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Any word from the Manley/Kagin hearing?

CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 34,032 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
Anybody sitting in the hearing room, text messaging out what's going on?
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.

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    LongacreLongacre Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
    I keep refreshing CNN.com, but there is no word. Is Michigan attending the hearing?
    Always took candy from strangers
    Didn't wanna get me no trade
    Never want to be like papa
    Working for the boss every night and day
    --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 34,032 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Check the Letters to the Editor in NN........
    Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
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    MarkMark Posts: 3,640 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm sending this thread back to the top because I, too, am interested.
    Mark


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    ebaytraderebaytrader Posts: 3,312 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I keep refreshing CNN.com, but there is no word. Is Michigan attending the hearing? >>




    Hell, CNN is refusing to cover the massive violent anti-Chavez protests all over Venezuela.
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    IGWTIGWT Posts: 4,975 ✭
    Any truth to the rumor that they convened the hearing in Manley's garage?
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    ebaytraderebaytrader Posts: 3,312 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Any truth to the rumor that they convened the hearing in Manley's garage? >>



    No way. It's filled to the ceiling with gold door stops.
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    LongacreLongacre Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Any truth to the rumor that they convened the hearing in Manley's garage? >>





    I heard Judge Ito is presiding.
    Always took candy from strangers
    Didn't wanna get me no trade
    Never want to be like papa
    Working for the boss every night and day
    --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
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    roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,374 ✭✭✭✭✭
    OJ is still looking for the other missing gold bar.

    roadrunner
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
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    MarkMark Posts: 3,640 ✭✭✭✭✭
    OK, let's give this thread another chance to get a reply from some non-comedian. (Though I actually thought the comments, especially about Manley's garage, to be quite amusing.)
    Mark


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    LongacreLongacre Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
    Wasn't the hearing yesterday? Does anyone know the time period that a decision has to be rendered? I assume that it is not immediate. Maybe two weeks or so? Also, does anyone know if there is a written opinion with a full analysis of the reasoning for the decision, or is there just a decision as to who "won"? I am guessing the rules of procedure are posted somewhere, but I have not looked.
    Always took candy from strangers
    Didn't wanna get me no trade
    Never want to be like papa
    Working for the boss every night and day
    --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 34,032 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ttt
    Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
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    ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,669 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Wasn't the hearing yesterday? Does anyone know the time period that a decision has to be rendered? I assume that it is not immediate. Maybe two weeks or so? Also, does anyone know if there is a written opinion with a full analysis of the reasoning for the decision, or is there just a decision as to who "won"? I am guessing the rules of procedure are posted somewhere, but I have not looked. >>

    Cipoletti was on record as hoping to have a decision today (30th) or tomorrow (31st)...
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    mrearlygoldmrearlygold Posts: 17,858 ✭✭✭

    Coin's for sale/trade.


    Tom Pilitowski
    US Rare Coin Investments
    800-624-1870

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    ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,669 ✭✭✭
    Still nothing about this? Is everyone afraid to speak, or was there just no one at the public hearing?
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    mrdqmrdq Posts: 1,186 ✭✭✭
    just returning from almost year off can someone PM me what this is about please?

    --------T O M---------

    -------------------------
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    topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Maybe tomorrow.

    link
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    GoldenEyeNumismaticsGoldenEyeNumismatics Posts: 13,187 ✭✭✭
    .
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    SanctionIISanctionII Posts: 13,088 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Aggressive lawyers?

    Who would have thunk it.
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    ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,669 ✭✭✭


    << <i>This is what I've heard:

    Manley's lawyer(s) are being very aggresive. At this point it could go either way >>

    Interesting. They must have been able to poke holes in Kagin's response if this is true, because if Kagin's response to Manley's complaint was factual and truthful, Manley has no case.
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    tmot99tmot99 Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>This is what I've heard:

    Manley's lawyer(s) are being very aggresive. At this point it could go either way >>

    Interesting. They must have been able to poke holes in Kagin's response if this is true, because if Kagin's response to Manley's complaint was factual and truthful, Manley has no case. >>



    Which might explain why the lawyers are agressive?
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    FatManFatMan Posts: 8,977 ✭


    << <i>

    << <i>This is what I've heard:

    Manley's lawyer(s) are being very aggresive. At this point it could go either way >>

    Interesting. They must have been able to poke holes in Kagin's response if this is true, because if Kagin's response to Manley's complaint was factual and truthful, Manley has no case. >>

    After reading Kagin's response this seemed to be a slam dunk.

