I confess, I was a dipper
Klif50
Posts: 692 ✭✭✭✭
I now hang my head in shame but was just doing what the market required. I worked in a coin shop in Laurel, Maryland from 1977 to 1981 on a part time basis (I was full time military over at that NSA place). EVERY SILVER coin we bought hit the jewel luster. Every circulated Morgan or Peace dollar hit the jewel luster. Dip, swish, rinse, pat dry, coin after coin after coin after coin. No one wanted those old tarnished coins. Every proof Ike dollar hit the jewel luster since we knew they would develop that ugly white toning. Every unc CC GSA dollar was popped out and dipped. When people complain about things being dipped, I'll take a big chunk of the blame. Everyone wanted white coins, circulated or uncirculated. You couldn't give away toned pieces. We always had a jar of jewel luster open by the sink and the smell haunts me to this day.
I also learned how to effectively use "dellers darkner" to make those old large cents look better. No one ever thought anything about it, it was just business as usual.
Anyway, I'm much older, probably not wiser, and that coin shop has long since gone out of business (even though we did really well during the gold and silver Hunt brother debacle) and during my time I got to see some old time collections of coins and stamps that I'd only read about. I never owned them. Most of what I collected was type and Bust Halves. I religiously dipped all my bust halves and when I sold off my collection in 83 I had over 200 of them, no idea of the date or condition, I just bought every one of them I came across that I could afford but XF pieces were selling for $35 or less.
Anyway, feel free to curse me if you need to. I did not know what I was doing except doing what the boss said to do and what just about every other coin shop did.
Sorry
Cliff
I also learned how to effectively use "dellers darkner" to make those old large cents look better. No one ever thought anything about it, it was just business as usual.
Anyway, I'm much older, probably not wiser, and that coin shop has long since gone out of business (even though we did really well during the gold and silver Hunt brother debacle) and during my time I got to see some old time collections of coins and stamps that I'd only read about. I never owned them. Most of what I collected was type and Bust Halves. I religiously dipped all my bust halves and when I sold off my collection in 83 I had over 200 of them, no idea of the date or condition, I just bought every one of them I came across that I could afford but XF pieces were selling for $35 or less.
Anyway, feel free to curse me if you need to. I did not know what I was doing except doing what the boss said to do and what just about every other coin shop did.
Sorry
Cliff
6
Comments
People used to lacquer copper all the time and those people don't get cursed.
Garrow
<< <i>It's still the same today. And it's "market acceptable". There isn't a blast white coin in existance over 80 years old that hasn't been dipped, no matter what the owner says. Enjoy! >>
Incorrect.. Depends on how you define blast white!
<< <i>Depends on how you define blast white! >>
What are some commonly used definitions?
Well Cliff..I was a dipper too in the early 80's (dipped skoal tobacoo). But I'm reformed..just like you!
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>Who hasn't dipped is the question. >>
I haven't ever dipped but based on the results I've seen with modern proofs, I want to start
<< <i>
<< <i>Who hasn't dipped is the question. >>
I haven't ever dipped but based on the results I've seen with modern proofs, I want to start
DITTO
There is just no excuse for a hazy field on a modern proof.
Before giving to me the helpful guy at the shop dipped it right in front of me, just like it was a normal thing to do. He then handed to me saying "there, now it looks good".
anyhow. It's a terrible thing when today's standards are applied to yesterday's behavior. It was the thing to do at the time.
<< <i>It's still the same today. And it's "market acceptable". There isn't a blast white coin in existance over 80 years old that hasn't been dipped, no matter what the owner says. Enjoy! >>
Really?
<< <i>
<< <i>It's still the same today. And it's "market acceptable". There isn't a blast white coin in existance over 80 years old that hasn't been dipped, no matter what the owner says. Enjoy! >>
Really? >>
Absolutely.
