<< <i>If you're charging $3 on shipping for one card (graded or raw) and are not making money on shipping, you have no idea how to ship. There's absolutely no reason to raise the rates on one card when my USPS shipping fees went from .63 to .75 for one graded PSA card in a bubble mailer with additional bubble wrap around the slab. I charge $3 for the first card and nothing for additional cards and I break about even overall on shipping, and sell a lot more cards (mutliple cards to one buyer) because of my aggressive shipping rates. If you're making a concerted effort to make money on shipping, you're a di*khead, in my humble opinion.
Lee >>
Geez, I make a post about my own shipping increases (which doesn't impact you at all) and you resort to name calling. Very adult. It's humorous how tough talking people can be while hiding behind their keyboard a 1000 miles away.
If you re-read my post you will see what I'm referring to about the shipping increases. I would think bidders will be smart enough to know to factor in the shipping increase with their bid amount. Bidding a dollar less will cover that. They would then pay the same amount for the card they're buying as before, and I would receive the same amount for the item I'm selling. Ebay gets less final value fee's. Makes sense doesn't it? How hard is that to understand. If buyers feel they're being ripped off by me, fine, let them decide that. They can always buy from someone else. I understand that might happen if I raise my shipping rates.
As far as not knowing how to ship, I've been in business for 17 years now and full-time in cards for seven years. I think I know the score. I spend $2500 a year on postage alone on average. Padded mailer shipping with bubble wrap around one psa card runs 2.4 oz. I've been shipping that way for years, I know the weights.
Since most buyers now pay with paypal, you're an idiot if you don't ship with delivery confirmation or signature conf. You're asking to be literally robbed by the few unethical buyers out there or lose charge backs from frauds who say the item never arrived. Trust me, there's buyers out there in ebayland just looking for a dope to mail something out without dc or sig. conf. so they can steal a card.
So the shipping costs went from $1.01 to $1.65 w/dc. Other shipping services went up drastically too. I don't like this fact either as both a buyer and seller, but it's a fact.
Also, you mentioned about using shipping as a profit center. Well, let's see, since I run a business I'll give you a brief listing of expenses associated with running it:
Postage padded mailers gas to and from post office and bank (depositing checks) taxes - state, federal, sales taxes. Ebay fee's Paypal fee's grading fee's Supplies: bubble wrap, packaging materials tape, yes tape, it's not free boxes for shipping (I use 300 ct. and 400 ct. sometimes) paper (for invoicing) ink for printer pens psa sleeves
tax prep for my business electricity (computer) not to mention depreciation and wear and tear on equipment, ie printers, scanners, and computer.
Also, two things I currently don't use: invoicing service such as vendio web hosting (I don't have one) sniping service
So as you can see, all businesses have 'other expenses' associated with being in business.
I would estimate that most mid-size to larger card dealers out there charged $4 to $8 per card for shipping prior to the postal increases already. Sure there were some that only charged $2.50 to $3.50 range too, but not that many. For example I won two $25 cards from Champs and Bums in Feb. and they charged me $9.19 for shipping yet the postage on the mailer read $3.41. So they 'made' $5.78 off the shipping and you know what, I could care less. Because I knew the postage rate going in and factored that into my max bid. How many times have you won three cards from DSLS and paid $8 for shipping only to see postage of half that amount on the mailer? Who cares, right?. You factor the shipping amount into your bids and move on.
Dealers charging higher rates included: 4-sharp, DSLS, Madec, Bollman, the backstop, Champs and Bums, 707, Goodwin, kurtz kards, mint state, Memory Lane, mint xpress, bbcexhange, sandyandy, cardmrchant6to4, the Ninth Inning, etc.... just to name a few off the top of my head.
So according to you all these other sellers are d*ckheads too for charging more than $3 for shipping like you do?
If you're a collector just selling off some dups or selling a few cards to offset some of your buys on ebay, then sure, go right ahead and charge less for shipping. But if you're in this hobby as a business, you have to meet your overhead expenses or soon you'll be out of business.
The bottom line is that most bidders will just factor in any postal increases into their bids.
By the way Lee nuts, why do you keep your id hid? Are you not reporting your income from card sales to the IRS on your schedule C? I guess if you're avoiding paying taxes on card sales, it's easy to be charging less for shipping and be the shipping genius you proclaim to be.
Rich
PS- if you want to be a tough guy in person, I'll be set up at the Chicago Sportsfest show in June. You can look me up and we can discuss this more in person either inside the show or outside.
If a seller is maliciously making money on shipping, they are a d*ckhead.
If you resemble these remarks, nothing personal, just telling it like it is.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
Even if you include gas (which I think is ridiculous)
I'm not sure I understand that rationale? The USPS took this into account with their recent price hike, no doubt. If you're providing goods/services to another person, why wouldn't that be a factor in determining costs? Not being critical, just raising the question...
Steve is correct, I wasn't specifically targeting my statement at cardbender.
When you charge for shipping, you're charging for shipping- nothing else. Your overhead costs are your overhead costs and should not be recovered under the guise of "shipping and handling". This would be like a restaurant adding a 20% gratuity to every check, then taking 10% of it and putting it into the owners pocket. The customer thinks it's going to their server, but they are being misled as to where their money is going. But the customer already knew going in that they'd be paying a 20% gratuity, so who cares right (sarcasm)? It's sad that it's become accepted practice for sellers to overcharge on shipping, but just because people accept it doesn't mean it's an honest way to do business. If you want to recover your overhead costs, build them into the pricing of your cards.
Also, ebay is very clear that they don't want people overcharging on shipping, and that ebay and paypal fees are the seller's burden, not the buyers. Like I said, if you want to recover those fees, build them into the pricing of your cards.