    What bothers me most about this whole case is that there has been no stink about Mark Striley buying the ingot for under melt. He is the one who should be sent to the ANA gallows IMO.image
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    NewmismatistNewmismatist Posts: 1,802 ✭✭


    << <i>just returning from almost year off can someone PM me what this is about please? >>



    Info Linky as to what this is about
    Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.

    “It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
    Newmismatist
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    VANSVANS Posts: 27
    The story on what happened at hearing, by David C. Harper, is now up on numismaticnews.net

    Kagin Manley story
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    WritersblockWritersblock Posts: 1,196 ✭


    << <i>What bothers me most about this whole case is that there has been no stink about Mark Striley buying the ingot for under melt. He is the one who should be sent to the ANA gallows IMO >>


    Is Mark Striley a member of the ANA? If not then he can't be sent to the ANA gallows.
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    secondrepublicsecondrepublic Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭
    Without knowing the facts of the case in any detail, Kagin's response seems quite strong.
    "Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
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    FatManFatMan Posts: 8,977 ✭


    << <i>

    << <i>What bothers me most about this whole case is that there has been no stink about Mark Striley buying the ingot for under melt. He is the one who should be sent to the ANA gallows IMO >>


    Is Mark Striley a member of the ANA? If not then he can't be sent to the ANA gallows. >>

    Yes, unless he lied on his dealer listing
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    NewmismatistNewmismatist Posts: 1,802 ✭✭
    Here's th last several paragraphs of the ANA decision:



    << <i>The Board is mindful of the fact that Manley alleged that Kagin’s story changed as this matter progressed. However, the Board did not hear testimony that supported that allegation. While Kagin was not thorough in his research efforts and investigation on the provenance of the Bar in his efforts to consummate the sale of the Bar, the Board did not hear a changing story. Certainly, one does not disclose all information such as proprietary information in an auction catalogue. And when allegations of misconduct are raised against a person (regardless of whether they are an ANA Governor), one can anticipate that they might be hesitant to share information for fear that the information might be used against them.

    Could Kagin have done more to investigate the Bar before trying to broker a sale? Certainly. Should Kagin have done more to investigate the Bar before trying to broker a sale? Prior to his communication with Manley in January 2006, possibly; with hindsight as the Board heard testimony at the hearing, definitely. But actions that Kagin possibly could have taken do not give rise to the level of unethical conduct requiring action be taken against him under the ANA’s Bylaws or Codes of Ethics.

    There was no evidence to demonstrate that Kagin knew or should have known that the Bar was stolen; whether Kagin knew or should have known that Manley at one point owned the Bar does not require him to make inquiry of Manley as to whether he still owned or had sold the Bar; and Kagin’s story, as presented to the Board at the hearing, did not demonstrate that he had changed or modified his version of what had occurred as the matter was investigated and the complaint process progressed.


    DETERMINATION

    Based on its findings and conclusions, the Board will take no action on this complaint; however, the Board strongly advises and directs Governor Kagin that in any situation such as that presented here, where there are issues and unanswered questions surrounding the information being provided or not provided with regard to the provenance and value of a numismatic item being offered for sale, that he (and any governor finding him/herself in such a situation) engage in further due diligence, including contacting those known to be experts in the field, to assure that there are no problems with such an item. Had Governor Kagin engaged in additional due diligence, such as contacting Manley who was known to him to be the expert on Blake bars, this entire unfortunate situation could have been avoided.

    DATED this 30th day of May 2007
    BY THE AMERICAN NUMISMATIC ASSOCIATION: >>

    Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.

    “It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
    Newmismatist
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    SwampboySwampboy Posts: 13,245 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is that the end of it?

    "Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso

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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 25,207 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The decision seems to make sense.

    Can you imagine the legal bills this action generated?
    All glory is fleeting.

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