Is it time for a fourth-party Letter of Concurrence service?

SCDHunter

Since I have been a member here, there has been considerable discussion about Third Party Graded (TPG) coins that are either overgraded or problematic in some way, that is detrimental to our hobby.

Would it be beneficial to start an independent service that would issue a “Letter of Concurrence (LOC)” for a given coin? This LOC would uniquely identify the TPG graded item and provide an opinion that the coin is properly graded, or note any obvious deviations from the proper grade.

A future buyer would be able to look up the original TPG cert number in a database to see if a LOC has been issued for that coin.

I would think a company like Legend, with their vast experience and capability to spot troublesome coins, would be in a position to launch this type of adventure.

Any thoughts?

messydesk

Rick Snow has been doing this for quite some time for FE and Indian cents. He hangs out here now and then and is likely to chime in.

coinkat

Interesting concept... it would seem that letters could be forged but perhaps there is a way of registering the slab number, issuing a cert number for the letter, entering that in a data base that folks would have acess to at a website.

ricko

Another step between TPG's and the ultimate grading by computers.... It will come... in the meantime, we may struggle with 4th, 5th and 6th party confirmations. This is why the computer grading solution is inevitable.... each level now introduces cost, each crackout/resubmission costs.. and just imagine the veritable landslide of profit to be achieved when the computer graded coins become 'required' for true value to be realized. It will replace the now mandatory slab... Oh the money to be made - and, as we all know, where there is money to be made, someone will satisfy the need. Cheers, RickO

291fifth

Perhaps the real solution is to return to "authentication only." This is what ANACS was in the early 70's.

Why pay for yet another opinion that most won't accept?

Writersblock

<< <i>Perhaps the real solution is to return to "authentication only." This is what ANACS was in the early 70's. >>


I'd go for that.

blueifalcon

Authentication only sounds good to me.

MrEureka

Depending on the nature of the dealer-client relationship, dealers already essentially provide unwritten "LOC"s to their clients. I see the above proposal (with a single LOC issuer) as a step in the wrong direction.

On the other hand, a dealer offering written (and, for the purpose of buybacks, binding) LOCs to his clients could potentially charge higher prices. This is not necessarily a bad thing, as those premium selling prices would enable him to deliver better coins.

Longacre

<< <i>

<< <i>Perhaps the real solution is to return to "authentication only." This is what ANACS was in the early 70's. >>


I'd go for that. >>




Me too.

DHeath

Perhaps the real solution is to return to "authentication only." This is what ANACS was in the early 70's.

Lots of folks use the existing holders that way. Obviously, if you weight strike more than luster, or lack of marks more than die state, etc, you might like certain coins commercially graded MS64 better than others graded MS66. That doesn't mean the TPGs are wrong, and it doesn't mean the coins are misgraded. It also doesn't mean we'll ever agree about how a coin should be priced. You could get three letters and a holder, and if I didn't like the coin, I'd pass. Other people's "proper grade" is meaningless. JMO

MrEureka

Perhaps the real solution is to return to "authentication only."

Why would a grading company choose to stop grading coins? Wouldn't that cost them revenue?

Or are you suggesting that a new "authentication-only" TPG should be formed to challenge the current leaders? If so, what would be their competitive advantages?

Frankcoins

<< <i>yet another opinion that most won't accept? >>




I think "most" accept the opinions of the top 2 services, at least where "show me the money" occurs.

291fifth

<< <i>

<< <i>yet another opinion that most won't accept? >>




I think "most" accept the opinions of the top 2 services, at least where "show me the money" occurs. >>



If that is the case, then why is there so much dead merchandise cluttering auctions and dealer bourse tables these days?

RedTiger

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>yet another opinion that most won't accept? >>




I think "most" accept the opinions of the top 2 services, at least where "show me the money" occurs. >>



If that is the case, then why is there so much dead merchandise cluttering auctions and dealer bourse tables these days? >>



Why? Because ownership adds a point, and many sellers want premium money for their average or below average for the grade coins. Virtually no one believes or will admit that their coin is a blue sheet dog when it is time to sell. The objective truth is that a certain percentage of coins are low end for the stated grade.

Overall the grading services do a good job. What is occuring is a natural phenomenom. This is a natural part of the process where the nicest coins get picked out early in the cycle and taken out of the loop. Without new fresh coins that have been off the market for a long while, the natural process is that with each turn of inventory, the overall level of quality of remaining inventory goes down.

/edit to add: Authentication only is not a viable business plan. It takes as much or more time to authenticate as it does to grade and authenticate. Costs would be about the same, so who would submit to such a service if the cost is the same or perhaps higher because of low volumes? The services make their most of their money on bulk orders. No one will submit these kind of orders to an authentication service. So the cost per coin might actually be higher, because the over head to get started will be the same as a grading service. The revenue will be lower.