As for "keeping my id hid", I just never got around to filling out my profile. I made so little money on cards compared to what I do for a living that it would be insignificant in terms of my taxes. And I'm pretty sure the IRS isn't trolling message boards looking for guys who sell millions of dollars worth of cards.
gosteelers, I made that statement because it costs maybe 10 cents to take a ride to the post office unless you're 30 miles away, and most sellers ship from home now anyway. It's not that I was saying it's unjustifiable to factor in gas, just that it's such an insignificant amount, especially considering you're not usually going there to ship one package. You would have to split up your gas cost across all the packages your sending on each trip, which would come to a few cents each per package on average.
<<<<If a seller is maliciously making money on shipping, they are a d*ckhead>>>>>
What does this make the buyer - an innocent victim of some unscrupulous seller or someone who is too stupid or lazy to read the auction description and factor the shipping cost into their bid?
If a seller is "maliciously" making money on shipping, the buyer does not have to bid, or as Rich (cardbender) says, they simply factor that into their bid. What other business allows you to factor shipping into your purchase and adjust your buy price accordingly? As long as the buyer knows the shipping cost, they are in control.
Seems like cardbender knows how to run a business and those folks who think a seller is price gouging for making a buck or two on shipping (i.e. helping to offset some of their overhead so they can try and run a profitable business) are way off base IMHO.
Mark B.
Seeking primarily PSA graded pre-war "type" cards
My PSA Registry Sets
34 Goudey, 75 Topps Mini, Hall of Fame Complete Set, 1985 Topps Tiffany, Hall of Fame Players Complete Set
I don;t know how much clearer this could be. This is ebay's shipping policy:
"Excessive Shipping Charges Policy
Sellers may charge reasonable shipping and handling fees to cover the costs for mailing, packaging, and handling the items they are selling. While eBay will not prescribe exactly what a seller may or may not charge, eBay will rely on member reports and its own discretion to determine whether or not a seller’s shipping, handling, packaging, and/or insurance charges are excessive. Shipping and handling fees may not be listed as a percentage of the final sale price.
Sellers who want to be sure they are in compliance with this policy may charge actual shipping costs plus actual packaging materials cost (or less).
In addition to the final listing price, sellers are permitted to charge:
Actual Shipping cost: This is the actual cost (i.e. postage) for shipping the item.
Handling Fee: Actual packaging materials costs may be charged. A handling fee in addition to actual shipping cost may be charged if it is not excessive.
Insurance: Sellers offering insurance may only charge the actual fee for insurance. No additional amount may be added, such as “self-insurance”. Sellers who do not use a licensed 3rd party insurance company may not require buyers to purchase insurance. This is a violation of state law.
Tax: Only actual applicable federal, state, country, city, VAT, and equivalent taxes may be charged."
Someone please show me where ebay allows you to charge extra for shipping to cover overhead costs?
I didn't know this...Sellers who do not use a licensed 3rd party insurance company may not require buyers to purchase insurance. This is a violation of state law.
There are a bunch of sellers that violate this rule, for sure...
<< <i><<<<If a seller is maliciously making money on shipping, they are a d*ckhead>>>>>
What does this make the buyer - an innocent victim of some unscrupulous seller or someone who is too stupid or lazy to read the auction description and factor the shipping cost into their bid?
If a seller is "maliciously" making money on shipping, the buyer does not have to bid, or as Rich (cardbender) says, they simply factor that into their bid. What other business allows you to factor shipping into your purchase and adjust your buy price accordingly? As long as the buyer knows the shipping cost, they are in control.
Seems like cardbender knows how to run a business and those folks who think a seller is price gouging for making a buck or two on shipping (i.e. helping to offset some of their overhead so they can try and run a profitable business) are way off base IMHO. >>
As Lee posted above, if a Seller is maliciously making money on S&H, they are not only d*ckheads but also violating eBay's TOS.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
"Someone please show me where ebay allows you to charge extra for shipping to cover overhead costs?.......
A handling fee in addition to actual shipping cost may be charged if it is not excessive."
It's called a handling fee.....i.e. a charge for overhead. Trust me, EBAY makes sure their overhead is covered and if they didn't, they would not be a responsible public company. They just don't want to lose the fee if the shipping charges are too out of whack (understandable). But a seller making a $1 or $2 for handling is certainly not out of compliance with ebay's policy.
Mark B.
Seeking primarily PSA graded pre-war "type" cards
My PSA Registry Sets
34 Goudey, 75 Topps Mini, Hall of Fame Complete Set, 1985 Topps Tiffany, Hall of Fame Players Complete Set
The handling fee is meant for costs directly related to getting the items sent off. Examples would be packaging materials and paid labor. Email ebay and ask them if you are allowed to recover ebay and paypal fees by charging for "handling".
<< <i>When you charge for shipping, you're charging for shipping- nothing else. Your overhead costs are your overhead costs and should not be recovered under the guise of "shipping and handling". >>
Bingo! Whenever this topic comes up (seems like monthly!) I usually try to add this type of statement. Well said, Lee.
If you need those few bucks per card extra (to which you are not entitled) then maybe you don't know how to run your business properly? Just because everyone seems to be doing it, does not make it right. Buyers are forced to accept it, but most of them see right through the B.S. - and given an alternative to buy from, they will do so.
I used to buy cards from DSL from time to time - and you bet it bothered me to pay $8 for 3 cards that arrived in a bubble mailer with $1.50 (approx) postage on it.
Not to stray off topic, but my point about not using delivery confirmation is this:
Here's what cardbender said:
<< <i>Since most buyers now pay with paypal, you're an idiot if you don't ship with delivery confirmation or signature conf. You're asking to be literally robbed by the few unethical buyers out there or lose charge backs from frauds who say the item never arrived. Trust me, there's buyers out there in ebayland just looking for a dope to mail something out without dc or sig. conf. so they can steal a card. >>
No doubt there are thieves out there. However, a simple run-down of the costs will show that it's far more beneficial financlially to not use delivery confirmation for transactions that average $25 (I use D/C for items over $50). Let's say you average one stolen/lost card for every 50 cards you send out at 75 cents postage without D/C. That means you're total costs are:
$.75 shipping x 50 cards= $37.50 in postage Lost/stolen card= $25.00 Total cost= $62.50
If you use paypal to ship at $1.48 per package with D/C, here is the breakdown: $1.48 shipping x 50 cards= $74 No lost/stolen cards due to D/C= $0 Total costs= $74
So if you're losing out on one card for every 50 you sell (which is conservative; it's actually about 1 for every 80-100 for me), you're losing money by paying for delivery confirmation. D/C is a form of insurance and sometimes it isn't financially justifiable to pay for insurance, as is the case here.
