<< <i>Hodges because of this hitting, being a member of the Boys of Summer and managing the Miracle Mets >>
Gil Hodges is a no for me. His managerial career adds nothing IMHO, World Series win or not. His career record was only .467, with only 1 season of 84 or more wins.
As for his hitting record, he put up several good/great years, but falls just short IMHO. Only 370 career HR (despite playing in a small park), .273 career BA, career OPS+ of 120, no single season awards (never even finished top 6 in MVP), etc.
<< <i>Hodges because of this hitting, being a member of the Boys of Summer and managing the Miracle Mets >>
Gil Hodges is a no for me. His managerial career adds nothing IMHO, World Series win or not. His career record was only .467, with only 1 season of 84 or more wins.
As for his hitting record, he put up several good/great years, but falls just short IMHO. Only 370 career HR (despite playing in a small park), .273 career BA, career OPS+ of 120, no single season awards (never even finished top 6 in MVP), etc.
Tabe >>
Have to agree here. Average isn't up to par. No single season awards. Those need to be there for a HOFer.
<< <i>I would like to think voters would be smart enough to realize how great Tim Raines was and vote him in to the HOF, but I don't think they are or will. >>
Raines is easily deserving. Compare his numbers to Gwynn's-they are virtually even if you use OBP instead of BA.
Growing up in Boston I have to mention Dwight Evans]
Similar batters Chili Davis (878) Billy Williams (873) * Luis Gonzalez (868) Tony Perez (866) * Dave Parker (853) Al Kaline (846) * Darrell Evans (843) Harold Baines (840) Steve Finley (835) Andre Dawson (835)
Dewey was a nice guy and had quite an arm to boot! Too bad the dumped him that last seaon with the o's I dont think he ever lead the league in anything, won a few gold gloves though
<< <i> Dewey was a nice guy and had quite an arm to boot! Too bad the dumped him that last seaon with the o's I dont think he ever lead the league in anything, won a few gold gloves though >>
Homers in '81. I remember the cool 4 way sticker with Gorman, Murray and someone else. 22 in a strike shortened year if I remember right.
Yeah, for me it's really Steve Garvey. Sure, he didn't have a ton of power, but had six 200-hit seasons in a 7-year span. Plus, he was a rock solid fielder and you could count on him to be in the lineup pretty much all the time. He had a relatively long career and did not drop off that much in his last few years like several other bubble players did.
I really like Mattingly, which is amazing considering I hate the Yankees However, if you really look at his career, he only had about 4-5 stellar years and then really dropped off after that. I think it was probably due to his worsening back condition, but still... Plus, his career was also quite short.
Another guy that's interesting is Will Clark. Based on his first 5 years, I thought he was going to be in for sure. But, his power and games played really dropped off after that... again most likely due to injury. Still, he ended up with a life-time .303 avg and .384 obp, which isn't too shabby.
The guy I'm really interested to see about is Ichiro. I wonder how long he'll have to play garner serious consideration. To me, if he plays 3 more years after this and comes even close to replicating previous performance, she should be in for sure. Barring injury, he should reach 2000 hits and 1000 runs in 9 full years...an amazing feat. Add that to a decent SB total and SB%, in addition to being probably the best OF'er of the decade, I believe he'll make it in.
Jim G All-time favorite athletes: Steve Sax, Steve Garvey, Larry Bird, Jerry Rice, Joe Montana, Andre Agassi, Karch Kiraly, Wayne Gretzky, Ichiro Suzuki, Andres Galarraga, Greg Maddux. "Make the world a better place... punch both A-Rods in the face (Alex Rodriguez and Andy Roddick)!"
Has any non-HOFer won as many batting titles (4) as Bill Madlock?
Also, another one that's confused me for years, is Riggs Stephenson. He played 14 years (1921-1934) with the White Sox and Cubs, and finished with a lifetime .336 batting average. Problem is, he played 100 games in a season only 5 times.
Oliva and Blyleven. Every year in July-early August, the local papers interview Oliva about his thoughts on making it, and now with the new way of voting, it might help his cause.
I think that we should set up the poll with summaries of why and vote on them like was suggested And make it a max number that we can vote in, like the maximum that could be elected to the real HOF over a 2 year period or something. We wouldn't want to dilute induction day by having 25 new members!