Even with today's modern intercept shield holders, sonic slabbing, and all that crap, after a decade, toning begins to appear on coins. Anyone that collects blast white morgans and believes they were never dipped is living in a fantasy world--the same goes for all vintage coins. And before toning became popular, it was the collector base that insisted upon white coins, and it was the sellers that delivered, albeit with a little help from goddard's. The exceptions to this rule are so few and statistically tiny, they aren't worth mentioning. Everything should be considered dipped, and there's really no way to prove it one way or the other, except through the laws of chemistry and oxidation, which is a fact of life even the most stubborn defenders can never deny. Silver cannot exist in coin state for 100 years without reaction. Impossible.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It's still the same today. And it's "market acceptable". There isn't a blast white coin in existance over 80 years old that hasn't been dipped, no matter what the owner says. Enjoy! >>
Really? >>
Absolutely.
Even with today's modern intercept shield holders, sonic slabbing, and all that crap, after a decade, toning begins to appear on coins. Anyone that collects blast white morgans and believes they were never dipped is living in a fantasy world--the same goes for all vintage coins. And before toning became popular, it was the collector base that insisted upon white coins, and it was the sellers that delivered, albeit with a little help from goddard's. The exceptions to this rule are so few and statistically tiny, they aren't worth mentioning. Everything should be considered dipped, and there's really no way to prove it one way or the other, except through the laws of chemistry and oxidation, which is a fact of life even the most stubborn defenders can never deny. Silver cannot exist in coin state for 100 years without reaction. Impossible. >>
Lots of Morgans sat in bank vaults in dry climates, and lots of them survived blast white. Most GSAs in holder have never been dipped. There is no incentive to do so when the price differences in the lower MS grades is so small. What coin doc would take the time and risk to carefully crack open the GSA holder, dip the coin, then carefully reseal the holder, just to get $10 or $20 more for it? If either the cracking or resealing went badly, they would lose far more money than they might possibly gain. If they got a reputation for selling resealed coins, they could no longer sell to most audiences.
The government certainly did not dip the GSAs. There would be evidence, witnesses, invoices for chemicals, if any government approved dipping went on. Any one who bought one directly from the sale, can be assured that their GSA coin is original. The toned coins were sold separately for a discount.
Many Redfield Morgans also survived undipped. Hoarders had no incentive to dip their coins. There have been plenty of silver dollar hoards and other hoards.
<< <i>The exceptions to this rule are so few and statistically tiny, they aren't worth mentioning. >>
<< <i>Are the GSA and redfield hoards really statistically tiny and not worth mentioning? >>
Yes. And, I do not hold the GSA dollars in the same regard as others, I guess. I've seen some nasty looking cleaned garbage in those holders, many circulated and toned, and the brilliant ones are baggy and suspect in many ways. But, that's just my opinion. I'm not going to change my mind that 99.9% of all vintage silver coins have been dipped if they are white, and many have been previously dipped even when they're toned. When this dipping business was in full swing, everything toned got a dip, but then people started retoning them, and now when people dip their toners, sometimes it becomes obvious they are overdipped and grey. Ooops. Time to retone them again. These "hoards" you speak of, sitting in bank bags, lol, yes TINY STATISTICALLY TINY SMALL FRACTION of what is out there.
<< <i>
<< <i>Are the GSA and redfield hoards really statistically tiny and not worth mentioning? >>
Yes. And, I do not hold the GSA dollars in the same regard as others, I guess. I've seen some nasty looking cleaned garbage in those holders, many circulated and toned, and the brilliant ones are baggy and suspect in many ways. But, that's just my opinion. I'm not going to change my mind that 99.9% of all vintage silver coins have been dipped if they are white, and many have been previously dipped even when they're toned. When this dipping business was in full swing, everything toned got a dip, but then people started retoning them, and now when people dip their toners, sometimes it becomes obvious they are overdipped and grey. Ooops. Time to retone them again. These "hoards" you speak of, sitting in bank bags, lol, yes TINY STATISTICALLY TINY SMALL FRACTION of what is out there. >>
You are entitled to your opinion.
For pre-Morgan coinage, it is may even be accurate.