You really claim all of your Ebay sales on your taxes?? >>
Yes I do. There's a record of those sales, ebay has them and could easily report them to the IRS. I don't have a job. So all money I receive for sales is reported. Even cash sales at shows. I keep excellent records. Why try to snake a few dollars off the books and open yourself up to a possible audit. My sister is a CPA. You don't want to be audited.
I understand both sides of the shipping cost argument guys. I'm both a buyer and seller, so like all of you I've been exposed to high shipping costs as well from some vendors.
I just adjust my bid to compensate for this amount. I'm saying I think most buyers are smart enough to do this. Also I realize higher shipping costs drive some buyers away from some sellers. Point taken.
Higher shipping costs doesn't really bother me as a buyer as long as I receive the item and it's well-packed. Speed of delivery is of no concern for me as well as long as I receive it within 30 days, and or the seller informs me of any potential delays in shipping it timely. If the seller communicates with me any delays, I have no problem.
When postage jumped $0.65 for me for one graded card, I decided to raise my shipping a buck. Raising it 65 cents to match the postal increase would have been a nightmare to keep track of. I could've went up 50 cents to cover the increases but i didn't. I'm suspecting another ebay raise in fee's at some point in the near future. They seem to raise them every couple of years. On the last major ebay fee increase I didn't raise my shipping. I saw other sellers raise their shipping at that time. I absorbed those costs into my business. I sell a lot of cards out of an ebay store so the ffv fee's are much higher than regular auction type sales and they went up significantly a few month's ago.
So if going from $3 to $4 for shipping offends 90% of my customers, I guess I'll soon find that out.
One last thing, I ship ungraded cards for $2.-2.50, each addtl are 50 cents each. I didn't raise that amount.
Lee, I'm not sure why you are so against using del. conf. Online thru paypal it's only 18 cents. Up from 14 cents. Hardly a huge fee to cover your a$$, considering you can actually look online for the date the item was received.
<< <i>Why try and snake a few dollars off ebayers under the guise of "shipping"?
So you're saying you're willing to be dishonest for a few dollars only if there's no punishment? That's cool.
Lee >>
If that's what you want to think about me, fine.
You don't even know me.
Are you saying you drive the posted speed limit on all roads?
If you don't then you're a law breaker and should be ticketed for your dishonesty. Do you voluntarily send money into the police for your speeding and law breaking if there's no one to see you or catch you commiting the crime?
Dishonest is when someone doesn't reveal their shipping charges then drills you with crazy shipping costs after the auction completes to make up for the potential low bids they've received. We've all seen that. If you disclose all shipping amounts in your auction description, how is that being dishonest?
I don't use D/C becuase you can send a single card or two at the flat rate at .75 per package, vs. $1.48 through paypal with D/C. It's not the .18 D/C that drives the paypal cost up, it's the fact that you have to send through the package rate vs. the flat rate, which is roughly double.
I'm not against you in particular cardbender. It's more like I'm against the "seller gets to gouge the buyer on shipping and it's acceptable" system we have to swallow. The fact that you freely admit that you gouge on shipping to cover other costs that have nothing to do with shipping, and that you're perfectly ok with it because other people do it kind of irks me. Especially since we're dealing with mostly hobbyists who aren't in the game for the money. Sure, most people know, understand, and are willing to deal with the fact that people overcharge on shipping. That still doesn't make it ethically right to do so.
Plus, it's not like ebayers really have a choice. The odds of getting the card(s) they want from somebody who doesn't overcharge on shipping are very slim.
I really think it's kind of funny that people don't realize it's morally and ethically wrong to charge someone $4 for shipping when it only costs $2.
Lee
Edit to say: I guess dishonest was the wrong word to use in my previous post. Unethical is probably more appropriate. Cardbender, I'm sure you're not a bad person and I really didn't mean this to be a personal attack on you. It's more against the system and dealers like you are perpetuating the bad aspects of buying and selling on ebay. You're doing what everybody's doing- I understand that. If 4SC or DSL came on here, I'd tell them the same thing.
The new rates really hit you hard if you are mailing large packages. I was sending out a 3 lb package and was paying around $9.00, that went up to $15.85. The new charges are based on package size and weight. The clerks now have rulers to measure each package. It takes much longer to ship packages now because the clerk must measure 3 sides and enter the numbers into the computer. I was told the reason for the increase was they are using outside haulers or contractors to certain zones. A large 3 lb package takes up as much room as a 70 lb package on a plane or truck.
It would not be bad to have the increase if they did something with it, like add more clerks. It sucks to walk in at 4 pm and have 30 people in line and 3 clerks working with 4 unused windows. The clerks at my office seem to work in slow motion.