Melvin Leroy Harder (October 15, 1909 - October 20, 2002), nicknamed "Chief", was an American right-handed starting pitcher and coach in Major League Baseball who played his entire career with the Cleveland Indians. He spent 36 seasons overall with the Indians, as a player from 1928 to 1947 and as one of the game's most highly regarded pitching coaches from 1949-64. He set franchise records for wins (223), games started (433) and innings pitched (3426-1/3) which were later broken by Bob Feller, and still holds the club record of 582 career games pitched; he was among the American League's career leaders in wins (9th), games (8th) and starts (10th) when he retired. He was also an excellent fielder, leading the AL in putouts four times, then a record.
To the orginal topic poster: You need to specifiy which eligible individuals belong in the HOF. That obviously means Pete and Joe don't count.
But to answer your question, Bert Blyleven has more than enough numbers to be a first ballot HOFer (287 wins, 3701 K's, 60 shutouts; I don't any pitcher today could even get 15 shutouts in their whole lifetime) and every year that goes by that he does not make it is a joke. I guess it's that lack of name recognition and flashiness that has hurt him some.
<< <i>Doesnt Mark Grace also have comparable numbers to Donnie Baseball? >>
I don't know about Mark Grace, but Puckett and Sandberg have quite similar numbers. While Puckett does have those two championships, Mattingly could've won two championships just as easily had it not been for the 1994 strike or if he had stuck around just one more year. And Sandberg also matches Mattingly in terms of both having nine Gold Gloves and being MVPs.
On that subject, I think Puckett getting in on the first ballot was one of the biggest surprises in HOF history. Now, I thought Puckett was at least a reasonable HOF candidate, but first ballot???
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
Before reading everyone else's posts (because in the immortal words of metalmike I am two .40's down and technically "drumk"), I have to say Albert Belle and Andre Dawson.
Those who said Dale Murphy (at least one person wrote him, that I saw): I can understand why fans want him in, but if every nice guy who was a decent ball player made it into the HOF, there'd be about 4,000 people in the Hall.
Just my drumk 2 cents.
edited to add: People forget that Albert Belle was pretty much the Frank Thomas of the early '90's (before the Big Hurt got all the glory).
Ron Santo would be at the top of my list. I really think that playing for all of those subpar Cubs teams really have hurt him. Well that combined with the fact that you already have two Cubs out of that starting eight , Banks and Williams , already in there. But just look at his accomplishments. He made nine all star squads in his fifteen seasons. From 1963-69 he ranked in the top twenty five of the MVP voting. He hit for power being amongst the league leaders in homers for seven years and RBI for eight. At the same time he played excellent defense , winning five consecutive gold gloves in the sixties. He was the top third baseman in the NL throughout the sixties. Although not up to the defensive standards of Brooks Robinson , offensively Santo was his superior. Considering that he is in ill health it would be nice to see the guy go in while he is still alive to enjoy it. Maybe I have missed something but I always thought that Santo was a good ambassador of the game too. Anyways he fell five votes short this past veterans committee vote. That is a travesty that needs to be fixed.
Well, if it makes you feel any better, Mr. Santo declared when the Cubbies retired his number, "This is my Hall of Fame!". Apparently some players these days think that getting your number retired is actually the highest individual player honor, not the Hall of Fame.
Parker was a cocaine user. But, if the Hall applied these "character" standards uniformly, some of the best ballplayers of all time never would have made it (Cap Anson, Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Josh Gibson, Grover Alexander, Ed Delahanty, Kirby Puckett, ...).
There are so many guys who are not in the hall that are better than many undeserving 30's players.
Parker Evans Lynn D. Murphy T. Simmons etc....
Bill Madlock is interesting. When he stopped in 1987 he was still a productive and above average hitter at age 36. He had one season in his career where he was below average. Even his last three were above.
I see a lot of post 1980 names mentioned but it's a crock LEFTY O'DOUL and BUCK O'NEILL are not Hall of Famers.
The Hall has seen fit to elect the likes of Warren Giles, Will Harridge, George Weiss, and Effa Manley for their contributions off the field yet O'Doul and O'Neill both died without being honored.
According to a HOF spokesperson, the Hall doesn't recognize "ambassadors" in regards to eligibility.
O'Doul's contributions to the development of baseball in Japan are legendary and he was honored by election to the Japanese Baseball Hall of Fame in 2002.
Of the top ten all-time career batting average leaders, only Shoeless Joe Jackson and O'Doul (.349) are not in the Hall of Fame.
After appearing in Ken Burns' BASEBALL docu-series. O'Neill spent his twilight years as a tireless ambassador for the game of baseball signing autographs and most of all telling stories and keeping alive the memory of Negro League players long forgotten.
Do You Collect Baseball 1937,1965-94,2008-09? Or Regional Canadian Baseball Issues? Come be a contributor to the OPC Baseball Wiki. It's free and easy! OPeeChee.Wikispaces.Com
His career was way too short. He had 1140 hits for his career. He exceeded 120 hits only 4 times in his career. I will generously say he was a full time player for 5 seasons.