However, most Morgans did not circulate. The average uncirculated coin is MS63 or 64. It just isn't worth the time or effort to dip the common date median grade coins. For what? $3 extra if they can find a gullible buyer? Most docs are too busy going after big game, not $5 little fish.
In my opinion, the undipped white population of Morgans is a huge number of coins. There may be a tiny handful of dipped coins in the GSA holders. Show me three images online of obviously dipped GSAs in holders and I might start to think there is a percentage of such coins. Otherwise, I think I will continue to think such rants are rubbish.
<< <i>Many Redfield Morgans also survived undipped. >>
This one...
was white when I bought it. It's toning nicely now.
on old metal antique items its called patina.....
a play on words just like "Tone" is but in the antique world its not only accepted it greatly drives prices and desire..
AL
<< <i>I'm just glad to see collectors appreciating the natural process of oxidation....
on old metal antique items its called patina.....
a play on words just like "Tone" is but in the antique world its not only accepted it greatly drives prices and desire..
AL >>
Yeah, try to sell a coin on fleabay and refer to the toning as "TARNISH"! It made me laugh, a few days ago, I was browsing ebay and found a newbie selling silver eagles in 10 coin lots. She described them as follows "8 of these appear to be uncirculated but 2 of them have horrible tarnish"--the toning was quite beautiful (and NT) and I had intended to buy them but just forgot about it, until now. The "tarnished" eagles were also uncirculated, but it demonstrates the sentiment that most people new to the hobby still have--if a coin isn't blast white it must be circulated, and it certainly isn't desirable.
The one coin that rest in my mind as not having been dipped was a 1895-S Morgan which had an exceptional strike and was toned a pleasing black with purple underneath. We talked our selves in to believe it was a branch mint proof and Walter Breen take a look at it. He pronounced it a gem proof like business strike, an opinion that Wayne Miller agreed with. I really wanted to dip that thing but the boss held out and sold it for the princely sum of 3k. This was before the greysheet started listing MS60 and MS65 grades and everything was circ, XF, slider, unc, choice or gem. That was a huge sum to pay for such a coin in 1978. Some times it's a good thing to tell the exhuberant younger people to slow down and wait a few minutes before dipping the next coin.
Cliff
I was re-reading this thread from 2007 and thinking about all the coins I dipped early in my career working in a coin shop. Everything needed dipping (except copper) and that is where it would go directly after being bought. Everything looked so much nicer without that nasty tarnish.
How times change. I am just bringing this out to put the old days back in the spot light. It was the thing to do at the time. Not so much now. Collecting changes over the years (how many old copper collectors still lacquer their early large cents?).
If I was bad bringing this really old thread back to light, sorry.
It's only "bad" for people who don't realise that it's an ancient thread that's been bumped, and who then attempt seance-like to communicate with members who are now long-gone.
WARNING: THIS IS A NECRO THREAD. PLEASE CHECK THE DATE ON A POST BEFORE REPLYING TO IT.
There. That ought to do it.
Now, on the general subject.
Non-collectors often wonder why coin collectors place a premium on never-been-dipped coins. And the answer is much the same as for anything else we place a premium on: supply and demand. Because so many coins were dipped decades ago, the few survivors that never got the treatment are, relatively, rare.
It's also a one-way trip: anyone can dip a coin at any time, and many well-meaning people do, but it's not possible to un-dip a coin. The percentage of never-dipped coins is therefore always going down. They are therefore getting rarer every year.
This, I suppose, is an unforeseen advantage of the high prevalence of slabbing in the current market: a slabbed coin is much less likely to get dipped or polished by a well-meaning but clueless heir before being sold. So hopefully, future generations of collectors won't find more and more of the top-tier coins getting ruined.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD.
People buy shiny just like paint on cars.
After dipping the MOST important step is neutralization of the dip and a proper rinse,,,,,,
Artificially white.....
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
I love to "Dip"!
Great differences. Many coins I dip before sending to PCGS. Have, so far, been successful! No details.
So, I must be doing something right?
Many times, just before I send out modern clad Quarters, (W's), with haze. The dip would help tremendously!