<< <i>When postage jumped $0.65 for me for one graded card, I decided to raise my shipping a buck. Raising it 65 cents to match the postal increase would have been a nightmare to keep track of. >>
You should put that disclaimer in your auctions.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
I cover a lot of my fees with my shipping costs and i charge $2.75 to ship a card. As a business, you should be trying to cover your costs with your gross sales. Part of your gross sales is shipping and the other is the actual price a card sells for. Since i cannot control the price an auction sells for, i at least want to cover my fixed costs (listing fees, time to list etc) through my shipping cost. A buyer should have no problem with this as my shipping cost is stated up front and i am not really charging all that much anyway. ...Also, cdnuts, if you are able to ship for that cheap you are very lucky. The minimum cost for a bubble mailer should be $1.13. The main reason i was explained is that if the mailer cannot go through the machine it is now a parcel, and no mailers should be going through the machine because most will get damaged.
www.sportsnutcards.com Specializing in Certified Autograph Cards, Rookies, Rare Inserts and other quality modern cards! Over 8000 Cards in stock now! Come visit our physical store located at 1210 Main St. Belmar ,NJ
<< <i>When postage jumped $0.65 for me for one graded card, I decided to raise my shipping a buck. Raising it 65 cents to match the postal increase would have been a nightmare to keep track of. I could've went up 50 cents to cover the increases but i didn't. I'm suspecting another ebay raise in fee's at some point in the near future. They seem to raise them every couple of years. On the last major ebay fee increase I didn't raise my shipping. >>
You just hung yourself right there. Shipping fees should not be used to pay your Ebay fees.
Ebay fees are the cost of doing business on that site. It's like the rent at a brick and mortar store. You pay for that from your gross profits, just like your other expenses. Raise the price of your cards to cover it - that's fine. But raising the shipping fee that Ebay lets you collect to offset your shipping costs (only) is unethical (and against Ebay's terms and conditions).
Ctsoxfan, the problem with that is that you do not have control over what your auctions wil end at, while in a store you have a price set to cover those expenses.
www.sportsnutcards.com Specializing in Certified Autograph Cards, Rookies, Rare Inserts and other quality modern cards! Over 8000 Cards in stock now! Come visit our physical store located at 1210 Main St. Belmar ,NJ
Tedh, I agree with that. But, that is the chance you take with Ebay and selling in the auction format. If you can't afford to do that, then you should be selling your cards with BIN's only, or in another fixed price format (or on another site).
It's not fair to make the buyers cover your risk like that.
This argument will always go around in circles, but what it comes down to is people rationalizing their unethical behavior.
The basic premise of charging people more for shipping than you actually spend is intuitively unethical. You can spin it any way you want, but that's the bottom line.
But its not making buyers do anything. They are free to bid or not to bid. As long as the shipping price is listed, the buyer should just figure their bid based upon that information. If i as a seller, want to start my item at .99 and charge $3, i should be able to do that, just like i should be able to charge $1 for shipping and start the auction at 2.99
www.sportsnutcards.com Specializing in Certified Autograph Cards, Rookies, Rare Inserts and other quality modern cards! Over 8000 Cards in stock now! Come visit our physical store located at 1210 Main St. Belmar ,NJ
It's not so much the shipping on individual cards that gets to me. If you want to charge 3 or 4 bucks for a single card I will factor that into my decision to bid or not. It's the whack jobs that won't combine shipping on multiple wins that piss me off. Does it really cost you an extra dollar for every card you jam into the same envelope/box? Or even better, the idiots who charge the full shipping price for every card and ship in the same evelope/box but don't disclose that until after the fact.
Looking for a Glen Rice Inkredible and Alex Rodriguez cards
halos- couldn't agree more, however what those guys are doing and what the guys in this thread are doing are really intrinsically no different. Sure, the guys you're talking about are gouging to a greater degree, but gouging is gouging, and it makes it worse when you set out to do it intentionally.
It's amazing to me that people can justify overcharging on shipping because "it's only a little bit", "other dealers are doing it", and "the buyer agreed to those terms". It's a sad state of affairs that these have become acceptable business practices.
With all this talk about a buck extra for shipping a card, I wonder how you guys feel about paying 15% juice (talk about handling fees!) on top of your winning bid at auction house listings, like Mastro, etc.?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
It's a completely different animal. Maestro is getting the funds, not the seller. That's their policy, and anybody who agrees to buy through Maestro understands they have to pay a fee in order to have the "privelege" to buy through their auction house. I think the juice is ridiculous, but if people agree to pay it, then that's their perrogative. They make no bones about saying "This is our fee for oyu to buy with us". It would be like if ebay charged buyers $1 per auction. As the auction company, they have that right. As a seller or buyer, you have to agree to abide by the rules of the auction company.
Cdnuts, there should be no reason why a seller cannot charge whatever they want for shipping. We are living in a free market society where the buyer dictates wether they want to do business with the seller or not. I agree, $10 to ship a single card is high, but if i win a card for $1, with $10 shipping that usually sells for $12, i am actually ahead of the game. If the seller charging $10 for shipping doesnt make sales he will either have to lower or he will go out of business.
www.sportsnutcards.com Specializing in Certified Autograph Cards, Rookies, Rare Inserts and other quality modern cards! Over 8000 Cards in stock now! Come visit our physical store located at 1210 Main St. Belmar ,NJ
That's their policy, and anybody who agrees to buy through Maestro understands they have to pay a fee in order to have the "privelege" to buy through their auction house. I think the juice is ridiculous, but if people agree to pay it, then that's their perrogative.
That is really no different, though, from a buyer's standpoint at least, from a buyer agreeing to a seller's stated shipping terms on ebay, IMO. Essentially, the same rule applies here: that if the buyer agrees to pay it (as you stated), then it's their perrogative to do so.
Also, many high volume sellers on ebay sell items on consignment, too.
Edit: As you said, though, this debate, like all similar ones before it, will just keep going around and around in circles. Personally, I just don't believe that charging $3.50 for shipping a graded card is anywhere near "price gouging" as you put it, and I just think to describe it as such is inaccurate. I think anything up to $4 for a graded card is acceptable for me, though, obviously if the buyer disagrees, he or she can refrain from agreeing to those terms by just not bidding in the first place.
As halosfan stated, though, what does really burn me are sellers who won't combine shipping for multiple auctions (or at least charge no more than say a $1 per addtl card) but expect one payment for all auctions and then ship out all the cards in one package.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
grote, the example halosfan used "burns" you because you are paying for something that you aren't getting. You're paying for shipping and they're not spending the money you paid for shipping on shipping. At $4 for one card, it's the same story. You're paying for something you're not getting. Sure you're getting taken for less, but you're still getting taken.
