULLION COINS in the mix ?
Who collects them by "GRADE or for a registry set" ? But then again... we are all collectors of sorts. Live and let live.
HE>I
<< <i>I find very little to disagree with in the article. I do believe it was written as an educational piece that all bullion collectors should read... >>
I agree with much of what is in the article, but it paints with a broad brush. Certainly one cannot argue that a 2006 RP or a 1995 W SAE carry no premium over bullion value. Modern bullion is highly collectable in its' own right and cannot, with or without TPGs, be represented otherwise.
Edited for punctuation
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>I read the article, but I am not so impressed by it. It seems to give an "attaboy" to the TPGs for creating a "trustworthy market" and in the same breath it fosters doubt and plants seeds of disdain for a company that left their roots to adapt to a changing market and a company that has to change with the market to keep up in it. I found that the author sort of throws a jab , left hook, uppercut and right cross at the TPGs for doing what collectors and dealers ask of them.
In addition, I agree with the OP. How did we ever consider BULLION COINS in the mix ?
Who collects them by "GRADE or for a registry set" ? But then again... we are all collectors of sorts. Live and let live. >>
There are a bunch of folks that collect them for registry sets , have a look at pcgs registry site. The only coins with more registry sets than the bullion coins are Dollars, proof sets ,and mint sets .
There is a HUGE collector base for these issues
i basically agree with the article and with fatman's sentiment...
but then joflax comes out with some very good points.
so i think, gee, could i live without pcgs/ngc when it comes to buying
half eagles (the way i do, online) and the conclusion is sadly no.
but could i do without a tpg when buying bullion... especially the
handful of dates that are NOT collectable above and beyond the norm,
and the answer is yes.. i could live without the TPGs.
every coin is bright uncirculated example. if i wanted plat i would
go a trust worthy bullion dealer or the mint themselves.
Now suddenly the chinese can make em out of lead and we need some other way to authenticate them and the tpgs do a great job
<< <i>I find very little to disagree with in the article. I do believe it was written as an educational piece that all bullion collectors should read. I am sure CMI gets hundreds of people a day calling wanting to sell their slabbed bullion at prices a bullion company can only laugh at. No different than the dealer that has to inform the SATH customer that their slabbed silver eagles or Morgan Dollars are worth only 30 to 40 cents on the dollar to what they paid. >>
Good idea to mention Morgans. More has been lost on overpriced, overhyped Morgans than all the moderns ever minted, times 100. Should CMI indict the grading companies for slabbing Morgans because telemarketers sometimes sell slabbed ones for ridiculously high prices? In my opinion, that is why the article is close to useless. Most of the scams have little to do with moderns or slabs, and everything to do with telemarketers and their prey. A fool will still be a fool. If a foolish person is willing to pay a ridiculously high price, it doesn't matter what kind of holder it is in, or what kind of coin it is.
The telemarketers might be selling a "100 year old silver dollar" raw for $75 per coin or a no-name slabbed PF70 for PCGS guide prices, it doesn't make much difference if the buyer is willing to buy the load of baloney.
I do find it discouraging that I can't find any prices on the CMI site in a few minutes of looking. I would be happier if they indicated prices like many other bullion dealers do, at least quote something like spot +$20, or spot +3% or whatever.
/edit typos
<< <i>Remember that CMI is writing to investors, not collectors. I have no problem with collectors collecting what they like. Heck, I have a complete set of PCGS Silver Eagles because I happen to like the design and the low cost makes for a fun set. But there are hundreds of thousands of these slabbed bullion coins in the hands of non collectors that believe the slab adds value, and for the most part they do not. There are more people getting hurt with these slabs than there are real collectors who are getting enjoyment. That does not make the TPGs bad companies. They are acting with a profit motive and reacting to this market demand. But the article in question is spot on when one realizes who the audience is. >>
Great points here. Seems like the only solution would be for the TPG to creat a collectors slab and a different slab for the investor.
It is natural in a free market to want to maximize returns. In an unregulated market, this leave the door open for the telemarketers to shade the truth. It's been done for years, and will probably continue... Both within the law and outside of it. Regardless, as Jerry states so eloquently, the article is pretty much self-serving. It's just a different flavor of Kool-Aide.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
This is not necessarily my opinion, just a thought that popped up.
<< <i>Remember that CMI is writing to investors, not collectors. I have no problem with collectors collecting what they like. Heck, I have a complete set of PCGS Silver Eagles because I happen to like the design and the low cost makes for a fun set. But there are hundreds of thousands of these slabbed bullion coins in the hands of non collectors that believe the slab adds value, and for the most part they do not. There are more people getting hurt with these slabs than there are real collectors who are getting enjoyment. That does not make the TPGs bad companies. They are acting with a profit motive and reacting to this market demand. But the article in question is spot on when one realizes who the audience is. >>
You are welcome to your opinion. I disagree. Very few slabs are going to the investor market, except the ones being sold by telemarketers. The article pokes fun at Ebay, saying it is not the real world. The Ebay world is a lot more real than the world of the typical coin investor. Like I said in my first response, the article does a lot to scare folks, and little to educate. The typical coin investor is often on the lowest rung of the numismatic food chain. The average collector usually knows ten times as much about coins, about grading and pricing than the typical investor. I would go so far as to say that the typical Ebay purchaser of a modern bullion coin in a PCGS or NGC slab, probably knows a lot more about coins, about pricing and grading, than the average CMI client.
I don't know anything about CMI except what I have read via the link, and a few minutes exploring their website. Again, on the basis of the harshly worded article (and the fact that they don't post easy to find prices on their site), I would not do business with them. If someone asked me what I thought about the firm, again, I would give them the thumbs down and advise the person to keep shopping. Again, if it quacks like a duck, it is likely to be a duck.
/edit typos again
.....Now, though, the grading services are part and parcel to the promotion of bullion coins, which has become a problem not so much for coin collectors but new investors who, wanting only to invest in gold coins, sadly fall victims to telemarketer stories. PCGS and NGC helped stamp out one unscrupulous practice but are implicit in another.
Because slabbed coins are so widely received, the slabbing of modern coins lends validity to them that they do not deserve, and that is a shame. The services are tremendous assets to coin collecting. They should have never started grading modern bullion coins.
To say that NGC and PCGS are implicit is to say they are manipulating this market. I contend it's the dealers and telemarketers doing all the manipulating here. Some people are mad cuz the price guide doesn't reflect actual market prices. I say HOGWASH... Of course, I still wonder why people are playing the registry game with bullion, but to each their own.
HE>I
Sad that electrons died making that article.
<< <i>There are 2292 registry sets in bullion coins on PCGS alone, compared to 604 sets in gold which includes $1 $2.5 $5 $10 $20 classic sets. These are not bullion investors >>
And I am one of them. But lets get real here. This slabbing of bullion has become huge business. And when it comes to bullion investing, a slab holds minimal value if any. NGC and PCGS have slabbed 2213253 silver eagles to date. That represents about 1000 per registry set. Massive quantities of these slabs are ending up in uninformed investor hands who are paying for added value that simply does not exist in the bullion market. You will also find a good article on the CMI website about the "First Strike" slabs.
Try putting together a set of gold eagles in ms69....its not as easy as you think. There are only 171 ms69 95 $10 and 360 1990 $25s and you will very rarely see them available.
I happen to agree about the first strike designation , but that is all that we can hang on the TPGs at the moment , its a stupid gimmick....I guess this thread will go poof now