As for a fourth party, as others have stated Rick Snow has been doing this for years with his Eagle Eye stickers on Indian cents. These coins do usually trade for more than coins without the label, so it sort of works.

CaptHenway

I am reminded of an episode of "M*A*S*H" wherein Frank Burns asks a Korean family for their papers, is shown the requested documents, and then asks the family "Do you have any papers to prove that these are your papers?"
TD

RareBronzeCollector

<< <i>Perhaps the real solution is to return to "authentication only." This is what ANACS was in the early 70's.

Why pay for yet another opinion that most won't accept? >>




One view that I have is that I wouldn't have any objection if the TPG's (the MAJOR ones) NEVER placed a grade on a slab.... Only that they certify that the coin is GENUINE (with or without flaws), and attribute any necessary varieties involved...

RareBronzeCollector

<< <i>I am reminded of an episode of "M*A*S*H" wherein Frank Burns asks a Korean family for their papers, is shown the requested documents, and then asks the family "Do you have any papers to prove that these are your papers?"
TD >>




CLASSIC!!!!!

Aegis3

<< <i>Perhaps the real solution is to return to "authentication only."

Why would a grading company choose to stop grading coins? Wouldn't that cost them revenue?

Or are you suggesting that a new "authentication-only" TPG should be formed to challenge the current leaders? If so, what would be their competitive advantages? >>



An authentication-only company would be dead in the water if it tried to start up when there are grading companies still around. I consider that an unfortunate fact.

SCDHunter

<< <i>Since I have been a member here, there has been considerable discussion about Third Party Graded (TPG) coins that are either overgraded or problematic in some way, that is detrimental to our hobby.

Would it be beneficial to start an independent service that would issue a “Letter of Concurrence (LOC)” for a given coin? This LOC would uniquely identify the TPG graded item and provide an opinion that the coin is properly graded, or note any obvious deviations from the proper grade.

A future buyer would be able to look up the original TPG cert number in a database to see if a LOC has been issued for that coin.

I would think a company like Legend, with their vast experience and capability to spot troublesome coins, would be in a position to launch this type of adventure.

Any thoughts? >>



I guess "CAC" is close enough!

291fifth

Collectors just need to learn how to grade and spot problems.

al410

Authentication only would take us back to where when your buying it is a MS64 but when your selling it is a MS61. The top 3 services miss coins some times and there looking at many many coins but all and all I think they do a great service for collectors. There comes a time when we all have to compare and research coins we are buying and accept some responsibilty for our purchases. I like the TPG grading services it gives me a great starting place when looking at a coin.

AL

barbershopper

<< <i>Another step between TPG's and the ultimate grading by computers.... It will come... in the meantime, we may struggle with 4th, 5th and 6th party confirmations. This is why the computer grading solution is inevitable.... each level now introduces cost, each crackout/resubmission costs.. and just imagine the veritable landslide of profit to be achieved when the computer graded coins become 'required' for true value to be realized. It will replace the now mandatory slab... Oh the money to be made - and, as we all know, where there is money to be made, someone will satisfy the need. Cheers, RickO >>



I don't think computers will ever replace visual in-hand grading.
How many members of this forum would accept a coin graded by photographs only?
My guess is "not many". I know I wouldn't regardless of what the ebay sellers say.
Why do I ask this? Simply because a computer only sees a picture and therefore cannot make the judgments
required to evaluate and place a meaningful grade on a coin IMHO.

I've established a file of PCGS & NGC graded coins in the VF-AU categories with 4 or more pics of each grade.
In trying to use this to place a proper grade on a circulated coin, I find I usually have problems matching
the coin to a single grade. Sometimes I find wear on my coin that matches 3 or 4 TPG grades.
Thus my conclusion; the photos only show one aspect of a coin, namely wear.
I simply have to choose the one in the middle and hope the other factors match the given grade.
That's not good enough but at least it'll be close and close doesn't count except in horseshoes.

JT

ambro51

It will no doubt continue until there will be a "coin jury" of 12 collectors and TPG board members...presided over by a barrister wig wearing Davey Hall. They well render their opinion, no doubt in Latin (or French) and it will be duly written down with a qoose quill pen and oak gall ink, in a large hand made registration tome.

ocon4008

What ever became of the new POS service? I thought that had real staying power.

Bear

Every 2nd, 3rd and 4th party grading is an opinion.

What counts is whether the collector agrees with the

opinion or not. For me, it is my opinion that matters. I

rely on third part grading to spot phoney coins and to give

a general grade. I then take the coin from there and evaluate

the coin by my own standards and either buy or pass.

Edscoin

SCDHunter, I guess you were just ahead of your time.