Big Mac = Barry Bonds ???
jaxxr
Posts: 1,258 ✭✭
in Sports Talk
Bonds and his HR chase, are quite the popular topic lately.
While I do not have an absolute or final opinion of Bonds, as of yet, I do see that quite often Mark McGwire is thought of, in much a similar manner as Bonds. I wonder if most do actually feel that way ?
Big Mac was a college star and Olympic team member as a very young man. In 1988 as a 215 pound rookie, he hit 49 HRs , a MLB rookie record which still stands. He was an awesome hitter from the start.
He gained about 10-15 pounds over the years, quite possible the effect of athletic training combined with a natural physique maturity. He has never admitted to taking, or been convicted of taking, any ILLEGAL performance enchancing drugs.
Does the most frequent HR hitter of all-time, really "compare" to Bonds in the way he achieved his numbers ?
What do you fine posters think ?
While I do not have an absolute or final opinion of Bonds, as of yet, I do see that quite often Mark McGwire is thought of, in much a similar manner as Bonds. I wonder if most do actually feel that way ?
Big Mac was a college star and Olympic team member as a very young man. In 1988 as a 215 pound rookie, he hit 49 HRs , a MLB rookie record which still stands. He was an awesome hitter from the start.
He gained about 10-15 pounds over the years, quite possible the effect of athletic training combined with a natural physique maturity. He has never admitted to taking, or been convicted of taking, any ILLEGAL performance enchancing drugs.
Does the most frequent HR hitter of all-time, really "compare" to Bonds in the way he achieved his numbers ?
What do you fine posters think ?
This aint no party,... this aint no disco,.. this aint no fooling around.
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The better player....Bonds and it's not even close
McGwire was only a home run hitter...never hit for an average, struck out alot, was never a doubles hitter, never an run producer. Ovverated big time and forget his drug problems, with or without it I do not think he is a Hall of Famer
ill bet youll see clemens name on this list....
link
This clubhouse dude with the Mets will be much bigger than Balco.
What if the names are released and our friend Mr. Bonds is no where to be found
they are, there will always be doubts.
Kevin
<< <i>well it looks like the truth will finally come out. and it gonna be a lot more then big mac or bonds!
ill bet youll see clemens name on this list....
link >>
How true and well put, especially regarding the respect that established records deserve -
"Anyone who spends their hard-earned dollars to attend a ballgame deserves to know if the players are or were 'roided up and if the game is or was compromised. The legacies and career numbers of Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth and Willie Mays, to name a few, deserve the same respect."
<< <i><<What if the names are released and our friend Mr. Bonds is no where to be found>>
Did I miss something? I wasn't aware that this clubhouse employee had a monopoloy on steroids and HGH. >>
It's all over the web and ESPN. Gammons, Jayson Stark, Gene W., Tom Verducci have all said within the last week that when this thing breaks it will be bigger than Balco.
The feds have been working with this guy for over 18 months.
Don't think that b/c he works for one team he doesn't know people.
Bonds is awesome
They are not the same -- splitting hairs, I know. But what McGwire took was oer the counter and what the other guys have been proven to take was defintely illegally obtained and used.
That to me is the crux of the issue. Big Mac took a legal supplement that was not banned by the sport or the law of the land and these other jokers BROKE THE LAW to take illegally obtained substances.
Big Mac for the Hall and to the forgotten past with the rest of these guys.
What is holding up the perjury charge with Bonds?
<< <i>McGwire was only a home run hitter...never hit for an average, struck out alot, was never a doubles hitter, never an run producer. Ovverated big time and forget his drug problems, with or without it I do not think he is a Hall of Famer >>
I think that McGwire would be a sure fire HOFer if he never took anything. He would still be around 500 HR's. If steroids are what broke his body down early, then maybe he could have gotten a few more good seasons in. It's possible that he would have been somewhere near his current total if he played a few more years and was clean the whole time. Think of a lot of the lackluster, barely talented hacks that are in the Hall right now. There's no way that Ozzie Smith is better than McGwire. He would have made it in for sure. The asterick is the only thing causing him problems now.
Ozzie Smith was FAR better than McGwire, steroids aside. McGwire is Dave Kingman without steroids, a power hitter, yes, but a HOFer? No.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Yes, he admitted he "unknowingly" took them. One, I doubt he "unkowingly" took them considering all that's going on with his trainer. Two, knowingly or not, he admitted taking them.
