Safe Deposit Box Question: If thieves break into a bank vault and..................

SanctionII

............. clean out the contents of all safe deposit boxes (including yours, which contains your coin collection worth $100K, with you having all coins slabbed by PCGS or NCG, with you having complete paperwork showing when you acquired the coins and what you paid for them, with you having a written, phoographic, video and computerized inventory of them and three independent witnesses who are nuns and who can verify under oath that all of the coins on the inventory were located your safe deposit box the day before the break in and theft), do you have any recourse against the bank for your loss? BTW, an employee of the bank was the inside contact of the thieves who passed along information that allowed the thieves to pull off the robbery.

In other words does the bank have any responsibility to its safe deposit box customers (from whom they receive rental income) for the safety of the customer's personal property?

I seem to recall from law school a concept of "bailment", with a "bailor" and bailee", dealing with one person transferring possession of his property to another person who agrees to hold and maintain custody of same on behalf of the owner.

Any information on this issue would be appreciated.

compromonedas

I have the same question. To answer your question I was told by My bank officer, that the bank is not responsable for the content of the box in case of a robbery, I think this is part because they dont know what is in your box.
Keith

UtahCoin

As I understand it from the banker in our family, you're out of luck. How would you prove you had $250K in coins in there?

TomB

You have no insurance coverage extended to you from the bank for any belongings in your safe deposit box. If you would like to be insured for such loss you would need to purchase outside insurance such as through the ANA or another firm.

tincup

The bank is not responsible for what is inside of your safety deposit box. They are merely providing a 'rental' service..... for a fee, you get a box inside of their bank vault, etc. They are not in the insurance business or the protection/guarantee of your assets business.

HOWEVER.... nothing is ever black and white. It is conceivable that you could bring suit against the bank to prove negligence, etc.... (and thus proving the bank violated the reasonable trust implied by the rental contract, etc).... if you can prevail with that, perhaps you can have a chance of some recourse. But I would say that the chance is small.

SkyMan

Sanction, you planning on having your bank knocked off? While bank robberies are not uncommon, I wonder how many bank robberies that include safe deposit box theft occur in the USA in a decade time span. I would doubt very many. I suspect that you have a much higher risk of having a fairly nasty personal injury via a car accident during your lifetime than having your safe deposit box broken into.

StrikeOutXXX

<< <i>While bank robberies are not uncommon, I wonder how many bank robberies that include safe deposit box theft occur in the USA in a decade time span. I would doubt very many. I suspect that you have a much higher risk of having a fairly nasty personal injury via a car accident during your lifetime than having your safe deposit box broken into. >>



I found stats for 2000 and 2001. More bank robberies than I thought. They only list the type by %, but safe deposit boxes/vault was listed at 1%, so that's 70-80 a year in the US.
Type of Institution Number of Robberies 2000 Number of Robberies 2001 % Change
Commercial Banks 6255 7390 +18
Mutual Savings Banks 184 203 +10
Savings & Loans 204 316 +55
Credit Unions 444 538 +21
Armored Carrier Companies 40 49 +23
TOTAL 7127 8496 +19

ModernCrapNut

I would think there is more a chance of a bank employee stealing from safety deposit boxes compared to losses by robbery. How that might change the bank's liability, I have no idea.

Bochiman

<< <i>............. clean out the contents of all safe deposit boxes (including yours, which contains your coin collection worth $100K, with you having all coins slabbed by PCGS or NCG, with you having complete paperwork showing when you acquired the coins and what you paid for them, with you having a written, phoographic, video and computerized inventory of them and three independent witnesses who are nuns and who can verify under oath that all of the coins on the inventory were located your safe deposit box the day before the break in and theft), do you have any recourse against the bank for your loss? BTW, an employee of the bank was the inside contact of the thieves who passed along information that allowed the thieves to pull off the robbery.

In other words does the bank have any responsibility to its safe deposit box customers (from whom they receive rental income) for the safety of the customer's personal property?

I seem to recall from law school a concept of "bailment", with a "bailor" and bailee", dealing with one person transferring possession of his property to another person who agrees to hold and maintain custody of same on behalf of the owner.

Any information on this issue would be appreciated. >>




I suggest talking to a lawyer

richardshipp

Having fairly recently acquired a SDB I actually took the time to read the agreement.

At least for the Bank I deal with (one of the big boys); their contract clearly states that they do not insure your box against anything. When I asked the bank employee about it, the answer was something along the lines of .............