His average season was tremendous; he just did not have many of them.
I'll third Dave Parker. As for the coke use , yes indeed he was a user but how about Paul Molitor ? Molitor liked to partake in the old nose candy too. IMO Parker was far superior to Molitor. I'd take Parker over Molitor anyday. This is another fine example of the HALL electorate looking at things away from the field as criteria for induction. Also another example of the hypocrisy and favoritism of the Hall.
Minnie Minoso, Roger Maris, Tommy John, Rocky Colavito, Dolph Camilli, Luis Tiant, Gavy Cravath. Santo? I guess so, but that would be the 4th Cub (Jenkins, Williams, Banks) off a team that never won anything....
Comments
Lee
<< <i>Did anyone mention Al Oliver? >>
Probably the best hitter that is left out of great hitter conversations.
<< <i>Hodges because of this hitting, being a member of the Boys of Summer and managing the Miracle Mets >>
Gil Hodges is a no for me. His managerial career adds nothing IMHO, World Series win or not. His career record was only .467, with only 1 season of 84 or more wins.
As for his hitting record, he put up several good/great years, but falls just short IMHO. Only 370 career HR (despite playing in a small park), .273 career BA, career OPS+ of 120, no single season awards (never even finished top 6 in MVP), etc.
Tabe
<< <i>
<< <i>Hodges because of this hitting, being a member of the Boys of Summer and managing the Miracle Mets >>
Gil Hodges is a no for me. His managerial career adds nothing IMHO, World Series win or not. His career record was only .467, with only 1 season of 84 or more wins.
As for his hitting record, he put up several good/great years, but falls just short IMHO. Only 370 career HR (despite playing in a small park), .273 career BA, career OPS+ of 120, no single season awards (never even finished top 6 in MVP), etc.
Tabe >>
Have to agree here. Average isn't up to par. No single season awards. Those need to be there for a HOFer.
<< <i>I would like to think voters would be smart enough to realize how great Tim Raines was and vote him in to the HOF, but I don't think they are or will. >>
Raines is easily deserving. Compare his numbers to Gwynn's-they are virtually even if you use OBP instead of BA.
<< <i>
they are virtually even if you use OBP instead of BA. >>
That's not quite the same thing though. hahah.
Similar batters
Chili Davis (878)
Billy Williams (873) *
Luis Gonzalez (868)
Tony Perez (866) *
Dave Parker (853)
Al Kaline (846) *
Darrell Evans (843)
Harold Baines (840)
Steve Finley (835)
Andre Dawson (835)
Lee
<< <i>
NO!!! Not the Dennis Rodman of baseball!!!!
Dimes: 54S, 53P, 50P, 49S, 45D+S, 44S, 43D, 41S, 40D+S, 39D+S, 38D+S, 37D+S, 36S, 35D+S, all 16-34's
Quarters: 52S, 47S, 46S, 40S, 39S, 38S, 37D+S, 36D+S, 35D, 34D, 32D+S
74 Topps: 37,38,46,47,48,138,151,193,210,214,223,241,256,264,268,277,289,316,435,552,570,577,592,602,610,654,655
1997 Finest silver: 115, 135, 139, 145, 310
1995 Ultra Gold Medallion Sets: Golden Prospects, HR Kings, On-Base Leaders, Power Plus, RBI Kings, Rising Stars
<< <i> Dewey was a nice guy and had quite an arm to boot! Too bad the dumped him that last seaon with the o's I dont think he ever lead the league in anything, won a few gold gloves though >>
Homers in '81. I remember the cool 4 way sticker with Gorman, Murray and someone else. 22 in a strike shortened year if I remember right.
I really like Mattingly, which is amazing considering I hate the Yankees
Another guy that's interesting is Will Clark. Based on his first 5 years, I thought he was going to be in for sure. But, his power and games played really dropped off after that... again most likely due to injury. Still, he ended up with a life-time .303 avg and .384 obp, which isn't too shabby.
The guy I'm really interested to see about is Ichiro. I wonder how long he'll have to play garner serious consideration. To me, if he plays 3 more years after this and comes even close to replicating previous performance, she should be in for sure. Barring injury, he should reach 2000 hits and 1000 runs in 9 full years...an amazing feat. Add that to a decent SB total and SB%, in addition to being probably the best OF'er of the decade, I believe he'll make it in.