Twice, I hit ms 67 grades.
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.I have a 1921 Peace Dollar that I bought because of it's exceptional strike and lack of any dings on Liberty's face or in the fields or on the reverse as well. The coin is not blast white and to me looks natural. So, I submitted it to ANACS on a show freebe and it came back a disappointing MS62. Could it be that they downgraded this coin because it has signs of being dipped in the past? Perhaps I should crack and dip in acetone to see if it brightens the coin and resubmit?
Thanks to the OP for his historical perspective on dipping of silver coins. While I have only dipped coins in acetone which is not considered a dip by most people as it only removes surface issues without effecting the underlying surface luster.
Shame on you Mister😱
Now, all we need is for the coin doctors to come forward and admit all they did.....
1977-1981 just be glad you weren't hauling buckets to the refinery
Actually we never got enough bags to go to the refinery but did make many trips to the bigger shops in Maryland. I had one customer, that always came in and backed up to the counter and he would have a note of how much silver he wanted and the right amount of cash. He always wore a trench coat and I referred to him as "sneaky" he never said much, just backed up, waited while I counted out his silver (usually $200 worth at a time in dimes) I'd hand it off and it would disappear in his trenchcoat. He did this every week or so. When silver blossomed and was up around 30 to 35x times face he brought in 6 bags in a shopping cart and I'd estimate he had between 8k and 10k invested in each bag. We bought the 6 bags at 35x face in cash. He took the cash and disappeared. We were stuck holding the bags too long when it crashed and he came back in and bought most of them back around 18x face. He made a good profit at the time.
During the run up of prices we had tons of people bring in silver ware sets for cash, one lady brought in a tobacco bag of gold teeth her grandfather had liberated during World War II (hated those as I had to pick out the teeth parts and then weigh the gold to buy them). Most interesting thing was the lady that brought in a sterling silver cremation urn. I opened it and it had ashes. I told her i couldn't buy it. She asked if I had a bathroom she could use. Heard the toilet flush about 3 times, she came out, rinsed it out and said "I never liked the S*B anyway". Bought it to the tune of 600 or $700.
It wasn't unusual for a divorcing couple to come in, sell their wedding rings and split the money (her's was usually heavier and had a diamond or two (we took off weight for the diamonds and offered them back to them if they wanted since the gold was worth more) and then they split the money and were off on the separate ways.
Saddest thing was to see VF Barber Halves hit the smelting pot. Greysheet on common dates was around $17 or $18 dollars, melt was $21 or $22 so away they went. Just before the crash Morgan dollars that weren't culls were selling, over the counter at $50 each, the next week you couldn't get $25 for one.
Interesting times.
How costly is an exorcism?
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Every time I stepped into my dealers coin shop and went into his back room private office there were all the necessary type of accoutrements all over his desk in which to enhance inventory. He never tried to hide them and I thought it was the normal tools of the trade. I was green, had no idea what they exactly did to the coins, glad I never bought anything from him lol.
"Dipping" can sometimes be a reasonable course of action for ugly-toned silver coins.
Dipping brand new Silver Eagles can also help prevent the future formation of "milk spots" (so long as the coins are handled and stored appropriately).
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@basestealer said:
If I were looking for toned coins I would add searches with the word “tarnished”.
Dipping conservation normal part of the biz. Nothing wrong with it. Just do a quick in and out (tap water) for few seconds, rinse real good, pat dry with soft cloth. Many coins need a dip now and then especially if went bad in the holder.
Never really was a fan of tarnished coins. It results from exposure to the atmosphere and will get worse with time. Prefer material that has super, cartwheel luster (PQ). So do most off the bourse.
Who knows? It could have been something else, strike, marks. Try a dip if you think will improve chances. But if it’s already dull well…probably best it’s gonna be. Dipping is for removing tarnish, haze. If luster already gone….well no restoring it.
Original surfaces are now the trend. The biggest loss for the hobby was the matte proof dipping. Hard to find matte proof gold with original surfaces now and gold doesn't tone