It is in the vault of the bank, you really think something might happen? (scoff)


Honestly, I don't worry so much about it while actually in the box. I worry more about the trip to and from the box. If something ever did happen though; there'd be one heck of a shootout.

TwoSides2aCoin

That's entirely too much thinking for a Friday ... but I like you SanctionII.

I was more concerned with the beanie babies being in the hands of a stranger.

RNCHSN

I'm with Ron on this one. Call a lawyer.

Consider that if it was an inside job and one of the guys was a bank employee, you might have a case of "non-performance" in that the bank didn't provide a secure vault.

mrearlygold

Calling an insurance agent and getting that stuff covered in the first place would probably be a lot better bet than calling a lawyer afterwards

Scavenger

About the only way to clean out the safety deposit boxes would be from tunneling underneath the bank and coming up through the floor over a holiday weekend. This has been accomplished a couple of times and the payoff must have been overwhelming. The time restraints limit access to the deposit boxes in a routine robbery.

tmot99

I'm not sure the robber could get into the boxes. They need the key from you to open. In the case of an abandonded box, I think they need a locksmith to pull the lock out.

thezookrew

I worked at a credit union that rented safe deposit boxes and as long as the bank or credit union followed all safety protocols (dual control of keys, no unauthorized access, proper record keeping, etc) they are not liable for the theft of your box contents (that would have to be done through your homeowner's insurance). HOWEVER, if you can show that there was ANY negligence on the part of the bank or credit union, all bets are off and they can be liable for anything you say is in the box.

Elcontador

As I see it, the primary way you can be at risk for contents of a safety deposit box is an act of God, ie., something along the lines of Hurricane Katrina.

Bank emplyees do not have access to these boxes; there are two keys required to open a box, and they only have one of them. This is why after a box renter fails to pay, leaves town, etc., the box has to be drilled to be opened. There are strict procedures to be followed before such box can be drilled, or else the bank can be sued for violating its fiduciary duty to the boxholder.

A thief wants to get into & out of the bank ASAP. In theory, the tunneling idea is possible, but they would also have to neutralize the elaborate security system. My bank is a free-standing building with the closest building being a gas station across a major thoroughfare and a house a good 100 plus yards away. Looking at the big picture, personally, I wouldn't bother with the insurance. Just be sure you aren't being followed if you take some coins from the vault home.

SanctionII

Thanks for the responses.

As for those who suggested talking to a lawyer, I will pass. Talking to lawyers is a pain, you can never understand what they are saying and they bill you by the word (or letter). I should know, since I am one and people have said they do not understand what I am saying, even if I talk slowly and without the legal mumbo jumbo

Perhaps my parents dropped me on the kitchen floor when I was a baby and I hurt my brain

LindeDad

[ Q]BTW, an employee of the bank was the inside contact of the thieves who passed along information that allowed the thieves to pull off the robbery. >>



Would not this bring in Banks insurance company to provide recourse.

ziggy29

The short answer is: The bank is not liable for your loss. You aren't paying them insurance premiums and you can't easily prove the worth of the contents to them.

The longer answer is: There are few absolutes. If the bank can be shown to have taken insufficient security precautions -- assuming there is a certain level of reasonable expectation that wasn't met -- the bank could bear some liability in court, at least in theory.

General case, though? Nope. But at least insurance for coins in a vault is usually cheaper (at least for large collections; for smaller collections below about $25-50K there's often just one-rate-fits-all).

TrustNo1

Did anyone see "Inside Man" ?

cladking

Some of my contracts clearly say that the bank is responsible for losses caused
by their negligence. I doubt this would include criminal acts by their employees
unless there was negligence involved such as having both keys in the bank's pos-
sion, or forgetting to lock the doors before the holiday.

DesertRat

You would have to be able to prove what you had in the box which is kind of difficult since you open and close the box in private and there are no inventories taken by the bank. I could visit a bank daily and sign into and out of my SD box daily but that doesn't prove I have anything in the box worth $1.00 much less $100,000. Read the SDB rental agreement you signed and it will probably contain language pertaining to the bank not being liable for any contents.


I seem to recall from law school a concept of "bailment", with a "bailor" and bailee", dealing with one person transferring possession of his property to another person who agrees to hold and maintain custody of same on behalf of the owner

This would relate to a CCC situation. Care Custody and Control. An example of this would be a valet parking garage where they hand you a ticket that says READ THIS SEVERELY LIMITS OUR LIABILITY when in fact it does no such thing. The car is in their care (their lot), their custody (again, their lot) and their control (they have the keys). If it is damaged or stolen or burglarized you have a valid claim.