All-time favorite athletes:
Steve Sax, Steve Garvey, Larry Bird, Jerry Rice, Joe Montana, Andre Agassi, Karch Kiraly, Wayne Gretzky, Ichiro Suzuki, Andres Galarraga, Greg Maddux.
"Make the world a better place... punch both A-Rods in the face (Alex Rodriguez and Andy Roddick)!"
#1- Blyleven- its a crock he isn't in already.
#2- Al Oliver, he could of had a chance at 3000 hits if owners weren't colluding to keep older players from signing.
#3- Dave Parker again fell victim to some owner shananigans IMO preventing him from completing his career.
<< <i>My votes:
#1- Blyleven- its a crock he isn't in already.
#2- Al Oliver, he could of had a chance at 3000 hits if owners weren't colluding to keep older players from signing.
#3- Dave Parker again fell victim to some owner shananigans IMO preventing him from completing his career. >>
Blyleven should have been in a LONG time ago.
Also, another one that's confused me for years, is Riggs Stephenson. He played 14 years (1921-1934) with the White Sox and Cubs, and finished with a lifetime .336 batting average. Problem is, he played 100 games in a season only 5 times.
Steve
<< <i>Has any non-HOFer won as many batting titles (4) as Bill Madlock? >>
Nope. Bill Madlock has the most batting titles of any guy who's not in the Hall.
Right behind Madlock are a few other big names who have won 3 batting titles but aren't in the hall..
Pete Rose (68, 69, 73)
Tony Oliva (64, 65, 71)
Larry Walker (98, 99, 01), but he's not on the ballot yet.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
I think that we should set up the poll with summaries of why and vote on them like was suggested
And make it a max number that we can vote in, like the maximum that could be elected to the real HOF over a 2 year period or something. We wouldn't want to dilute induction day by having 25 new members!
He recently passed away.
Here are his stats:
Won/Loss 223-186
Earned run average 3.80
Pitched to many of the old time greats.
Mel Harder
Melvin Leroy Harder (October 15, 1909 - October 20, 2002), nicknamed "Chief", was an American right-handed starting pitcher and coach in Major League Baseball who played his entire career with the Cleveland Indians. He spent 36 seasons overall with the Indians, as a player from 1928 to 1947 and as one of the game's most highly regarded pitching coaches from 1949-64. He set franchise records for wins (223), games started (433) and innings pitched (3426-1/3) which were later broken by Bob Feller, and still holds the club record of 582 career games pitched; he was among the American League's career leaders in wins (9th), games (8th) and starts (10th) when he retired. He was also an excellent fielder, leading the AL in putouts four times, then a record.
But to answer your question, Bert Blyleven has more than enough numbers to be a first ballot HOFer (287 wins, 3701 K's, 60 shutouts; I don't any pitcher today could even get 15 shutouts in their whole lifetime) and every year that goes by that he does not make it is a joke. I guess it's that lack of name recognition and flashiness that has hurt him some.
Dimes: 54S, 53P, 50P, 49S, 45D+S, 44S, 43D, 41S, 40D+S, 39D+S, 38D+S, 37D+S, 36S, 35D+S, all 16-34's
Quarters: 52S, 47S, 46S, 40S, 39S, 38S, 37D+S, 36D+S, 35D, 34D, 32D+S
74 Topps: 37,38,46,47,48,138,151,193,210,214,223,241,256,264,268,277,289,316,435,552,570,577,592,602,610,654,655
1997 Finest silver: 115, 135, 139, 145, 310
1995 Ultra Gold Medallion Sets: Golden Prospects, HR Kings, On-Base Leaders, Power Plus, RBI Kings, Rising Stars
<< <i>Doesnt Mark Grace also have comparable numbers to Donnie Baseball? >>
I don't know about Mark Grace, but Puckett and Sandberg have quite similar numbers. While Puckett does have those two championships, Mattingly could've won two championships just as easily had it not been for the 1994 strike or if he had stuck around just one more year. And Sandberg also matches Mattingly in terms of both having nine Gold Gloves and being MVPs.
On that subject, I think Puckett getting in on the first ballot was one of the biggest surprises in HOF history. Now, I thought Puckett was at least a reasonable HOF candidate, but first ballot???
Dimes: 54S, 53P, 50P, 49S, 45D+S, 44S, 43D, 41S, 40D+S, 39D+S, 38D+S, 37D+S, 36S, 35D+S, all 16-34's
Quarters: 52S, 47S, 46S, 40S, 39S, 38S, 37D+S, 36D+S, 35D, 34D, 32D+S
74 Topps: 37,38,46,47,48,138,151,193,210,214,223,241,256,264,268,277,289,316,435,552,570,577,592,602,610,654,655
1997 Finest silver: 115, 135, 139, 145, 310
1995 Ultra Gold Medallion Sets: Golden Prospects, HR Kings, On-Base Leaders, Power Plus, RBI Kings, Rising Stars
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>
This guy, the Dennis Rodman of Baseball, gets first ballot induction into the Baseball Hall of Shame.