Agreed. The perjury charge is hovering over his head because he lied about that when he testified. I have no respect for Bonds as a player or as a person, but he is/was a HOFer before he started cheating, and I believe he belongs in the HOF for that reason, unlike McGwire, who can't carry Barry's jock with or without steroids. Bonds will have to live with what he did and despite the fact that he pretends that he doesn't care what people think about him, you know it's got to be eating at him because it was the "lack of love" he thought he was receiving after the McGwire/Sosa HR chase that he started using steroids around 1999 or so. It's ironic, really, how all these cheaters got lumped together like that. Wonder if Barry regrets juicing in the first place? He'd be a sure-fire first ballot HOFer anyway, and that's what makes his situation all the more disappointing.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
May 5, 2007
Baseball’s Steroid Panel Asks Active Players to Appear
By JULIET MACUR and DAVID E. SANGER
The chairman of the special commission set up to examine the use of performance-enhancing drugs in Major League Baseball said for the first time yesterday that he had asked a number of active players to appear before the commission, a move that represents a major turning point in the yearlong investigation.
The former Senator George J. Mitchell of Maine, who is overseeing a team of lawyers and investigators working on the case, declined to say how many players had been sent letters requesting their appearance.
But others familiar with elements of the investigation said they believed at least three dozen current and former players were being sought by the panel. The prospect of any number of elite players’ being linked to the steroid issue would throw Major League Baseball into considerable turmoil only a month into the season, as players turn to hiring lawyers rather than focusing on hitting and pitching.
Mr. Mitchell, responding by e-mail to a series of written questions from The New York Times, described his investigation as entering its final phases.
“We expect to meet soon with the players whose interviews we have requested,” Mr. Mitchell said. Mr. Mitchell has no subpoena power, and said that if players refused to talk to his panel, which reports to Baseball Commissioner Bud Selig, “we will deal with the issue at that time.” Mr. Mitchell also said that Mr. Selig had agreed that the panel’s final report would be made public.
Officials from the commissioner’s office declined to comment yesterday on any phase of the Mitchell investigation, including which players might be asked to appear. League officials and union officials both said they were unaware of which players had been or would be asked to speak to Mr. Mitchell. A union official said the union, in the past, had received copies of letters Mr. Mitchell sent to former players.
Barry Bonds, the San Francisco Giants slugger who is 13 home runs shy of breaking Hank Aaron’s career record, will most likely not be asked to meet with the panel soon, according to a person briefed on the investigation. Mr. Bonds is under federal investigation over possible perjury during grand-jury testimony in the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative case, which involved the distribution of steroids to elite athletes in a wide range of sports.
Mr. Bonds’s lawyer, Michael Rains, said in an interview that Mr. Bonds would decline to speak to the panel if he would risk incriminating himself.
The investigation has left baseball in the uncomfortable position of trying to decide how to celebrate the moment if and when Mr. Bonds breaks Mr. Aaron’s record; it is highly unlikely that the questions surrounding his actions will be resolved by the time that homer is hit.
Mr. Rains said that he still expected Mr. Bonds to receive a letter from Mr. Mitchell “down the road,” because he anticipated that the Mitchell investigation would seek to talk to everyone involved in the Balco case. But he said that Mr. Bonds would cooperate with Mr. Mitchell’s group only if federal prosecutors promised to end the investigation of Mr. Bonds.
“I told my client, there’s not a chance in the world you will make a statement directly to the government, or indirectly, through the Mitchell investigation, unless the federal government gets off your back,” Mr. Rains said in an interview Thursday.
Mr. Mitchell, a Democrat who has headed many investigations since he left the Senate in 1995, is known for his work in seeking a settlement in Northern Ireland and for his Middle East diplomacy under President Bill Clinton. Now a practicing lawyer, he has conducted the investigation quietly over the past year, first seeking background information from former players and others associated with the game, then seeking specific evidence. Only now is he presenting that evidence to the players suspected of being involved.
In responding to inquiries, Mr. Mitchell stepped around questions of whether he was using names provided by Kirk Radomski, a former Mets clubhouse assistant who pleaded guilty last week to selling drugs to major leaguers.
In his plea agreement, Mr. Radomski, of Manorville, N.Y., admitted to distributing steroids, human growth hormone, amphetamines and other drugs to dozens of current and former players in Major League Baseball from 1995 to 2005. As part of that plea, he agreed to cooperate with Mr. Mitchell’s investigation. Mr. Radomski has also handed over at least 36 names of current and former major leaguers to federal prosecutors, according to people familiar with the case.