In the safety deposit box, the box is in the banks care and custody but not in their control as it takes two keys to open and they are not aware of what you put into the box.

ellewood

It takes two keys to get into my SDB. The bank has one and I have the ONLY copy of the other. If I lose my keys, the locks have to be drilled out and replaced...simple as that. Not even a robber could open up my deposit box even if he did get into the vault where it is located.

Bank robbery is the least of my worries. Fire on the other hand...is a different story. Then all my little plastic melts around my wonderful coins...never to be appreciated again.

planetsteve

I had to have my lock changed on my SDB because it was getting sticky and wouldn't open reliably. The man from Diebold showed up with an ordinary cordless drill.

Luckily, he was able to open my box with a few good taps with a hammer and a visegrips to turn my key. I had the lock changed so that only one key is required to open it and I hold both copies, which he cut onsite. This arrangement makes things much, much faster for me and easier for everyone.

Today I was in and out in three minutes, and I left the unattended, open vault through a side door a few yards away. I come away from this believing that someone with the knowhow and determination might not have much difficulty with stealing from SDBs. Given the risk of fire that has already been mentioned, it seems that there's no special sanctity about the bank. Safer than my home? Sure. So safe that I don't need insurance? Uh, no. (I left a message for the ANA's insurer today.)

VamGuy

I'll strongly urge you to take a moment and read the "safebox regulations" paperwork you received.

In part, mine reads like this:

Important Notice: (1) Any claims of loss or damage may not exceed $10,000 as more thoroughly described below...


And then it really gets interesting:

3. The bank shall exercise ordinay care to guard the box but beyond this shall not be liable or responsible for and does not make any representations or warranties regarding the safety of the contents of any box. The loss or alleged loss of the contents of a box or any part thereof shall not be evidence that the box has been opened by other than the Renter or Renter's authorized agent. IF THE RENTER DESIRES INSURANCE PROTECTION FOR THE CONTENTS OF THE BOX, IT IS SUGGESTED THAT THE RENTER CONTACT AN INSURANCE COMPANY. NO INSURANCE IS PROVIDED ON RENTER'S BOX CONTENTS BY THE BANK AND THE BOX CONTENTS ARE NOT INSURED BY THE FDIC. BANK SHALL HAVE NO LIABILITY WHATSOEVER FOR ANY LOST MONEY, COIN OR CURRENCY. RENTER AGREES AND REPRESENTS THAT THE REPLACEMENT OR LOSS VALUE OF THE CONTENTS OF THE BOX SHALL AT NO TIME DURING THE LEASE EXCEED $10,000.

8. The box is leased solely for the purpose of keeping securities, jewelry, valuable personal papers and precious non-currency metals, and the Renter agrees not to use the box to store money, coin, or currency or to store any property of a liquid, corrosive, pressurized, hazardous, explosive, dangerous, illegal, perishable, and/or offensive nature, including but not limited to any firearm, weapon, acid, illegal drug, contraband or evidence of any crime...

...Bank may hold or turn over to any law enforcement or other governmental agency any object, substance or material which Bank believes, in its sole discretion, to be prohibited by this regulation and shall bear no liability for doing so, even if it later discovered that such object, substance or material was not prohibited by this regulation.

So on the off chance that something happens, coins are not covered. And on the off chance I can get the coins covered, limit of liability is only $10k.

READ YOUR CONTRACT!!!

FullStepJeffs

And that's the reason I bought my own safe... with a walkin door that weighs probably 400 pounds... good luck finding it...

it's kind of interesting that if a thief wanted to bust into safety deposit boxes all they'd have to do is go to the bank... and of course, have someone on the inside.

Steve

GRANDAM

Nope, you're screwed!!!!!

I use to have my coins in a bank box that was located in the basement of the bank. Then I got to thinking what if the bank caught on fire everything would be flooded. Needless to say I moved to another bank ABOVE ground! Don't believe the WATERTIGHT story!!!!! If a bank did burn,,,,, heat, stress, don't think the seal would hold up!

GrandAm

TwoSides2aCoin

Today I put all my brown wheaties in the safe deposit box and the good coins in the laundry basket by the washing machine.