Dimes: 54S, 53P, 50P, 49S, 45D+S, 44S, 43D, 41S, 40D+S, 39D+S, 38D+S, 37D+S, 36S, 35D+S, all 16-34's
Quarters: 52S, 47S, 46S, 40S, 39S, 38S, 37D+S, 36D+S, 35D, 34D, 32D+S
74 Topps: 37,38,46,47,48,138,151,193,210,214,223,241,256,264,268,277,289,316,435,552,570,577,592,602,610,654,655
1997 Finest silver: 115, 135, 139, 145, 310
1995 Ultra Gold Medallion Sets: Golden Prospects, HR Kings, On-Base Leaders, Power Plus, RBI Kings, Rising Stars
Those who said Dale Murphy (at least one person wrote him, that I saw): I can understand why fans want him in, but if every nice guy who was a decent ball player made it into the HOF, there'd be about 4,000 people in the Hall.
Just my drumk 2 cents.
edited to add: People forget that Albert Belle was pretty much the Frank Thomas of the early '90's (before the Big Hurt got all the glory).
Again...just my drumk 2 cents.
Dimes: 54S, 53P, 50P, 49S, 45D+S, 44S, 43D, 41S, 40D+S, 39D+S, 38D+S, 37D+S, 36S, 35D+S, all 16-34's
Quarters: 52S, 47S, 46S, 40S, 39S, 38S, 37D+S, 36D+S, 35D, 34D, 32D+S
74 Topps: 37,38,46,47,48,138,151,193,210,214,223,241,256,264,268,277,289,316,435,552,570,577,592,602,610,654,655
1997 Finest silver: 115, 135, 139, 145, 310
1995 Ultra Gold Medallion Sets: Golden Prospects, HR Kings, On-Base Leaders, Power Plus, RBI Kings, Rising Stars
Didnt his coke habit and drug abuse cost him a lot of games; wasted talent.
my votes go to Ron Santo, Blyleven and Roger Maris.
BA: .290
HR: 339
RBI: 1493 (#47 all-time)
Hits: 2712 (#55 all-time)
2B: 526 (#32 all-time)
Tot Bases: 4405 (#43 all-time)
- NL MVP 1978 (2nd in voting 1985, 3rd in voting 1975, 1977)
- 7-time All-Star (game MVP 1979)
- 3-time Gold Glove winner (OF)
Parker was a cocaine user. But, if the Hall applied these "character" standards uniformly, some of the best ballplayers of all time never would have made it (Cap Anson, Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Josh Gibson, Grover Alexander, Ed Delahanty, Kirby Puckett, ...).
Parker
Evans
Lynn
D. Murphy
T. Simmons
etc....
Bill Madlock is interesting. When he stopped in 1987 he was still a productive and above average hitter at age 36. He had one season in his career where he was below average. Even his last three were above.
The Hall has seen fit to elect the likes of Warren Giles, Will Harridge, George Weiss, and Effa Manley for their contributions off the field yet O'Doul and O'Neill both died without being honored.
According to a HOF spokesperson, the Hall doesn't recognize "ambassadors" in regards to eligibility.
O'Doul's contributions to the development of baseball in Japan are legendary and he was honored by election to the Japanese Baseball Hall of Fame in 2002.
Of the top ten all-time career batting average leaders, only Shoeless Joe Jackson and O'Doul (.349) are not in the Hall of Fame.
After appearing in Ken Burns' BASEBALL docu-series. O'Neill spent his twilight years as a tireless ambassador for the game of baseball signing autographs and most of all telling stories and keeping alive the memory of Negro League players long forgotten.
Or Regional Canadian Baseball Issues?
Come be a contributor to the OPC Baseball Wiki. It's free and easy!
OPeeChee.Wikispaces.Com
His career was way too short. He had 1140 hits for his career. He exceeded 120 hits only 4 times in his career. I will generously say he was a full time player for 5 seasons.
His average season was tremendous; he just did not have many of them.
2 - Morganna
3 - San Diego Chicken
Santo? I guess so, but that would be the 4th Cub (Jenkins, Williams, Banks) off a team that never won anything....
<< <i>
Santo? I guess so, but that would be the 4th Cub (Jenkins, Williams, Banks) off a team that never won anything.... >>
hahahaha. True though!