Matt Parrella, an assistant United States attorney in the Northern District of California who is the lead prosecutor on Mr. Radomski’s case, said that evidence from the Radomski matter would be turned over to the Mitchell investigation on an item-by-item basis. That evidence includes shipping records, financial records, correspondence and contact lists that detailed Mr. Radomski’s drug distribution to players, all seized in a December 2005 raid on Mr. Radomski’s home, according to a statement made last week by United States Attorney Scott N. Schools.
The day before Mr. Radomski pleaded guilty to steroid distribution and money laundering, he testified in front of the grand jury investigating Mr. Bonds, according to court documents filed in a San Francisco court.
Mr. Parrella added that grand jury testimony is secret, and not generally shared with other parties conducting investigations.
Mr. Mitchell declined to say whether the current players he was contacting were the players named by Mr. Radomski. But the timing suggests there may be connections between Mr. Radomski’s plea and the final phase of the Mitchell inquiry, which Mr. Mitchell said would take several months to complete.
“I anticipate issuing a report of my findings and recommendations to the commissioner, and he has agreed that report will be made available to the public,” Mitchell wrote. He said that Mr. Selig would be responsible for making any decisions about punishment of players determined to have used steroids or other performance-enhancing drugs.
The commissioner cannot discipline a player simply for refusing to talk to Mr. Mitchell if that player could incriminate himself. The precedent dates back a quarter-century. In 1980, a pitcher for the Texas Rangers, Ferguson Jenkins, was caught with marijuana, hashish and cocaine at a Toronto airport. When Mr. Jenkins refused to discuss the matter with Bowie Kuhn, then the commissioner, Mr. Kuhn suspended him. An arbitrator overturned that suspension, saying Mr. Jenkins, who faced criminal prosecution, could not be forced into self-incrimination.
But Mr. Selig could discipline a player if he were to conclude there was cause for punishment, which includes any evidence uncovered in the federal investigation. Mr. Selig has already acted in such a case: Federal agents caught Jason Grimsley, a journeyman pitcher, receiving a shipment of human growth hormone last spring. He was subsequently suspended for 50 games, then he retired.
The federal investigators are not likely to prosecute the individual players named by Mr. Radomski because those prosecutors generally go after dealers, not users. Those players still might decline to talk rather than risk incriminating themselves.
As current players are being called to meet with Mr. Mitchell, a battle is beginning in clubhouses across the country over whether Mr. Mitchell will receive the players’ medical records he has requested. So far, the union, the clubs and Mr. Mitchell have not agreed on whether those records will be made available. Medical privacy and employment rules complicate the issue further.
“In the end, it will probably be a watered-down version of the records that comes out,” said one club official involved in the process.
<< <i>The better player....Bonds and it's not even close >>
Assuming all things being equal and regardless of the suppliments they did/may take:
Edited to add:
Ozzie Smith (career): .262 AVG / 28 HR / 793 RBI
Mark McGwire (career): .263 AVG / 583 HR / 1414 RBI
That's not even close
Ozzie Smith (career): .262 AVG / 28 HR / 793 RBI
Mark McGwire (career): .263 AVG / 583 HR / 1414 RBI
That's not even close
Are you serious? Ozzie Smith was arguably the best fielding SS in the history of baseball, with 580 stolen bases, 13 gold gloves and he was a 15-time All Star playing one of the toughest and most crucial positions on the field. Playing baseball includes fielding as well as hitting (unless you're a DH) and the gap between Smith and McGwire there is so huge it's ludicrous to even compare the two. Smith was far better a player than Mark McGwire, with or without steroids. McGwire's only asset was his power, and even that was almost certainly artificially enhanced by his use of steroids.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
BB Reference stats show his pct was .993 as opposed to the league average at the time of .992, his range was rated as 8.79, well above the league average for his time of 7.17
And he was not just a very good homerun hitter, no one in the entire history of MLB, not Ruth, nor Bonds, ever homered as frequently per at bat than Mark McGwire over a full career.
