Defining AT: Storage Materials
JoeLewis
Posts: 1,911 ✭✭✭✭
If a coin tones due to the material it was stored in, then under what circumstances do you call the coin AT? For example, I've heard people say that if a person stores a coin in an envelope, and the coin tones then it is definitely AT. What if the coin is stored in a coin album?
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
0
Comments
There is just market acceptable and non-market acceptable
<< <i>there is no such thing as artificial toning.
There is just market acceptable and non-market acceptable >>
If you mean that all toning is natural, then I agree with you.
UNLESS, someone can help define exactly what artificial toning is. These are not joke threads. I want to clarify this "thing' that I've been reading about in numerous threads, but that I have yet to understand.
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
<< <i>UNLESS, someone can help define exactly what artificial toning is. These are not joke threads. I want to clarify this "thing' that I've been reading about in numerous threads, but that I have yet to understand. >>
People have differing definitions of AT/NT. Because it is a contentious issue for collectors that affects perception, pricing, doctoring, TPGs, etc. I think it's a worthy project for the ANA. I'd like to see the ANA do a study and either provide objective definitions that collectors, dealers and TPGs can use, or say there is no good delineator.
<< <i>People have differing definitions of AT/NT. Because it is a contentious issue for collectors that affects perception, pricing, doctoring, TPGs, etc. I think it's a worthy project for the ANA. I'd like to see the ANA do a study and either provide objective definitions that collectors, dealers and TPGs can use, or say there is no good delineator. >>
I thought that this community could come to some kind of consensus. There seem to be many people here that are very confident in their decision between AT and NT. I would like to hear from those people. Of one of the five (I think) factors I've put out, surely some of these people can shed some light on the situation. I mean, if they can't then maybe they shouldn't be so confident.
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
Very good point. The way I see it is some don't know a wittman album will tone coins after a period of time. To me AT should be renamed IT for intentional toning. Some coins will tone over time and some wount. Depends on how they are stored. In a basement,safe deposit box or in a cardboard box on a concrete slab house floor. Some don't have much of a choice as to where they can store coins.
The yahoos that purposely "experiment" with coins to create toning is IT/AT. Putting the coin in an oven or in sulfer ect.
<< <i>I've had coins tone in the origional sealed mint packaging because of humidity in the house. >>
Oddly enough, some (maybe many) would make the argument that those coins are AT!
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
<< <i>Yes and if the sun was shinning outside some could make the arguement that it was cloudy. >>
No, I meant that some would consider keeping the coins in a known humid climate without taking some precautions to stop the toning is At'ing the coins.
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
I have a SAE collection in a Dansco album with the special anti-tone cover. Those silver "coins" have all started to tone and they have only been in that album since about 6 years ago. Each coin was blast white when I got them. Go figure. I don't consider the toning to be AT because it just happened, I didn't intend for the SAE's to tone. I'd rather them not tone at all.
I believe that those coin doctors that impart radical colors on coins are causing AT coins. But I don't think that coins that tone naturally over time are AT.
Jonathan
<< <i>I have several Whitman folders with different composition coins in them. They have been in those folders for 30+ years. NONE of the coins have toned whatsoever. They are all clad coins.
I have a SAE collection in a Dansco album with the special anti-tone cover. Those silver "coins" have all started to tone and they have only been in that album since about 6 years ago. Each coin was blast white when I got them. Go figure. I don't consider the toning to be AT because it just happened, I didn't intend for the SAE's to tone. I'd rather them not tone at all.
I believe that those coin doctors that impart radical colors on coins are causing AT coins. But I don't think that coins that tone naturally over time are AT.
Jonathan >>
Wow, you've hit upon the following factors: Storage, Intent, and Length of Time (there are threads fro each one of these.) Thanks for your input.
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
<< <i>
<< <i>I've had coins tone in the origional sealed mint packaging because of humidity in the house. >>
Oddly enough, some (maybe many) would make the argument that those coins are AT! >>
Who is going to say they're AT?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I've had coins tone in the origional sealed mint packaging because of humidity in the house. >>
Oddly enough, some (maybe many) would make the argument that those coins are AT! >>
Who is going to say they're AT? >>
Some people say that leaving them in a known humid climate without taking precautions to keep them from toning means that you are artificialy toning them. I think that is ridiculous. That is the kind of extreme end result of trying to draw the line between AT and NT (I believe there is no line.)
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
some time ago dorkkarl posted an interesting line of thought which probably fit into this definition of "extreme" and would be an interesting thread for some of the newer members to read. his line of thinking was intent------a Morgan Dollar toned from storage in a cloth bag from the Mint would be NT, more modern Mint State coins toned from bags/rolls/Mint Sets would be NT, Proof Sets toned in the original packaging would be NT. anything past that would essentially be AT since the coins are placed in an environment other than what they were intended to be in.
for my part, that's a bit extreme, but i can understand the rationale. prior to the past 10-20 years when much knowledge has been put forth about toning issues, it was common to place coins in some of the oddball storage mediums we all know, things such as sulfer laden binders/envelopes/tissue paper, coin holders which aren't airtight, flips containing PVC, felt lined boxes and storage cabinets made of chemically treated wood. knowing how the chemicals involved in those products can react with coins and cause damage, the current thinking is to avoid them. no serious collector will use PVC flips, right??? the same would seem to hold true for most of the other things i mentioned, or would it???
this brings us to what i call the Hypocritical-See-What-Happens collectors/dealers, or should i call them doctors?? find some nice manila envelopes that contain sulfer and place a coin in it to see what happens!!!! find some old Wayte Raymond pages, Library of Coins pages or even a brand new Dansco binder for coins to see what happens!!!!! try the coin in a potato in the oven test and see what happens!!!!! place a nice bright coin on the water heater in the damp basement to see what happens!!!!! need i say more??? sure, the process that's taking place is natural and the market-place might even like the product, especially if a major grading service such as PCGS or NGC says it looks cool and slabs it.
ironically, many of the people who do that type of thing will rail against AT'd coins, will decry the current state of affairs regarding the major grading services and some of the items they've holdered and will "out" coin doctors when/if they can. such is life. about the best a guy can do is study, learn, search, make mistakes and try to find coins they judge as OK for their collection.