Back to the topic at hand, using the USPS is still cheap in my opinion.
I charge 3.00 for an auction win an add 1.00 per win therafter up to a max of 5.00. Si in theory a person could win 8 cards from me and pay 5.00 shipping. I allow a person 7 days between auctions too.
At $4 for one card, it's the same story. You're paying for something you're not getting. Sure you're getting taken for less, but you're still getting taken.
I just don't agree with that anaolgy at all. Paying $4 shipping for one graded card is not even comparable to paying $8 shipping for two cards and receiving both in one package. Such an inequal analogy is tantamount to comparing someone who goes one mile per hour over the speed limit to someone who goes 20 mph over the speed limit. It's just too simplistic to to say, well, they're both speeding, or in the former instance, they're both shipping ripoffs. I just don't perceive it as that black and white.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
It's more like saying stealing an apple vs. stealing a TV are the same. They are both stealing, but to different degrees. If you don't mind people stealing your apples, more power to you.
I charge 3.00 for an auction win an add 1.00 per win therafter up to a max of 5.00
Using Lee's logic, that is excessive as it costs nowhere near $5 to ship three graded cards. To me, $5 shipping is a fair amount to charge, but the difference in the actual postage cost and $5 is definitely a couple of apples, as Lee put it.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I agree that $5 is a little high for 3 cards, which will only cost about $3 and change to ship. However, in Steve's case, he's willing to ship anything additional at no cost, so it's clear he's not making an effort to use shipping as a profit center.
What I'm trying to make a statement against is people intentionally overcharging on shipping, which Steve is clearly not in that group.
It most certaintly does cost 5.00 for me to ship 3 cards as in that case I usually ship them priority mail using those lil boxes the PO provides. And If I don't, I then just charge my customers 3.00 for the 3 wins. I have found that by being reasonable on the shipping my customers bid away. I have at least 10 people bidding on my stuff over and over.
edited to add: I also allow for 7 days in between sales too. I have seen some guys restrict that to auctions won on the same day.
It's pretty simple- you charge people for shipping, so make an effort to spend that money on shipping. This is only fair on the most basic rational, moral, and ethical level.
It's pretty simple- you charge people for shipping, so make an effort to spend that money on shipping.
I'll agree with you there. And let's face it, the more reasonable the shipping rates, the more bidders you'll probably attract. I think anything within the $3-$4 range for a card or two is very reasonable, too.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>This argument will always go around in circles, but what it comes down to is people rationalizing their unethical behavior.
The basic premise of charging people more for shipping than you actually spend is intuitively unethical. You can spin it any way you want, but that's the bottom line.
Lee >>
I don't think anything can be unethical if
a)two consenting and rational adults agree to the terms of the transaction and b)one party does not hold more information that is relevant to the transaction than the other.
Unethical behavior, IMO, almost necessarily entails a lack of disclosure.
Comments
<< <i>If you're charging $3 on shipping for one card (graded or raw) and are not making money on shipping, you have no idea how to ship. There's absolutely no reason to raise the rates on one card when my USPS shipping fees went from .63 to .75 for one graded PSA card in a bubble mailer with additional bubble wrap around the slab. I charge $3 for the first card and nothing for additional cards and I break about even overall on shipping, and sell a lot more cards (mutliple cards to one buyer) because of my aggressive shipping rates. If you're making a concerted effort to make money on shipping, you're a di*khead, in my humble opinion.
Lee >>
Geez, I make a post about my own shipping increases (which doesn't impact you at all) and you resort to name calling. Very adult. It's humorous how tough talking people can be while hiding behind their keyboard a 1000 miles away.
If you re-read my post you will see what I'm referring to about the shipping increases. I would think bidders will be smart enough to know to factor in the shipping increase with their bid amount. Bidding a dollar less will cover that. They would then pay the same amount for the card they're buying as before, and I would receive the same amount for the item I'm selling. Ebay gets less final value fee's. Makes sense doesn't it? How hard is that to understand. If buyers feel they're being ripped off by me, fine, let them decide that. They can always buy from someone else. I understand that might happen if I raise my shipping rates.
As far as not knowing how to ship, I've been in business for 17 years now and full-time in cards for seven years. I think I know the score. I spend $2500 a year on postage alone on average. Padded mailer shipping with bubble wrap around one psa card runs 2.4 oz. I've been shipping that way for years, I know the weights.
Since most buyers now pay with paypal, you're an idiot if you don't ship with delivery confirmation or signature conf. You're asking to be literally robbed by the few unethical buyers out there or lose charge backs from frauds who say the item never arrived. Trust me, there's buyers out there in ebayland just looking for a dope to mail something out without dc or sig. conf. so they can steal a card.
So the shipping costs went from $1.01 to $1.65 w/dc. Other shipping services went up drastically too. I don't like this fact either as both a buyer and seller, but it's a fact.
Also, you mentioned about using shipping as a profit center.
Well, let's see, since I run a business I'll give you a brief listing of expenses associated with running it:
Postage
padded mailers
gas to and from post office and bank (depositing checks)
taxes - state, federal, sales taxes.
Ebay fee's
Paypal fee's
grading fee's
Supplies:
bubble wrap, packaging materials
tape, yes tape, it's not free
boxes for shipping (I use 300 ct. and 400 ct. sometimes)
paper (for invoicing)
ink for printer
pens
psa sleeves
tax prep for my business
electricity (computer)
not to mention depreciation and wear and tear on equipment, ie printers, scanners, and computer.
Also, two things I currently don't use:
invoicing service such as vendio
web hosting (I don't have one)
sniping service
So as you can see, all businesses have 'other expenses' associated with being in business.