But to compare a shortstop like Ozzie Smith to a "pretty good" firstbaseman, a position where a team usually stations one of its worst fielders, is a ridiculous comparison, really.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Maybe, with all that juice he injected it with! By now, his balls must be no bigger than raisins!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
The comparison between arguably the greatest fielding shortstop in the history of baseball and a steroid-injecting cheater like Mark McGwire is ridiculous. Without the juice, McGwire is only slightly better than Dave Kingman. Sure, he was an awesome HR hitter, but take away the juice and he is no better than a ton of other sluggers whose games were also one dimensional like McGwire's.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Career High 592 97 153 23 5 48 118 16 8 62 156 .288 .343 .613 326
162 Game Avg 535 101 141 22 1 50 122 1 1 114 138 .263 .394 .588 315
Career High 557 130 161 28 4 70 147 3 1 162 159 .312 .483 .752 383
Career High 592 97 153 23 5 48 118 16 8 62 156 .288 .343 .613 326
162 Game Avg 535 101 141 22 1 50 122 1 1 114 138 .263 .394 .588 315
Career High 557 130 161 28 4 70 147 3 1 162 159 .312 .483 .752 383
Well, I may be exaggerating when I said Dave Kingman...though Kong could get a hold of one every now and then, couldn't he?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Volver, those stats are hard to read, however I think no one will argue with the statement that McGwire was a much better "hitter" than Ozzie Smith or Dave Kingman.
Probably not, but McGwire was a power hitter (like Bonds) before he began pumping his body with growth hormones and lord knows what else. You don't have to be on steroids to be a slugger (see Griffey and also Bonds and McGwire before they began juicing), but there's little doubt that McGwire used steroids, and by extension that the main aspect of his value as a hitter (hitting home runs) was significantly and artificially enhanced by his use of those same steroids.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I don't feel like computing the numbers again(I have them at work), but pre '93 McGwire homered something like 1 every 14 at bats...and post '93 it was something like 1 every 8. An eager person can compute them to get the exact figure.
But like Bonds, he too rose proportionately higher than the league did during the emergence of the Live Ball era.
Another telling thing on McGwire's hitting ability is his situational hitting numbers. Career Runners in Scoring Position hitting included a .286 average, .444 OB%, and .615 SLG%. Even in that 'dreadful' 1991 season where he hit .201 overall, he managed to hit .240 with RISP.
Even the best so called 'batsman' contact type hitter, BIll BUckner hit .284(lower than Mac) with RISP for his career. Rickey Henderson hit .265. So Big Mac did handle the bat pretty well, and is certainly not anywhere near the Dave Kingman mold(in more ways than one).
Anyway, neither McGwire nor Bonds has ever tested positive for steroid use. Neither has been convicted in a court of law. Neither has had any solid evidence presented against them--aside from the media witch hunt and the chorus of me-too chants, that is. And these nobodies that come out of the woodwork with their tell-all books, they are to be believed because they are beyond reproach? Canseco, of all people? And this sock-sniffer from the latest story? Give me a break.
But let's say it's all true and 1000's of players have been on roids this past decade. Oops. I guess it's not cheating then. How could it be cheating if everyone is doing it? Cheating implies gaining an advantage over everyone else--if everyone has that same advantage then steroids were necessary to compete in the game, and it's not cheating. It would obviously be unfair to compare records of guys like Ruth and Mays with juiced players, but it's not cheating because they didn't play in the same era and never faced each other. So put as many denotations by the stats as you feel appropriate, but don't call it cheating.
And then there's that little sprinkle of truth that I hate to rain on everyone's parade, but whenever you have games of skill where strength, stamina, and speed are important--you're going to have guys trying every method available to IMPROVE their strength, stamina, and speed. That's why we have gyms, weight lifting, diet and exercise books, a billion dollar a year suppliment industry, and the whole 9 yards. The law arbitrarily decides which is legal and which isn't, but to a competitor, none of that really matters. If being obese and weak were attractive traits in baseball, and helped players to succeed in the game, you'd have all of them downing 50 pizzas daily, and watching TV around the clock. And that would be cheating when compared to the guy that for whatever reason couldn't gain weight or lose muscle mass. Poor guy, he's at a disadvantage. You, the fans, set these rules. You decided what was important. You created this monster and now you want to kill it.
If you truly believe that, and it sounds like you actually do, it's obviously useless to even bother wasting time to engage in any meaningful debate with you on this issue.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
That may be one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read on this issue. I want my 20 seconds back.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I believe what I said about Bonds and McGwire because it's true. Truth is something we find outside of the bar circles where people are hurling beer-induced nonsense about topics they know nothing about. Bonds and McGwire were never convicted. "If you truly believe that..." lol, I have my head held high, my friend, because it's true!