I would estimate that most mid-size to larger card dealers out there charged $4 to $8 per card for shipping prior to the postal increases already. Sure there were some that only charged $2.50 to $3.50 range too, but not that many. For example I won two $25 cards from Champs and Bums in Feb. and they charged me $9.19 for shipping yet the postage on the mailer read $3.41. So they 'made' $5.78 off the shipping and you know what, I could care less. Because I knew the postage rate going in and factored that into my max bid. How many times have you won three cards from DSLS and paid $8 for shipping only to see postage of half that amount on the mailer? Who cares, right?. You factor the shipping amount into your bids and move on.
Dealers charging higher rates included: 4-sharp, DSLS, Madec, Bollman, the backstop, Champs and Bums, 707, Goodwin, kurtz kards, mint state, Memory Lane, mint xpress, bbcexhange, sandyandy, cardmrchant6to4, the Ninth Inning, etc.... just to name a few off the top of my head.
So according to you all these other sellers are d*ckheads too for charging more than $3 for shipping like you do?
If you're a collector just selling off some dups or selling a few cards to offset some of your buys on ebay, then sure, go right ahead and charge less for shipping. But if you're in this hobby as a business, you have to meet your overhead expenses or soon you'll be out of business.
The bottom line is that most bidders will just factor in any postal increases into their bids.
By the way Lee nuts, why do you keep your id hid? Are you not reporting your income from card sales to the IRS on your schedule C? I guess if you're avoiding paying taxes on card sales, it's easy to be charging less for shipping and be the shipping genius you proclaim to be.
Rich
PS- if you want to be a tough guy in person, I'll be set up at the Chicago Sportsfest show in June. You can look me up and we can discuss this more in person either inside the show or outside.
Steve
If a seller is maliciously making money on shipping, they are a d*ckhead.
If you resemble these remarks, nothing personal, just telling it like it is.
Even if you include gas (which I think is ridiculous)
I'm not sure I understand that rationale? The USPS took this into account with their recent price hike, no doubt. If you're providing goods/services to another person, why wouldn't that be a factor in determining costs? Not being critical, just raising the question...
When you charge for shipping, you're charging for shipping- nothing else. Your overhead costs are your overhead costs and should not be recovered under the guise of "shipping and handling". This would be like a restaurant adding a 20% gratuity to every check, then taking 10% of it and putting it into the owners pocket. The customer thinks it's going to their server, but they are being misled as to where their money is going. But the customer already knew going in that they'd be paying a 20% gratuity, so who cares right (sarcasm)? It's sad that it's become accepted practice for sellers to overcharge on shipping, but just because people accept it doesn't mean it's an honest way to do business. If you want to recover your overhead costs, build them into the pricing of your cards.
Also, ebay is very clear that they don't want people overcharging on shipping, and that ebay and paypal fees are the seller's burden, not the buyers. Like I said, if you want to recover those fees, build them into the pricing of your cards.
As for "keeping my id hid", I just never got around to filling out my profile. I made so little money on cards compared to what I do for a living that it would be insignificant in terms of my taxes. And I'm pretty sure the IRS isn't trolling message boards looking for guys who sell millions of dollars worth of cards.
Lee
I made that statement because it costs maybe 10 cents to take a ride to the post office unless you're 30 miles away, and most sellers ship from home now anyway. It's not that I was saying it's unjustifiable to factor in gas, just that it's such an insignificant amount, especially considering you're not usually going there to ship one package. You would have to split up your gas cost across all the packages your sending on each trip, which would come to a few cents each per package on average.
Lee
What does this make the buyer - an innocent victim of some unscrupulous seller or someone who is too stupid or lazy to read the auction description and factor the shipping cost into their bid?
If a seller is "maliciously" making money on shipping, the buyer does not have to bid, or as Rich (cardbender) says, they simply factor that into their bid. What other business allows you to factor shipping into your purchase and adjust your buy price accordingly? As long as the buyer knows the shipping cost, they are in control.
Seems like cardbender knows how to run a business and those folks who think a seller is price gouging for making a buck or two on shipping (i.e. helping to offset some of their overhead so they can try and run a profitable business) are way off base IMHO.
Seeking primarily PSA graded pre-war "type" cards
My PSA Registry Sets
34 Goudey, 75 Topps Mini, Hall of Fame Complete Set, 1985 Topps Tiffany, Hall of Fame Players Complete Set
"Excessive Shipping Charges Policy
Sellers may charge reasonable shipping and handling fees to cover the costs for mailing, packaging, and handling the items they are selling. While eBay will not prescribe exactly what a seller may or may not charge, eBay will rely on member reports and its own discretion to determine whether or not a seller’s shipping, handling, packaging, and/or insurance charges are excessive. Shipping and handling fees may not be listed as a percentage of the final sale price.
Sellers who want to be sure they are in compliance with this policy may charge actual shipping costs plus actual packaging materials cost (or less).
In addition to the final listing price, sellers are permitted to charge:
Actual Shipping cost: This is the actual cost (i.e. postage) for shipping the item.
Handling Fee: Actual packaging materials costs may be charged. A handling fee in addition to actual shipping cost may be charged if it is not excessive.
Insurance: Sellers offering insurance may only charge the actual fee for insurance. No additional amount may be added, such as “self-insurance”. Sellers who do not use a licensed 3rd party insurance company may not require buyers to purchase insurance. This is a violation of state law.
Tax: Only actual applicable federal, state, country, city, VAT, and equivalent taxes may be charged."
Someone please show me where ebay allows you to charge extra for shipping to cover overhead costs?
Lee
There are a bunch of sellers that violate this rule, for sure...
You really claim all of your Ebay sales on your taxes??
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i><<<<If a seller is maliciously making money on shipping, they are a d*ckhead>>>>>
What does this make the buyer - an innocent victim of some unscrupulous seller or someone who is too stupid or lazy to read the auction description and factor the shipping cost into their bid?
If a seller is "maliciously" making money on shipping, the buyer does not have to bid, or as Rich (cardbender) says, they simply factor that into their bid. What other business allows you to factor shipping into your purchase and adjust your buy price accordingly? As long as the buyer knows the shipping cost, they are in control.
Seems like cardbender knows how to run a business and those folks who think a seller is price gouging for making a buck or two on shipping (i.e. helping to offset some of their overhead so they can try and run a profitable business) are way off base IMHO. >>
As Lee posted above, if a Seller is maliciously making money on S&H, they are not only d*ckheads but also violating eBay's TOS.
A handling fee in addition to actual shipping cost may be charged if it is not excessive."
It's called a handling fee.....i.e. a charge for overhead. Trust me, EBAY makes sure their overhead is covered and if they didn't, they would not be a responsible public company. They just don't want to lose the fee if the shipping charges are too out of whack (understandable). But a seller making a $1 or $2 for handling is certainly not out of compliance with ebay's policy.
Seeking primarily PSA graded pre-war "type" cards
My PSA Registry Sets
34 Goudey, 75 Topps Mini, Hall of Fame Complete Set, 1985 Topps Tiffany, Hall of Fame Players Complete Set
Lee
<< <i>When you charge for shipping, you're charging for shipping- nothing else. Your overhead costs are your overhead costs and should not be recovered under the guise of "shipping and handling". >>
Bingo! Whenever this topic comes up (seems like monthly!) I usually try to add this type of statement. Well said, Lee.
If you need those few bucks per card extra (to which you are not entitled) then maybe you don't know how to run your business properly? Just because everyone seems to be doing it, does not make it right. Buyers are forced to accept it, but most of them see right through the B.S. - and given an alternative to buy from, they will do so.
I used to buy cards from DSL from time to time - and you bet it bothered me to pay $8 for 3 cards that arrived in a bubble mailer with $1.50 (approx) postage on it.
Here's what cardbender said:
<< <i>Since most buyers now pay with paypal, you're an idiot if you don't ship with delivery confirmation or signature conf. You're asking to be literally robbed by the few unethical buyers out there or lose charge backs from frauds who say the item never arrived. Trust me, there's buyers out there in ebayland just looking for a dope to mail something out without dc or sig. conf. so they can steal a card. >>
No doubt there are thieves out there. However, a simple run-down of the costs will show that it's far more beneficial financlially to not use delivery confirmation for transactions that average $25 (I use D/C for items over $50). Let's say you average one stolen/lost card for every 50 cards you send out at 75 cents postage without D/C. That means you're total costs are:
$.75 shipping x 50 cards= $37.50 in postage
Lost/stolen card= $25.00
Total cost= $62.50
If you use paypal to ship at $1.48 per package with D/C, here is the breakdown:
$1.48 shipping x 50 cards= $74
No lost/stolen cards due to D/C= $0
Total costs= $74
So if you're losing out on one card for every 50 you sell (which is conservative; it's actually about 1 for every 80-100 for me), you're losing money by paying for delivery confirmation. D/C is a form of insurance and sometimes it isn't financially justifiable to pay for insurance, as is the case here.
Lee
<< <i>Cardbender,
You really claim all of your Ebay sales on your taxes?? >>
Yes I do. There's a record of those sales, ebay has them and could easily report them to the IRS. I don't have a job. So all money I receive for sales is reported. Even cash sales at shows. I keep excellent records.
Why try to snake a few dollars off the books and open yourself up to a possible audit. My sister is a CPA. You don't want to be audited.
So you're saying you're willing to be dishonest for a few dollars only if there's no punishment? That's cool.
Lee
I just adjust my bid to compensate for this amount. I'm saying I think most buyers are smart enough to do this. Also I realize higher shipping costs drive some buyers away from some sellers. Point taken.
Higher shipping costs doesn't really bother me as a buyer as long as I receive the item and it's well-packed. Speed of delivery is of no concern for me as well as long as I receive it within 30 days, and or the seller informs me of any potential delays in shipping it timely. If the seller communicates with me any delays, I have no problem.
When postage jumped $0.65 for me for one graded card, I decided to raise my shipping a buck. Raising it 65 cents to match the postal increase would have been a nightmare to keep track of. I could've went up 50 cents to cover the increases but i didn't. I'm suspecting another ebay raise in fee's at some point in the near future. They seem to raise them every couple of years. On the last major ebay fee increase I didn't raise my shipping. I saw other sellers raise their shipping at that time. I absorbed those costs into my business. I sell a lot of cards out of an ebay store so the ffv fee's are much higher than regular auction type sales and they went up significantly a few month's ago.
So if going from $3 to $4 for shipping offends 90% of my customers, I guess I'll soon find that out.
One last thing, I ship ungraded cards for $2.-2.50, each addtl are 50 cents each. I didn't raise that amount.
Lee, I'm not sure why you are so against using del. conf. Online thru paypal it's only 18 cents. Up from 14 cents. Hardly a huge fee to cover your a$$, considering you can actually look online for the date the item was received.
Rich
<< <i>Why try and snake a few dollars off ebayers under the guise of "shipping"?
So you're saying you're willing to be dishonest for a few dollars only if there's no punishment? That's cool.
Lee >>
If that's what you want to think about me, fine.
You don't even know me.
Are you saying you drive the posted speed limit on all roads?
If you don't then you're a law breaker and should be ticketed for your dishonesty. Do you voluntarily send money into the police for your speeding and law breaking if there's no one to see you or catch you commiting the crime?
Dishonest is when someone doesn't reveal their shipping charges then drills you with crazy shipping costs after the auction completes to make up for the potential low bids they've received. We've all seen that. If you disclose all shipping amounts in your auction description, how is that being dishonest?
I'm not against you in particular cardbender. It's more like I'm against the "seller gets to gouge the buyer on shipping and it's acceptable" system we have to swallow. The fact that you freely admit that you gouge on shipping to cover other costs that have nothing to do with shipping, and that you're perfectly ok with it because other people do it kind of irks me. Especially since we're dealing with mostly hobbyists who aren't in the game for the money. Sure, most people know, understand, and are willing to deal with the fact that people overcharge on shipping. That still doesn't make it ethically right to do so.