LOL, Oh the pompous hyperbole!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Folks, please stop arguing with basestealer. His comments are not opinions but facts. You may as well just consider it the word of God. He is so much smarter and wiser than everyone here on this board and those who disagree are obviously "intellectually challenged sports fans who lack integrity" and are "only crazed, shallow, addicted sports junkies who feel they are owed something would think that way." >>
Okay, let's do this your way.
Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire both tested positive for steroid use.
Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire were both convicted in a court of law for taking illegal steroids.
There is mountains of evidence proving Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire took illegal steroids, NOT including their performance, size, and heresay from tell-all books from people like Jose Canseco.
Now that we've redifined the truth to suit your needs, you should all be very happy. With such power, there isn't an argument you cannot win. If the facts don't support your opinions, just change the facts! I wish I had learned this sooner.
I said:
<< <i>Anyway, neither McGwire nor Bonds has ever tested positive for steroid use. Neither has been convicted in a court of law. Neither has had any solid evidence presented against them--aside from the media witch hunt and the chorus of me-too chants, that is. >>
He quoted and responded:
<< <i>If you truly believe that, and it sounds like you actually do, it's obviously useless to even bother wasting time to engage in any meaningful debate with you on this issue. >>
NEXT?
<< <i>Everything in your world is made up (including general knowledge of sports, life, and everything else from what I've seen >>
I know nothing about sports, life, or anything else. From what you've seen. Yes. That's all true. I know nothing. Now that you've changed the history and the facts, you can now reduce your opponents to worthless trash. Now nothing can stop you and your "opinions"! YAY!
I think baseball hit it right on the head, actually...
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Bonds and his HR chase, are quite the popular topic lately.
While I do not have an absolute or final opinion of Bonds, as of yet, I do see that quite often Mark McGwire is thought of, in much a similar manner as Bonds. I wonder if most do actually feel that way ?
Big Mac was a college star and Olympic team member as a very young man. In 1988 as a 215 pound rookie, he hit 49 HRs , a MLB rookie record which still stands. He was an awesome hitter from the start.
He gained about 10-15 pounds over the years, quite possible the effect of athletic training combined with a natural physique maturity. He has never admitted to taking, or been convicted of taking, any ILLEGAL performance enchancing drugs.
Does the most frequent HR hitter of all-time, really "compare" to Bonds in the way he achieved his numbers ?
What do you fine posters think ?
I agree that it is wrong to keep Mark out of the HOF solely on allegations. Same goes with Barry. And I thought we lived in the United States of America, where you're innocent until proven guilty.
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
<< <i>And I thought we lived in the United States of America, where you're innocent until proven guilty. >>
It's called the Court of Public Opinion and we have the right, as Americans, to voice it.
Additionally, if you abuse that right by stating an opinion as fact, especially in print, you can become liable for libel. Last I heard, Bonds only attempted to prevent the book "Game of Shadows" from being distributed, which was denied. How come the alleged steriod abusers haven't tried taking those writers or Canseco to court?
Maybe because they were telling the truth?
As far as I'm concerned, the ball is in their court. By not saying anything (or forgetting how to speak English), my opinion has been made.
They have had, and still do, ample opportunity to tell me something to help change my mind. But their silence is deafening....
<< <i>Text >>
Riddle me this.
If a "black" player is about to eclipse another "black" player's record, how is it a race issue
I was looking for the dangers of HGH and I really didn't find anything but it looks like a lot of the data isn't in yet. Why are we allowed to give the Growth Hormone to cows but for humans, it's bad? That makes no sense. Either it's bad or it's not bad.
But, doesn't a diet of high protein do the same thing? Granted, on a smaller scale, but the same effect on muscles. So, where's the line that sports fans will make as acceptable and not acceptable? Myself, I put down about 200g of protein a day, does that make me a cheater on my softball team? Why is one type of muscle growth ok but another is not?
I'm starting to believe that none of it is cheating. It's just using today's technology to your advantage. It's the evolution of society.
Bottom line is that if a human being puts a baseball over a major league fence 756 times, then it's a record. If the ballparks are smaller now, then that should be the asterick, not the size of the man that did it.
<< <i>wikipedia on Steroids and HGH >>
Just a suggestion... Anything you get from wikipedia, take with a grain of salt because it's not 100% factual.