Plus, it's not like ebayers really have a choice. The odds of getting the card(s) they want from somebody who doesn't overcharge on shipping are very slim.
I really think it's kind of funny that people don't realize it's morally and ethically wrong to charge someone $4 for shipping when it only costs $2.
Lee
Edit to say: I guess dishonest was the wrong word to use in my previous post. Unethical is probably more appropriate. Cardbender, I'm sure you're not a bad person and I really didn't mean this to be a personal attack on you. It's more against the system and dealers like you are perpetuating the bad aspects of buying and selling on ebay. You're doing what everybody's doing- I understand that. If 4SC or DSL came on here, I'd tell them the same thing.
It would not be bad to have the increase if they did something with it, like add more clerks. It sucks to walk in at 4 pm and have 30 people in line and 3 clerks working with 4 unused windows. The clerks at my office seem to work in slow motion.
<< <i>When postage jumped $0.65 for me for one graded card, I decided to raise my shipping a buck. Raising it 65 cents to match the postal increase would have been a nightmare to keep track of. >>
You should put that disclaimer in your auctions.
Specializing in Certified Autograph Cards, Rookies, Rare Inserts and other quality modern cards! Over 8000 Cards in stock now! Come visit our physical store located at 1210 Main St. Belmar ,NJ
<< <i>When postage jumped $0.65 for me for one graded card, I decided to raise my shipping a buck. Raising it 65 cents to match the postal increase would have been a nightmare to keep track of. I could've went up 50 cents to cover the increases but i didn't. I'm suspecting another ebay raise in fee's at some point in the near future. They seem to raise them every couple of years. On the last major ebay fee increase I didn't raise my shipping. >>
You just hung yourself right there. Shipping fees should not be used to pay your Ebay fees.
Ebay fees are the cost of doing business on that site. It's like the rent at a brick and mortar store. You pay for that from your gross profits, just like your other expenses. Raise the price of your cards to cover it - that's fine. But raising the shipping fee that Ebay lets you collect to offset your shipping costs (only) is unethical (and against Ebay's terms and conditions).
Specializing in Certified Autograph Cards, Rookies, Rare Inserts and other quality modern cards! Over 8000 Cards in stock now! Come visit our physical store located at 1210 Main St. Belmar ,NJ
It's not fair to make the buyers cover your risk like that.
The basic premise of charging people more for shipping than you actually spend is intuitively unethical. You can spin it any way you want, but that's the bottom line.
Lee
Specializing in Certified Autograph Cards, Rookies, Rare Inserts and other quality modern cards! Over 8000 Cards in stock now! Come visit our physical store located at 1210 Main St. Belmar ,NJ
Lee
It's amazing to me that people can justify overcharging on shipping because "it's only a little bit", "other dealers are doing it", and "the buyer agreed to those terms". It's a sad state of affairs that these have become acceptable business practices.
Lee
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Lee
Specializing in Certified Autograph Cards, Rookies, Rare Inserts and other quality modern cards! Over 8000 Cards in stock now! Come visit our physical store located at 1210 Main St. Belmar ,NJ
That is really no different, though, from a buyer's standpoint at least, from a buyer agreeing to a seller's stated shipping terms on ebay, IMO. Essentially, the same rule applies here: that if the buyer agrees to pay it (as you stated), then it's their perrogative to do so.
Also, many high volume sellers on ebay sell items on consignment, too.
Edit: As you said, though, this debate, like all similar ones before it, will just keep going around and around in circles. Personally, I just don't believe that charging $3.50 for shipping a graded card is anywhere near "price gouging" as you put it, and I just think to describe it as such is inaccurate. I think anything up to $4 for a graded card is acceptable for me, though, obviously if the buyer disagrees, he or she can refrain from agreeing to those terms by just not bidding in the first place.
As halosfan stated, though, what does really burn me are sellers who won't combine shipping for multiple auctions (or at least charge no more than say a $1 per addtl card) but expect one payment for all auctions and then ship out all the cards in one package.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Lee
I charge 3.00 for an auction win an add 1.00 per win therafter up to a max of 5.00. Si in theory a person could win 8 cards from me and pay 5.00 shipping. I allow a person 7 days between auctions too.
Steve
I just don't agree with that anaolgy at all. Paying $4 shipping for one graded card is not even comparable to paying $8 shipping for two cards and receiving both in one package. Such an inequal analogy is tantamount to comparing someone who goes one mile per hour over the speed limit to someone who goes 20 mph over the speed limit. It's just too simplistic to to say, well, they're both speeding, or in the former instance, they're both shipping ripoffs. I just don't perceive it as that black and white.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Lee
Using Lee's logic, that is excessive as it costs nowhere near $5 to ship three graded cards. To me, $5 shipping is a fair amount to charge, but the difference in the actual postage cost and $5 is definitely a couple of apples, as Lee put it.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
What I'm trying to make a statement against is people intentionally overcharging on shipping, which Steve is clearly not in that group.
Lee
edited to add: I also allow for 7 days in between sales too. I have seen some guys restrict that to auctions won on the same day.
Steve
I'll agree with you there. And let's face it, the more reasonable the shipping rates, the more bidders you'll probably attract. I think anything within the $3-$4 range for a card or two is very reasonable, too.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Lee
<< <i>This argument will always go around in circles, but what it comes down to is people rationalizing their unethical behavior.
The basic premise of charging people more for shipping than you actually spend is intuitively unethical. You can spin it any way you want, but that's the bottom line.
Lee >>
I don't think anything can be unethical if
a)two consenting and rational adults agree to the terms of the transaction and
b)one party does not hold more information that is relevant to the transaction than the other.
Unethical behavior, IMO, almost necessarily entails a lack of disclosure.